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- Pardon the editing conflict we just had. I just archived everything because your move deleted all history of prior discussions on other talk pages. I myself made the same mistake when I moved things around from "Cyberpunk fashion" to "Cyber (subculture)" a few months ago. It's too late to undue my error, but I was in the middle of trying to fix yours. Hope you don't mind me stepping on your toes here. --Cast (talk) 06:42, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
- I've just had to undue your edit. I'll grant that there was not much discussion before this move took place, but the editor waited several days between suggesting it and acting on it, during which no one responded. I briefly considered responding myself, but did not because I considered it a non-controversial move. Before we get into an edit war, lets please discuss this.
- Now, regardless of the particular way this subculture has evolved and developed, there are sources on it, and no, it does not matter that you don't consider "cybergoth" to be "goth." Besides, that is entirely moot. If it were goth, it wouldn't be called "cybergoth". It would just be called "goth". The existence of two different groups which share a common name, does not lend itself to the argument that one is non-existent because you can't share a syllable. That's like saying "german shepherds" don't exist because "german shepherds" are not dogs. --Cast (talk) 07:00, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
If it were goth, it wouldn't be called "cybergoth". Funny guy, the term CyberGOTH implicates, that this fucking culture is a part of the Goth subculture. And this is not the case. I don't think that there is any reliable, scientific source. --Ada Kataki (talk) 07:08, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
- So, by your interpretations, goths must inexorably have something to do with goths? Does that apply to all words which end the same or only to goth? Also, is there a minimum amount of letters that have to be the same to make the two unendingly twined? CybergothiChé (talk) 23:43, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
- The term Cybergoth may confuse outsiders into thinking so that the two cultures are mutually entwined, but that is where this article comes in. If it is not true, we can present sourced statements from verifiable researchers to present neutral information with, thus resolving any misconceptions. A case in point would be that some might assume cyberpunk is associated with punk rock. They would be wrong, but this is easily explained in the cyberpunk article. --Cast (talk) 07:15, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
- Of course I understand the difference between a youth movement and a genre. I'm expressing that similar terms may breed confusion, but the point of a wikipedia article is to provide facts and illuminate the minds of readers; and the best way to do this is to tackle a subject head on. Your rejection of the very concept of "cybergoth" does not mean it will evaporate into oblivion. Others will learn of the term, investigate it and either a) learn about it on wikipedia thanks to accurate reporting by dedicated editors; or b) learn about it from another source which may not be as verifiable and may present dubious information which you may hate even more. I'm sure you wouldn't prefer the latter, so why not let us give the former a shot? The previous article for "cyber (subculture)" left much to be desired. As the Aryder779 pointed out, the only section which contained verifiable sources was the section on Cybergoth. More than anything, there doesn't seem to be much proof that "cyber subculture" exists. Cybergoth, on the other hand, has at least received mention in literary books. The Goth Bible, was, I admit, a sly work of self depreciation in regards to Goth subculture in general, verging on parody at times, but it was written with the intent to educate outsiders on the concept and did acknowledge the existence of cybergoth. And of course, there are other sources currently listed. What about Dark Glamour, or the article "Dead fashionable", from The Age? They seem reputable.--Cast (talk) 07:40, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for your help with this, Cast. I'm sorry Ada Kataki, I know you have strong feelings on this matter, but the page at present clearly specifies the origins of cybergoth in club kid, raver, and rivethead culture. The page indicates that the relationship to goth subculture is indirect. Steele and Borden trace a lineage for cybergoth, and both are reputable sources, and Dark Glamour is published by Yale University Press, so it's definitely a reliable source. I know you have some problems with the "no original research" and "verifiability" standards at Wikipedia, and I'm in sympathy with that, but those are the relevant guidelines here. Aryder779 (talk) 15:44, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
- Administrator note: I've removed this discussion from WP:RM, as there seems to be more of a consensus to leave the article at the current name.--Aervanath talks like a mover, but not a shaker 18:52, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
- I'm going to have to totally agree. Looks like this page needs to be all but completely rewritten. For one thing "cyber-goth" is a mixture of "cyber-punk" and "romantic-goth." As while there is a dash of the raver scene mixed in, this article focuses too heavily on that aspect. --Zephyrxero (talk) 18:29, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
The core problem here seems to be the arbitrary - and in most cases inappropriate - merging of Cyberpunk fashion, Cyberkid, and Cyber (subculture) into Cybergoth. I have to declare an interest in as much as being active on the London club/rave scene and - event dependent - wearing what is is generally known on the scene as "cyberwear." There are clear lines of demarcation between those who adopt such clothing for specific occasions, those who affect them all the time, and yet further those who do so and actually define themselves - if at all - as "cyber," "cybergoth," or "cyberpunk." It's worth noting that Googling on Dontstayin.com - the premier UK clubbing networking/discussion site, returns the following hits:
- "Cyberpunk"/"cyber punk" - 32
- "Cybergoth"/"cyber goth" - 923
- "Cyberwear"/"cyber wear - 749
- "Cyber" - 5,160
Clearly "Cyberpunk" isn't even in the running, while "Cyber Goth" is skewed by being an actual "brand name," both of clothing () and a club night. Most people on the scene would emphatically reject "cybergoth" as a descriptive of what they are wearing, so lumping the various concepts under that title here is just plain wrong. This is even more so, given that it has been acknowledged above that "cybergoth" as a distinct subculture drew on elements of the earlier club scene/cyberkids/etc. Reviewing the previous unmerged content, it's clear that the original Cyber (subculture) page - although it clearly needed work - was more approrpaite in that it treated Cyberkid and Cybergoth as subsets. There are clearly thematic crossovers, but using "cybergoth" as the overarching term can't be justified. Nick Cooper (talk) 17:26, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
—––––------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hmm the Italian Cyber page seems to be structured more or less following your guidelines..Honestly I agree that the whole page should be restructured: Cyber--->Cyberkids/cybergoths/cyberpunks and not Cybergoth-->Cyber/cyberkids/cyberpunk
Ref: wikipedia ITA
wintermute § Ale §
- I see your point, but Wikipedia depends on reliable sources. Google searches are not a reliable source, and personal experience is original research and POV. Cybergoth is a term with a distinct lineage supported by more than one book and a few articles. "Cyber," as a subculture, is not. Aryder779 (talk) 16:51, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
- Also - 1) in my experience, "cyber" is often used in the goth scene and outside it as an abbreviation for "cybergoth". The "-goth" suffix is implied. 2) It's also not at all surprising that "cyber" would be the most widely used word on Dontstayin.com, because it's common to all the other uses, and it's very telling that "cybergoth" is the second most common usage. 3) I'm sure there are many people who like to wear cybergear who don't identify with "goth" at all, and many goths don't recognize the scene as having anything to do with the Gothic subculture, but that's a continuing event in the development of the subculture. When sources start to document a separate subculture evolving from cybergoth that is no longer goth, yet separate from the rave scene, it can start to be covered on Wikipedia. Aryder779 (talk) 17:10, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
I've deleted the "cyberkids" section because it was comprised of original research and had been tagged for two months. If someone wishes to recreate the Cyberkid or Cyber (subculture) articles separately from this page, that might be a way of restoring that information. I think that this article should be moved towards inline citations and reliable sources for all of its claims, as per Wikipedia guidelines. Aryder779 (talk) 17:52, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
Rearranging "parent" subcultures in intro blurb
188.8.131.52 has rearranged the "parent" subcultures in the intro blurb to put ravers first, claiming "he point is that they're more Ravers than Goths... the term cyberGOTHS is misleading". This argument has already taken place — just look at this Talk page. :p For better or worse, the subculture/style is best known as "cybergoth", and it borrows from all of the mentioned subcultures. Let's just keep the list of "parents" in alphabetical order, since there really isn't a strong case for giving any of them greater billing. - Korpios (talk) 17:55, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Complaint about this page
Sorry, I put this in the wrong place before:
I haven't been back to this page for a while, and have just found that cyber has been pointed to cybergoth. I realise this is because cybergoth was more cited, but that doesn't mean cyber should redirect to it - they're just not the same thing.
Aryder779 - I know personal point of view can't be taken into account, things should be researched, but aren't you letting POV get in the way in deciding something you (from the sound of things) know little about just doesn't exist? Shouldn't you have carried out some proper research before essentially stating that cybers and cyberkids don't exist? There is, to be fair, certainly bits where the various sub-cultures blend, and I wouldn't say there's a highly unified definition of any part of it, but there is still very much a distinction between cyber and cybergoth, some people would very much consider themselves only one or the other. If only one label were to be used, then Cyber would be the appropriate catch-all I would think, as surely that covers more wide-ranging possibilities (e.g. a cybergoth might quite happily call themselves cyber, but a cyber would never refer to themselves as cybergoth.) Also, I've seen plenty of pages on Wikipedia on far more important topics with uncited information and simply tags to note these points in place. Wouldn't that have been more appropriate than wiping out the information that was here before?
For what it's worth, I've got an old magazine with a whole feature on cyberkids from years back. I was intending to come on here and clear up the cyberkid section with some extra info and citations from this article, as a start. Now the whole thing's been wiped out? Not sure I have the will, or the time, to completely recreate the cyber page. It was a work in progress, and it wasn't complete or very good, but it was something. I realise my subculture is a tiny sub-sub-culture, but it was really nice to have something to point people to as a starting point for an explanation, I could correct some of the points I didn't agree with. Now it's just flat-out wrong.
Also, when you're discussing topics like this, i.e. current, changing social matters, what counts as "real" research and personal research? I mean, if I go out at the weekend, and interview all of my cyber friends, I guess that'd be personal research. But let's say I then make a Cyber site somewhere with the intent of documenting the existence of cyber and what defines someone as cyber, including videos/photos/text/interviews/surveys/whatever. And then someone else cites it all on the page, is that suddenly OK? It seems at least as legit as that goth book thing. Let's face it, this isn't something that's going to have a research study done on it, so it'd be useful to know what counts as relevant proof for this topic.
P.S. In Jimmy Wales' own words: "I believe that Wikipedia keeps getting better. That's the whole idea. One person writes something, somebody improves it a little, and it keeps getting better, over time." I don't really see how this calls for deleting long-standing sections or pages because you can't find proof, but also can't find any proof to the contrary! A personal feeling that "cyber" means "cybergoth" doesn't count. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 13:11, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
TimeSplitters 2 featured a lot of CyberGoth and CyberPunk elements. To a lesser extent, TimeSplitters 1 and TimeSplitters: Future Pefect did as well. The recurring character "Chastity" is, perhaps, the best example from the video game series. 220.127.116.11 (talk) 17:56, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
The Distinct Cyberpunk subculture and fashion
It's troubling that the small but significant Cyberpunk subculture is lumped in with Cybergoth. Besides being just plain inaccurate, Cybergoth has very little to do with Cyberpunk other than name. Any attempt to make a separate page for the Cyberpunk subculture has been met with this broad generalization, and any attempt to edit the page on Cybergoth to include Cyberpunk has been swiftly deleted. To set the record straight, here are some of the differences between the two subcultures.
Cyberpunk as a subculture and fashion style takes inspiration from the Cyberpunk literary subgenre pioneered in the 1980s. Cyberpunk values form over function and almost never uses hair falls, fake respirators, or anything impractical and without use. There is little to no influence from the Rave subculture.
Cyberpunk fashion has somewhat distinct time periods and variants- traditional cyberpunk fashion was often taken straight from the pages of cyberpunk novels, and usually consisted of black jeans, black T-shirts, black leather jackets, mirrorshades, and cowboy boots. The short-lived Cyberdelic movement largely concerned itself with using drugs to establish a greater connection to computer networks and improve brainpower. The 1999 film The Matrix influenced cyberpunk fashion greatly, importing elements of Rivethead and fetish fashion such as Industrial music, latex clothing, and trench coats. Newer cyberpunk fashion has largely been defined online through the use of web forums, imageboards, and the microblogging site Tumblr. The latest incarnation tends toward a more urban aesthetic with Korean-style jackets, metallic materials, and tactical elements such as MOLLE webbing.
Cyberpunk hairstyles are cut short for both sexes, with mohawks, side-shaves, and buzzed or shaved heads common for both sexes. Females tend to die their hair blue or white, while males usually keep their natural coloration. Makeup is generally not used by males, and is either subtle or tends toward a "war paint" look, such as the mask pattern worn by Pris in Blade Runner or facial recognition camouflage.
Mirrorshades are possibly the most distinct fashion item of Cyberpunk, and tend toward either Aviator or tactical wraparound styles. Footwear includes cowboy boots, tabi shoes, combat boots, tanker boots, jungle boots, and generally avoids stylistic straps and buckles. Clothing is more often than not simple and black, and tends toward tough materials such as leather, rip-stop cotton, and ballistic nylon. Some may wear pouches and webbing, usually on a MOLLE system, to carry gear.
Artist and "style technician" Zoetica Ebb is considered a major influence on cyberpunk fashion, and Industrial bands such as Front 242 and KMFDM are recognized as trendsetters as well. Cyberpunk music is already well-covered, with Front Line Assembly, Headscan, Access to Arasaka, Dope Stars Incorporated, and Cut.Rate.Box. expressing overt cyberpunk themes in their lyrics and style.
Drugs are considered a tool by the cyberpunk subculture. Nootropics and other "smart drugs" are popular, particularly racetams. Amphetamines and designer drugs are also popular. MDMA is largely rejected due to it's Rave connotations.
Cyberpunk philosophy borrows heavily from the Hacker subculture, with the rallying cry of "Information Wants To Be Free". Cyberpunks may be heavily political or nihilistic, though most agree that Net Neutrality and internet piracy are important topics. DIY is borrowed from Punk, and focuses on recycling discarded technology. Lately, Transhumanism has exerted tremendous influence on the cyberpunk community and continues to be a subject of interest.
Technology is important, and while most have little to no hacking ability, a strong understanding of technology is generally common in the subculture. Especially important to cyberpunk is the use and development of Virtual Reality and Augmented Reality, as well as brain-computer interface.
Body modification is not uncommon, though most is regarded as still too crude or nonfunctional. Cyberpunk, Biohacker and DIY bionics pioneer Lepht Anonym serves as an example of cyberpunk body modification by implanting magnets and electronics into her own body in order to expand her senses. Many eagerly await the day when bionic augmentation becomes practical and affordable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gunhead2077 (talk • contribs) 09:20, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
- Very interesting. I was looking for information on this many months ago without any luck. It's funny how I found it on a talk page of an irrelevant article on Wikipedia. I totally agree that "cybergoth" whatever it might be bears zero relevance. Props on the insightful post. Whenever I need answers, I oughta purposely look in the wrong places from now on. ;)--18.104.22.168 (talk) 20:10, 3 July 2012 (UTC)