Talk:Döner kebab/Archive 1

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donairs in nova scotia

No mention of the fanatic devotion to donairs in Nova Scotia? My wife (bluenoser like I) would inflict severe trauma to an unsuspecting victim to get her hands on a donair. Also, the donairs that I grew up with look different. Will try to find a digital pic that I took last year.

Jerry Deveau -Sleepingbear (13:31, November 24, 2004)

I'm from Nova Scotia, I would add something about it, but I don't know what to say. All I know is that I can get a donair just about everywhere around here, but once you start going west it becomes harder and harder to get one, all the way to just about impossible. I don't know the history or what makes them special in Nova Scotia. -- elykyllek 05:02, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)
I'm skeptical about the "donair" sauce being made with vinager. The vinager would cause the sauce to curdle into an unapetizing mess. I'm guessing the sauce is made using yogurt/Kefir to give it an acidic tang. Klonimus 06:35, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
No, it's true. (It might constitute part of a new solution to the Incompatible Food Triad puzzle.) You can find recipes online. You use condensed milk, though, not just milk. Possibly that, or the high amount of sugar, prevents the milk from ccurdling--maybe milk needs a higher water content to curdle. Anyhow, I've made it successfully from condensed milk, sugar, vinegar, and garlic powder, and it does work, for whatever reason. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 136.142.22.9 (talkcontribs) 03:14, September 17, 2005 (UTC)

Unify döner kebab, gyro, and shwarma articles?

Gyro, döner kebab, and shwarma are really the same food under different names, with regional/national variants. Shouldn't these three pages be unified?--Macrakis 04:03, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Shwarma and döner kebab are basicly the same. Gyro's sandwhiches are sometimes made using meat prepared in the Shwarma style, but at least in the US, often made from strips of spiced and salted ground lamb that are cooked on a grill top.
In the U.S. Most shops call this product shawarma unless the owners are specifically turkish in which case they will call it döner kebab, or shwarma because that's what everyone else calls it. In israel this product is called shawarma. Klonimus 06:33, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
I feel like they taste different to me. Comparing what I've eaten in Germany and in the U.S., I must say I have not been able to find anything that comes close to the awesomeness of the doener kebab. Kwikstah
I comnpletely agree. Shawarma that I've had are nothing like the doeners that I grew to love in Germany. --Morbid-o 18:28, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

After reading the Doner kebab, Kebab, Gyros, and Shawarma articles & ‘talks’, I have come to the following conclusions. It is significant that despite its diverse heritage, the fast food concept of meat grilled on a vertical spit and served in bread with generally Mediterranean garnish/sauces is taking over the world regardless of whether you call it a Doner, Kepap, Durum, Shwarma, or Gyros! As such, I think this concept deserves a unified page that then describes the various varieties both in preparation and name. And, yes, I know this may make many Greeks, Turks, and Arabs angry who believe their version of this concept is the first, best, or even the only true way to make it.

I smell a thesis or dissertation in there! I can just see the color-coded maps indicating where it’s called what and the most popular preparations. Just think of the historical, cultural, culinary, and even business aspects that could be studied. And, of course, it would have to involve travel around the world! Hmm, where could I get a grant to study this? --Froese 16:43 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I do not think the heritage is "diverse". Indeed, the heritage is common -- they all come from the Turkish döner kebab (and I am Greek!). Indeed, an older name for gyros in Greece is "doner" (ντονερ). I hadn't heard the name "durum" before -- where is that used, and what does it refer to? --Macrakis 17:16, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
I have seen the term "Durum" being used in numerous Turkish restaurants here in Germany (Cologne, to be exact). The dish, however, was called "Döner Dürum" - i.e., the two terms must be used in combination. --Vargher 12:45 (GMT), 30 Dec 2005
Dürüm means something like "rolled", so I would guess that Döner Dürüm is a rolled-up sandwich of Döner Kebab meat. Does that correspond to what you see in Köln? --Macrakis 15:34, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Hmm, that's a good question: to be honest, I have not yet ordered a "döner dürüm" as such yet: I have simply seen the term multiple times in a number of restaurants. I myself have only eaten the "normal" döner kebab so far, which is sold in the ordinary sandwich form. Perhaps anyone else has actually seen a real Döner Dürüm? I can't be the only one living in Cologne who posts on this page, after all. --Vargher 23:48 (GMT), 1 Dec 2005
I´m from a town in central Germany where all mentioned varieties are served. From my huge - döner-expericence


I'm sorry but the above is flat out nonsense. While I cannot speak for the taste of Shwarma, Donner kebabs and gyros are no more the same thing than a ham sandwhich and a bacon sandwhich are the same thing. Purely for reasons of accuracy, you cannot claim that the three are "the same thing" even if they do share a basic concept (meat cooked on a vertical, rotating spit and served in pita), they are not. --Madashell 29 December 2005

They are not the same thing, they are closely related things. A ham sandwich and a bacon sandwich are not the same thing, either, I agree, but they are both sandwiches. Those things that are common to them belong on the "sandwich" page, not on separate ham and bacon sandwich pages. Doner/gyros/shwarma are not only very similar in result, they share a common origin. And the funny thing is, though people consider them to be different, the definitions of what exactly they are vary considerably from region to region. It would be interesting to know where you have observed these dishes, and what the differences are in your area. --Macrakis 17:16, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
I would like to chime in that I was quite frankly offended when I browsed this article and saw that there was a motion to combine the three. I do not know about Shwarma, but I live in Germany and have a Döner stand and a Gyro stand nearby, and what comes out of them is miles different. Gyros use a differently seasoned chunk of meat (and never chicken meat, as döners often do), and usually only come with tzatziki sauce that is more acidic and less sweet and garlicy than the garlic sauce that comes on döners, as well as in pita instead of the turkish flatbread that döners come in. Also thinking about it (I have never really picked out the differences between the two), döners like you say have pickled red and white cabbage in them which Gyros do not. Most of the döners around here also have a orangish herb sauce option and a red sharp sauce option, while Gyros have only tzatziki. Also, to answer an earlier question, yes, a Döner Dürüm is a Kebap rolled in thin white bread, usually with a bit more filling than a Kebap would have.--80.144.190.225 16:23, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Please read the discussion on Talk:Shawarma. It is true that in a given place, shawarma and gyros may be different in some systematic way. However, in some other place, they may be different in a completely different way -- or may be exactly the same thing. Wikipedia needs to discuss all this in a universal way. Here in Boston (Massachusetts), for example, I have never seen pickled cabbage in any of these sandwiches. --Macrakis 17:48, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

removal of picture of Donor kebab meat being cut from spit

if you look in the recent history (see date below) you will notice that a picture was removed with no reason given, seeing that it is logical to show the meat being cooked (the meat being the a key component of the Donor kebab) in an article about Donor kebabs the picture ought to be restored.

If no one can give a convincing reason why the picture should be out then I think it would be better to have it in, especially as the picture would be an aid to recognition for those who have trouble putting a face to the name/name to the face and especially for those who have not seen the vertical rotating spit of the Donor kebab. If possible, the picture should be made into a split picture showing both meat and chicken spits.


--I 15:05, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

who is passionate about Kebabs and has tried them in different shops all over Sydney

-- I've never seen doner kebabs sold in partitioned trays and I'm in the UK. Is this a regional thing? Secretlondon 19:53, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

I think it is. I saw "donner meat and chips" and "tray of donner meat" from time to time when at University in the Midlands, despite never having encountered them at home in the South. Personally, I consider them both (especially the latter) to be something of an abomination. PeteVerdon 15:07, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Two Dots over the letter 'o'

I don't think the squiggle over the "o" in Doner ought to be there. Any opinions? --Khendon 20:13, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

If there's a squiggle over the "o", there is some problem with your browser/font/OS. It should be two dots. --Macrakis 21:44, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I was being a bit whimsical. I meant the two dots, yes. I don't think they belong on the English word "Doner". --Khendon 07:15, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

The 2 dots come from the turkish to turn "döner" = "it turns". since it is a foreign word in english, it makes sense to write it both ways, just as "naive" can be written with 2 dots over the 'i'.--Brallan 23:37, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually it comes from ther German language. The "Ö" represents an OE placement in a word. These "oomlaughts" (incorrect spelling I do believe) replace the "ae", "ue" and "oe" in certain words. For our example, Döner is really Doener. Both are pronounced the same (a sound that I cannot find a word to mimic it with, the oe I mean, the German Ö in Döner.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.209.93.223 (talkcontribs) 15:33, January 5, 2006 (UTC)

No, it comes from Turkish, which shares the letter ö with German. The fact that this made the word easy to pronounce in German may have helped it become accepted there, but the word döner has no intrinsic German meaning. ProhibitOnions 19:06, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
well, the correct spelling is Umlauts...
it is pronounced similar to the 'u' in 'urgent'. --141.84.69.20 15:11, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Oltu?

What is the "special L shaped Oltu shish along the surface" mentioned in the article. A google search didn't give me any clue. It needs some sort of explanation for that information to be worth including. Ilkka Kaukoranta —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.231.89.44 (talkcontribs) 12:01, January 12, 2006 (UTC)

Proposed merge

I have made some comments on this issue at Talk:Shawarma. Perhaps we can discuss the ins and outs of it there. Palmiro | Talk 10:06, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Döner kebab isn't the same as shawarma or gyros, so I don't see why this should be merged. Rhobite 00:52, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

The logic given by those who want to merge these articles could equally be used to split the method of meat preparation from the sandwiches. I ate döner kebap in Merzifon, Turkey (far from the usual tourist areas) as a sandwich with yogurt sauce in the late seventies. I also ate it as a part of a dinner, on a plate with rice and saled. The confusion caused by having a fourteen year old doing the translating left me with the mistaken impression that "döner" meant lamb and "şiş" meant sheep, but the taste was unmistakeable, and the reference clearly was to the meat, and used in the same way you might use "roast beef" or "grilled chicken". The sandwich variations in that instance would go into the article on sandwiches.

However, I'd rather see the articles kept separate, with links back and forth, to encourage more information about variations around the world.

(And the picture should definitely show the meat being cooked.) the preceding unsigned comment is by 129.44.174.69 (talk • contribs) 16:37, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

It would be okay having an article döner which refers to the cooking method and a separate page for the sandwiches; however, the mergist argument against separate pages is that no one of the pages could be good enough to be featured, but a single article could — quite easily, in my opinion. --Mgreenbe 15:56, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

DO NOT ADD TO GYROS

Let me explain something: while the two foods SEEM similar, as a whole they are not. Being from Chicago, where Gyros is served everywhere, i am familiar with a particular style of this food. Often traveling to Berlin, I am familiar with Doner Kebap, these two styles and tastes couldnt be more different! They ARE different foods! however there should be a link between both of them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Victorgrigas (talkcontribs) 20:22, January 19, 2006 (UTC)

Please take a look at the discussion in Talk:Shawarma. The basic argument is that not only are they all basically the same food, and of the same origin, but also that there is no systematic relationship between the names and the foods. --Macrakis 20:56, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Having the privilege (and the extra calories) of trying the food in Turkey, Germany, Belgium and Greece I have to admit:

  1. Fact: There are significant variations in taste between the dishes. Döner is different than gyros.
  2. Fact: the name döner refers to a whole genre of dishes, unlike gyros, which is more specific. I assume that the core etymological meaning of döner and gyros is derived a verb meaning to revolve. I am sure about the gyros, see gyroscope but can't prove this for döner.
  3. Fact: In every case I tried gyros, the meat was not as thinly sliced as in döner. And this is a fundamental difference.
  4. Fact: All these dishes are principally prepared around a vertical spin, but most similarities stop there. There is different meat, different sauces, different vegetables, different spices and flavours
  5. Fact: The ways of serving differ considerably, e.g. with or without pitta.
  6. Fact: As in every dish, the result in taste depends on various factors, ranging from the restaurant to the meat and the consumer's taste.

Therefore, I am against merging the terms. But the similarities and differences should be discussed. Donnerstag 00:31, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Dear Donnerstag, I certainly agree that there are different varieties of meat-roasted-on-a-vertical-spit. The problem is that, as far as I can tell, there is no systematic correspondence between the names and the varieties. When a Greek makes it, it is called "gyros", when a Turk makes it, it is called "döner", when an Arab or an Israeli makes it, it is called "shwarma". I have also had döner/gyros/shwarma in many countries (Greece, Turkey, US, UK, France, Germany) and that is my observation.

As for the names, Greek "gyros" (turning) is simply a loan-translation of Turkish "döner" (from the verb dönmek, to turn). In fact, the dish used to be called ντονέρ (doner) in Greek. Shwarma is from a different Turkish verb, çevirmek, which is also related to turning.

The thickness of slicing varies, the meat varies, the sauce varies, etc. No question about it.

See fuller discussion at Talk:Shawarma. --Macrakis 02:58, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

To explain, why merging does not make sense.. 1. the meat: gyros = pig / döner = lamb or hash of lamb+beef or chicken 2. spice: gyros = salt, pepper, garliac, oregano, thyme (+ caraway, marjoram, coriander by time) .. in original tzatziki added / döner = salt, spice, eggs, orion, oil, milk, yoghurt 3. sauces: whole different 4. gyros can be side dish .. döner is always main dish with pide or something bread like 5. whoever started the discussion about merging should start another one merging black+white —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.135.155.118 (talkcontribs) 13:06, January 30, 2006 (UTC)

I´m from a town in central Germany where all mentioned varieties are served. From my huge döner-expericence I can tell the following: Ceratinly döner, shwarma and gyros are close in concept, but nevertheless there are huge differences for the connaisseur. The meat of greek "gyros" is usually spiced, which is not true for döner and shwarma, and usually comes only with thick "tsatsiki" garilc-yoghurt-sauce. Döner and shwarma usually differ by vegetables and sauce. Döner comes with rather "domestic" vegetables as red or white cabbage, tomatoes, cucumbers, onions, sometimes carrots and typically thin garilc-yoghurt-sauce. Shwarma seems to be somewhat more oriental, containing also melon stripes and mince and being topped with spicy sesame-sauce. The "dürüm" mentioned below exchanges the pita with a wrap of tortilla-like arabic-bread. Gero 5 Feb 2006 (unsigned contribution by User:84.58.196.174)

Melon? Mince? Sesame sauce? Shawarma is nothing like that here in Israel. (Though melon does sound interesting. And some prosciutto...mmm.) It should also be noted that shawarma here is always spiced; gyros in Providence, Rhode Island is never spiced. I appreciate your connaisseurité, but I hope you understand that it is provincial; I mean this without insult — you are clearly quite experienced, and I solicit your advice on German street food. How are these foods different in a general way? --Mgreenbe 22:39, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Gero, I understand that in your town in central Germany there may be systematic differences between döner, shawarma and gyros. The problem is that those systematic differences are not the same elsewhere. For example, if I remember correctly, döner in Turkey never contains cabbage, although I understand that that is typical in Germany. Shawarma in Boston never contains melon (!!). One finds similar differences in any dish. For example, roast chicken may be made with no herbs, with rosemary, or with thyme. It may be stuffed or not. It may be basted with butter or not. It may be trussed or not. But these are all variants of roast chicken! --Macrakis 22:30, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


I don't know what gyros really is, but as a kebab enthusiast and a true professional at destroying bulk kebab meals: kebab simply means "grilled meat". Any meat. And döner, again, is a way to process the grilled meat, by rotating it and then slicing with a knife or a special cutter machine. Shawarma is basically identical to kebab. I'd insert shawarma into this article with its section which would state that it's identical, or simply ignore the similiarity and keep them linked only with a section called "Identical dishes" or "Similiar dishes". As far as I can say, kebab is exclusively referred to as the lamb/beef döners in Europe, so when someone says "I want a kebab", they mean that they want a döner kebab with salads and sauces rolled in pita. "I want gyros" would be chicken or whatever it usually is and not (usually) being rolled in pita (?). At least in Finland people mention seperately if they talk about kebab with French fries etc. (as opposed to the standard beef pita kebab), gyros, shawarma (actually, never referred to as "shawarma", but simply kanakebab (chicken kebab) etc. Still, the dishes have gone their own ways like languages, which have similiarities, but are different and should be recognized as different concepts. --84.249.252.211 19:13, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Update to the Donair Section in regards to Halifax Nova Scotia and it's History

This article was recently featured in the Chronicle Herald (one of Halifax's two daily newspapers) It discusses the history of the Donair in Halifax and it's founding father's retirement. If someone wants to read the article and add the information to the wikipedia I think that would be great. http://www.halifaxherald.com/Front/490335.html alexisatk 09:16, March 16, 2006 (AST)

Confirmation of Locality

It was mentioned above that in the maritime provinces, particularly NS, donairs are very common. Any canadian points west of this have probably never heard of a donair. Upon a description given, a western Canadian may suggest that they have a similar thing called a gyro, but it is quite different from a NS donair. [unknown user] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 142.177.78.23 (talkcontribs) 18:03, April 11, 2006 (UTC)

German section straying from the topic

An article on food is not the place to describe immigration. Joncnunn 18:04, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Unless of course the situation of the immigrants led to the popularization and development of the food, which is certainly the case with Döner. I see no problem with that section of the article as it is. --84.153.59.131 08:57, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

donair, kebab, gyro, shawarma is all the same - merge

It doesn't matter that the variations taste differently..that is to be expected with the myriad spices and sauces available around the world. They are all spiced meat grilled on a vertical spit served on bread with condiments and vegetables. An analogy is soup. There are infinite types of soup that can be served around the world that all taste and look different, but they are all just soup. People - swallow your silly national pride and accept a merger of the articles. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.81.16.207 (talkcontribs) 00:08, May 25, 2006 (UTC)

What do you propose we merge them as? Soup has a common name for all its variations. These things do not. Plus, though say, leek soup and potato soup are the same thing, do they not deserve seperate articles?BovineBeast 16:23, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
So what are the variants, and how do they differ from each other? Palmiro | Talk 23:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Rotting Meat

Can anyone actually cite this translation of Doner Kebab? According to my translation I get the following:

rotten - bozuk

rotten - kokmu?

rotten - kaba

rotten - berbat

rotten - boktan

rotten - rezil

meat - et

meat - li konu

meat - yarak

--Yyem 13:00, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

"rotten meat" in turkish is "çürümüş et"

Hey, the meat is not rotten, its rotating. Rotate in Turkish is dönmek, and in simple present tense it becomes döner. Bertilvidet 13:50, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

donair merge

These articles shouldnt have been merged, as they have nothing in common. Donairs should have their own article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 142.167.215.233 (talkcontribs) 03:30, October 27, 2006 (UTC)

I am from Halifax, Nova Scotia. a DONAIR is a LEBANESE creation, here in Halifax.A family from lebanon invented it from a similar food. It is NOT the same as a doner kebab! I for one, know that an average person not from Canada, might not know about a Donair, but if you came to Halifax, and asked for a doner kebab, you would recieve a Donair. These articles should NOT have been merged! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sololop (talkcontribs) 01:54, November 18, 2006 (UTC)