Talk:Dartford Crossing

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Clarification it is actually the A282, not the M25, in the introduction[edit]

One of the disputes Ritchie seems to be having with other users as he attempts to maintain the article in his preferred state, is something I was going to address later, so I might as well add it here as part of the dispute resolution above. The article already quite correctly details that, in simple road classification terms, the crossing and its approaches are actually the A282, not the M25, and the reason for this is to allow non-motorway traffic to use it. While not exactly common knowledge, you'd be hard pressed to claim this was not a well known fact in Britain. Not quite pub quiz trivia, but not quite road nerd trivia either.

To any reasonable person, for the purposes of an encyclopedia, which strives to be accurate of course, it follows that the crossing itself is not a motorway, and that any time someone refers to it as being "part of the M25", they are obviously not intending to convey that it is actually a section of the M25, but merely that it exists to complete the circle formed by it.

Explanations like this [1] however, and that oddly worded footnote B which he added [2] in August, give me reason to believe he doesn't accept the above as a basic fact, and is somehow trying to use the existence of phrases like "part of the M25" in sources to convey to the reader that these phrases are literally true (even though it doesn't make sense because the article makes it explicit it is an A-road in "Location" and implicit in the introduction).

As plenty of people seem to have tried, to no great success, I think it is more than appropriate to find some form of wording which briefly, very briefly, clarifies that the crossing and its approaches is not a section of motorway but an A-road in the introduction (and that it has a number, the A282). It cannot be enough to simply say in the introduction that "The crossing, despite not being under motorway restrictions, is part of the M25 motorway's route" in the introduction, not least because that immediately puts into the mind of observant readers the very obvious question - how can a road that is not under motorway restrictions, still be a motorway? Clearly, this is why people have been trying, and failing, to clarify it.

It should be noted that, in common with my above complaints, the actual clarification, as confusing as it is with that footnote beside it, is tucked away in the middle of the "Location" section, so casual readers are not likely to notice it, even if that's what they're looking for confirmation of. It's hard to believe this arrangement has been the considered conclusion of multiple reviewers, but Ritchie claims it has. Some actual proof of that might not go amiss, even if it is a link to an explicit comment in a prior review (I can't see it in the one above), instead of just shutting down the article to stop the dispute, as appears to have happened (it's certainly stopped me getting involved, even though I suspect without his explicit prior approval, Ritchie would have removed my efforts as quickly as he did before). Clarion Collar (talk) 22:14, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

You're creating vast walls of text here, the main purpose of which seem to be to attack User:Ritchie333. My guess is that you must have a massive grudge against him for some reason and that you've created a new account to grind him into the dirt. The speed with which you've posted a dispute suggests you are well-versed in the wikpedia processes. Sorry to "comment on editor and not content", but it just all seems a bit too obvious. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:57, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
Well, it's a poor guess then. I've exclusively referred to Ritchie so far because it is he who ignorantly reversed all my work, then told me to come here, only to blow me off with his nonsense views about what this article is for and a generally dismissive and arrogant attitude. If you find something suspicious in that sequence of events, or think that I progressed this dispute with the "speed" I have, or you think that out of the two of us, it is me who is doing the grinding into the dirt, well, I guess there's nothing anyone could tell you about what is and is not obvious in this world. Most people will presumably have no problem figuring out that Ritchie came into this dispute with the attitude that I am a piece of dirt on his shoe, to be wiped off on a mat. You did see the original version of his response to me? Or are you and he just friends, and this is come kind of reflexive defence of a mate of yours? Clarion Collar (talk) 18:17, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
I have a lot of respect for User:Ritchie333's general editing ability. I'm not so familiar with yours. But I have much less respect for your general approach. Your constant hyperbole is not really compatible with collaborative effort. I think you should try and concentrate calmly on content issues and put aside all of this vitriolic snark. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:31, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
You would be more familiar with my editing abilities if you bothered to review my changes and the reasons for them, which you would have done if your purpose here was to actually discuss the content issue rather to be commenting on my supposed inadequate approach. Your faith in Ritchie's ability seems to be hampering your ability to make basic assessments of his work, his claims, or indeed to appreciate his ability deliver snark of his own. Or perhaps you agree with his opening statement, that I blundered in here without thought? That I came in "off the street" to "fuck with" his article? As if I'm some kind of vagrant who has stumbled into a gentlemen's club on the Strand. You're entitled to think that if you want, only it is rather contradicted by my own explanation which accompanied my very first edit, making it clear the edit was being done with prior thought and research, an approach which is mirrored ironically by my level of detail in using this talk to address issues, which you and others seem quite happy to use against me. If you want to discuss the content issues, I'm ready and willing, just don't take me for a fool, as Ritchie seems keen to do. If you value his opinion, if you think he talks sense and knows his stuff, then kindly furnish me with some evidence that Wikipedia is in fact supposed to be a travel guide, and that articles like this on toll roads should be arranged with a tariff table, which should be presented in a section in the first part of the article, to accommodate readers who want to use Wikipedia first and foremost to find out how much it costs to use this crossing. If you can do this, and if you can treat my other objections with similar diligence, then maybe my opinion of your approach will change for the better. If not, I will assume the status quo here is that Ritchie's work is not open to question, and that if issues have not been spotted by other people they must not exist, meaning if vagrants off the street then raise them, they are to be rebuffed, with haste. Clarion Collar (talk) 20:04, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
I've looked at all your proposed changes. Once again here, you seem to be launching into a personal battle with Ritchie. That's not really helping the article. Who are these "vagrants off the street" exactly? Where did this phrase ""fuck with his article" the article come from? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:12, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
A vagrant lives on the street. Which is where Ritchie claimed I came to Wikipedia from, to fuck with his article. [3] On a "whim". Without obtaining his prior consent or consulting all the people he claims would not agree that any of these things are issues, because he has diligently worked with all of them for years, and knows their opinions intimately. People like me, the newcomers basically, are simply not entitled to change articles that have been reviewed in this manner to his evident satisfaction - we're supposed to shuffle off and work on other stuff, if we must stick around at all. You sure you've read everything here? You seem terribly ill-informed about what has gone on between us so far - I suggest you read it all, if you are in any doubt about how or why this dispute was immediately framed as a personal battle, between me, the itinerant off the street, and he, the noble guardian of this "Good Article", which has no flaws and needs no correction. Except this one [4] of course. Blink, and you might not even spot that error was identified (and already fixed) by me, not him. He nobly clarified this is what he had done elsewhere, in a page I was apparently meant to know about through clairvoyance, but as we're establishing, people don't read these "walls of text", the tedious back and forth of "dispute resolution". Not that much is getting resolved around here right now. Clarion Collar (talk) 21:03, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
Clarion Collar put yourself in Ritchie's shoes for a moment. Would you be upset if someone came out of nowhere and started tearing into an article you'd worked on for a couple years? I know I would be upset. –Fredddie 21:12, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
That's not a fair question, as he and I are quite clearly completely different people. If I cared that much, I would likely not even be writing for Wikipedia, I would seek out a platform which gave me explicit rights and control over my work. He has no such rights here, as far as I am led to believe. The whole approach seems entirely selfish to me. It's as if none of you appreciate the role of reputation and reception in an enterprise that is so heavily dependent on simply goodwill. Clarion Collar (talk) 21:52, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
You don't seem to have been exactly overflowing with "goodwill" yourself here? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:08, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
I had high hopes that my changes would be taken in the spirit they were offered, namely improvement, and that any issues with them would be thoughtfully discussed in an atmosphere of mutual respect, and that I certainly wouldn't be talked down to or otherwise dismissed simply on account of my status as a newcomer. I took care not to break anything, or indeed go against any fundamental aspect of Wikipedia as I understood it, which is namely that it is an encyclopedia not a travel guide or FAQ, and its articles should in theory have sensible and consistent structures, and be free of basic issues like duplicated or disjointed text. Then I met Ritchie. And then his official spokesperson. And you're both doing a grand job of teaching me all about the real Wikipedia, the one that's not advertised on the box, and you're doing it with so much goodwill I feel practically overwhelmed at your generosity of spirit. You do realise, in your capacity as his official defence counsel here, that he actually said to me over at that A-class page, "do not remove reliably sourced information without consensus, it can be seen as disruptive". Now, far be it from me to keep on questioning his motives, but don't you think that would have come out differently if he had been specific, and told me not to remove the tariff table that I removed with a specific statement that it was inappropriate for an encyclopedia but which he added and defends on the basis it is the most important part of the article, because that could be seen as "disruptive"? By person or persons unknown, but presumably Ritchie. Clarion Collar (talk) 22:43, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
I'm an "official spokesperson" for no-one, thanks. Your continued sarcasm does you no favours. If you find it so difficult to edit this article - by all means try another one. Best of all, it seems, try one where Ritchie or I don't appear. If you find it impossible to edit Wikipedia altogether, in the way you think you should be allowed to, you may have to just stop. But it's your tin now too, of course. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:59, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
You certainly sound like him. Your feedback at the A-class review is pretty much in total agreement with what he has said, your only departure to the party line of 'nothing to see here, move along' being to accede to putting "The crossing is the busiest in the United Kingdom" in the introduction. Due to the aforementioned protection, I can't actually edit the article for another eight days, so maybe you'd like to add that yourself as an obvious improvement which was inexplicably missed in these reviews, assuming you're not waiting for Ritchie's prior approval. No need to thank me for spotting it by the way, all the way down there in the "technical mumbo jumbo" area of the article. And you (or Ritchie, if it's him) can of course have all the credit when it's added, you've all worked so hard after all. Clarion Collar (talk) 00:47, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
Perhaps we could use that as better section heading? In over 9 years here I can't recall discussing with anyone more embittered and snarky. I'm really not sure that you will ever find Wikipedia a satisfying place. But, being optimistic, at the last count there were 5,263,172 other articles, some of which might need your diligence and attention. You wouldn't want to be seen as a WP:SPA, would you. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:20, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
Well, now I looked up what SPA means, I'd be quite surprised if they thought that label applied to me. I'm intrigued - what possible reason would this theoretical person have to think my involvement here is somehow to do with promotion or advocacy? I would have thought anyone would be able to tell that, all things considered, I clearly fall into the "well-intentioned editors with a niche interest" category of SPA, and therefore, if anyone was trying to "tag" me as an SPA, rather than that being a sign I am up to no good, it's more than likely only going to reflect badly on the tagger, because they are clearly only doing it because they are annoyed that my niche interest is hampering their ability to control an article or articles they perceive to be their (or their friends) territory or exclusive property. I would imagine the sort of person who would do that, is the same sort of person who regularly suggests to opponents that wouldn't it be better for them if they just went away and found another article to work on, and stop bothering them, because, y'know, it's clearly upsetting you. I'd suggest if you don't want people to think that's a description of you, maybe you should drop the whole idea that I am open to suggestions to tootle off somewhere else as some kind of alternative to seeing this dispute through to a conclusion, not least as you surely know by now that I have no such interest in doing that. Just to piss on your cornflakes though, I shall presently go and improve an article I noticed was rubbish a while ago but didn't have the time or inclination to do anything about it, just to show you how easy it is to do when there is no gatekeeper/keymaster combo present, as I don't believe there is over there. But even if there is, I have no doubt they will be more open and receptive to my assistance than here. Or at least I have a faint, lingering hope. P.S. I like the whole concept of "tagging" different users that you seem to use here - tell me, does that come with the yellow star included, or do users have to apply it themselves? I have MSPaint and am quite the artist, if it helps. Clarion Collar (talk) 18:01, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
Ah, what a heart-warming display of WP:AGF. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:31, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
So Ritchie decided to "tone down" his language after five minutes, and yet you insist on repeatedly using his original wording as a stick to beat him with? That doesn't seem very productive. Use of the term "vagrants" and "itinerants" seems to be you're own overly strong interpretation of "bystanders"? But let's get this straight, you're also blaming him for fixing something you wanted fixing? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:30, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
He toned down the language, but the approach was the same. But let's wait and see if it has changed, as I am obviously aware he has not been around since yesterday. My interpretation is valid, unless this is a place where you get to decide how I should be thinking? I'm not blaming him for fixing it, just pointing out the oddity of how it somehow became his fix, in the official record of who has done what to this page. The page he claims to have mostly written himself. Maybe that's true, or maybe he's just been putting his name to those changes he deems acceptable, while dumping everything else. "As you can see from this table, I have done the majority of work". Quite. Clarion Collar (talk) 21:52, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
He toned down his language without being asked to do so. I don't think you should be repeatedly reminding him of something he thought better of. I very much doubt that he'd ever claim to have written anything entirely on his own. It just doesn't ever happen at Wikipedia. But "majority of work" looks about right if you look at the history. I think you're reading too much into a simple fix with edit summary. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:08, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Clarion Collar won't be contributing to this conversation further as he has been indefinitely blocked as a sockpuppet. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 15:33, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

Not to mention a liar. Quelle surprise. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:07, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

Resolving the dispute[edit]

Anyway, let's see if I can extract the actual remarks on content and do something with them, which are:

  • History section should come first - I think everyone has put forth their views on this, and seems to be six-of-one, half a dozen of the other.
  • Inclusion of a tariff table is completely inappropriate - I think I, Martin and Fredddie all thought this was okay to leave
  • Simplify "The crossing the easternmost road crossing of the River Thames" to "The crossing spans the River Thames" .... in my view, being the easternmost crossing is incredibly significant and explains why so many people utterly hate it, I would like to not have to go all the way to Dartford to drive from Folkestone to Mersea Island (compare with how much the crow flies) but that's pretty much my only sane choice.
  • Alternative routes - I actually like the trim CC did here, but I've gone even further, because "With none to the east, the next nearest vehicle crossings" leads me to think "With none of what"?
  • General arrangement - the problem with the reorganisation is then the sections are small. Again, all I can say is that I hallway usability test articles by getting some non-editors to quickly read them. We spend a lot of time talking about uninvolved admins, maybe we should get our articles to be proof read by uninvolved editors? ;-)
  • "this appears to be a side effect of Ritchie333 being determined to make this article be primarily of use to people wanting to use the crossing, rather than it being an encylopedia article" - this comes back to a long-held belief of mine that this page should be for a general-purpose reader; and of the cross-section of people I interact with regularly (many of which are well outside the typical Wikipedia editor demographic), the general view of Dartford is "I hate it with a passion". The hardcore road enthusiast has got and (note the latter says "Please direct all enquiries about the tolls to This is NOT the Dartford Crossing official website." which shows people do look all over the internet for information), the seriously hardcore geek has got the London Ringways and South Orbital Road papers held in the National Archives, which has more facts and figures than you can shake a stick at.
  • A282 - the current version of the article as I read it says "a major road crossing of the River Thames in England, carrying the A282 road between Dartford in Kent to the south with Thurrock in Essex to the north" - I assume this is resolved?

I think that's about all I can extract from above, any other thoughts? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:27, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

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References to Lower Thames Crossing[edit]

Hello folks,

I've just been reading this article and I note that it makes reference to the proposed Lower Thames Crossing - however it does so in a way that needs to be updated (it refers to future route decisions, whereas the route has now been chosen).

I have not got the Wikipedia-page-editing skills to be able to re-write the page, can I just flag this up for an expert to take a look at?

Cheers, Phil (sometime user of the Dartford Crossing) (talk) 10:32, 26 April 2017 (UTC) 26 April 2017

I've updated this via the latest BBC News source - can you just check it and confirm this is correct? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:07, 26 April 2017 (UTC)