Talk:Datura stramonium

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Botticelli's Venus and Mars[edit]

Thank you Tsinfandel for the interesting info & article link on Boticelli's painting. I do have to revert the edit though because it was a gross misidentification of the plant in the painting. Datura (and especially D. stramonium) are known as the thorn apples because of their very deeply thorny seed pods, as can be seen in Brugmansia & Datura by Ulrike & Hans George Preissel, pg 124; and also here is a link to many Google images of these seed pods: Datura stramonium. The leaves, too, are really nothing even similar to Datura or Brugmansia. Also, Datura stramonium are endemic to the southeast of North America, and would not have been spread to Europe until well after Christopher Columbus' voyage in 1492 (same reference), however Botticelli's Venus & Mars was painted c. 1483. Tom Hulse (talk) 18:29, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

So how was "it was mentioned earlier by the Persian physician Avicenna in 11th century Persia"? It must be frustrating but your contribution violates NOR. And it is you against Kew. First publish then return. Perhaps you could find a reliable source that enriches the interesting discussion rather than squashes it. Tsinfandel (talk) 19:43, 27 May 2010 (UTC)


Hello Tsinfandel. :) Per your cited article, this plant was specifically identified by an unknown source at Kew as Datura stramonium. However, Avicenna mentioned D. metel ("Jouzmathal", which means "metel nut" actually), and there is no evidence he had ever known of the plant we call Datura stramonium.

If you wish to get ultra-technical about NOR, and view my cited sources as a "synthesis" of sources, then we must also look closer at reliable sources for your post. Since the article is brand-new and postulates a theory that is new and contrary to long established understanding in the art world (by it's own admission), and is contested here & on it's own web site, it is subject to peer review/consensus before it can be considered a reliable source, and it may not be used yet. I will of course wait for your comments before re-deleting the posts, but really they must come down. The reliable sources requirement was created for just such a situation as this.

On the separate issue of 'me vs. Kew', it is not relevant specifically because I am not a source, but it is relevant to help show you why it is important that we follow reliable sources on this one, because this article will certainly be discredited (already started). It doesn't sound like you are aware of what the ISHS is. I am certain there is no one at Kew who would feel qualified to override the ISHS Registrar for the genus Datura on a question like this. It just doesn't work like that. If you review that link I posted above to the Google pics of Datura Stramonium (and compare them to Boticelli's painting, you can see for yourself that this article will in fact be surely discredited, and therefore why it is important we follow reliable sources. Tom Hulse (talk) 21:22, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Avicenna[edit]

Removing sentence mentioning Avicenna, since he wrote of metel nut (Datura metel), and not Datura stramonium, which also would not have escaped outside the SE US until sometime after the 1400's. Tom Hulse (talk) 18:38, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Historical medical use[edit]

A recent historical note in the NEJM noted that inhaling Datura stramonium smoke "was probably the best" of the limited treatment options for asthma available in the early 19th century, and was a forerunner of modern antimuscarinics used for that purpose. Apparently "asthma cigarettes" made out of the plant were even sold commercially for a time. Perhaps someone who knows more about this can add something? --Delirium (talk) 19:11, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Adding a belated note here, for the benefit of talk-page readers, that Jrtayloriv has since added a nicely referenced section on this topic. --Delirium (talk) 20:17, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was not moved. --BDD (talk) 19:11, 22 October 2012 (UTC) (non-admin closure)

Datura stramoniumJimsonweed – Per WP:COMMONNAME. Jimsonweed is by far the most commonly used name for this plant. ANDROS1337TALK 05:09, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

  • Oppose Please continue to read farther down that page you referenced, at WP:COMMONNAME, under the subheading Explicit conventions. Common names are not used for all Wikipedia articles where specific conventions prevail, such as the one it mentions for WP:FLORA, where it says that for most plant articles "scientific names are to be used...". This is an established Wikipedia guideline. --Tom Hulse (talk) 05:56, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
Indeed, except for the detail that it also says that exceptions can be determined by consensus on a case-by-case basis. Considering that is exactly what ANDROS is trying to do here, why try to stop it? Powers T 01:11, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
That's not really what it says. Exceptions are not allowed by consensus on a case-by-case basis for all articles; only those like rose, apple, & watermelon who have "an agricultural, horticultural, economic or cultural use that makes them more prominent in some other field than in botany". He is not at all making the case that Jimsonweed rises to that level of prominence, and it would be silly to do so. Instead his case is that Jimsonweed is a more common name, which is completely irrelevant according to WP:FLORA (even this irrelvant argument is not correct as Rkitko points out below). If you hang out at WP:PLANTS where these frequently come up, you would see that this is exactly what the guideline was developed for, and that this RM is eligble for summary dismissal by an administrator. --Tom Hulse (talk) 02:07, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:FLORA. By far more Google Scholar and Books hits for "Datura stramonium" than "Jimsonweed", suggesting that the scientific name is, in fact, the most commonly used name in reliable sources when discussing this species. That makes the current title perfectly in line with WP:COMMONNAME. Rkitko (talk) 19:54, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:FLORA. While jimsonweed most often refers to D. stramonium, D. wrightii and D. inoxia/meteloides are also referred to as jimsonweed in both lay and scholarly sources. The common name doesn't map precisely to a scientific name. Redirecting Jimsonweed and Jimson weed to Datura may be appropriate.Plantdrew (talk) 05:42, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose per above. In passing, in my neck-of-the-woods the common name is "datura" or sometimes "night-blooming datura". --Bejnar (talk) 21:05, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Inaccuracy.[edit]

"delirium (as contrasted with hallucinations)". This is false. It is known to cause vivid hallucinations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77Mike77 (talkcontribs) 19:36, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Confirmed: Plant is eaten by South Amaerican Indians specifically as a hallucinogen. It also hampers motor coordination.

Also: This statement: " freely branching herb that forms a bush up to 2 to 5 ft (60 to 150 cm) tall." If I post 5 pictures of 5 plants ALL more than 5 feet high, will you change it? well, guess the truth remains a distant dream.

I found the source: "The latter name refers to the spiny seed-bearing capsules. Most of the species are low, shrubby or sprawling annuals or perennials, but some tree-like forms may reach 11 meters (36 feet) in height." http://waynesword.palomar.edu/ww0703.htm

"Toloache" is not a spanish word.[edit]

You can find a list of spanish names for this plant at http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datura_stramonium under the "Nombres vernáculos" section.

The word Toloache is of american origin. I have found at http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datura_ferox that this word is Náhuatl ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahuatl ). The name "Toloache" is used probably only in Mexico. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.76.246.92 (talk) 17:12, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

loco weed v locoweed[edit]

is this not the plant also called loco weed cattle that ate it behaved crazy maybe only in sw us .......ck — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.170.54 (talk) 06:34, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Jimsonweed or "loco weed" (two words) is different from the "locoweed" that has a toxic effect on cattle. --Naaman Brown (talk) 01:51, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

What does "coolers" mean?[edit]

We tried to translate the article into Japanese, but none of us know what "coolers" means which is written in its quotation part. It says "one of the greatest coolers in the world." Would any of you tell us what it means?--Akiyama(tentative) (talk) 18:12, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Well 1705 is quite along time ago, but I'd guess it's meant to mean anything that reduces or "cools" passions, excitement, aggression, etc. As in the phrase "to cool their ardour." Martinevans123 (talk) 18:31, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
Martinevans123 is correct. More specifically, it goes back to Humorism, an outdated medicinal belief that one's personality is determined high high or low different bodily fluids are. By "coolers," Robert Beverley meant that the plant would either reduce their blood and yellow bile levels, or else increase their phlegm and black bile levels. If the Japanese Wikipedia has a relevant article, you might want to link to it. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:45, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
Humorism, It makes sense to me! Thanks you two, your answers will be a great help to us.--Akiyama(tentative) (talk) 11:46, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

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