Talk:Dayalbagh

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Neha Sharma Murder Case[edit]

I have moved the location of the Neha Sharma Murder Case to the bottom of the Dayalbagh wikipedia article. I don't understand the need to put an isolated incident to the top of a page that should primarily about the locality. If your defense is to say that this is an important event, I will not disagree with you there, but it is an ongoing event, which can be better served at wikinews or searched at the news portals and should not be the primary subgroup in the article. Whether it should be there or not (I disagree that it should have a really long entry as there is no charge for the accused - they've only been arrested) I leave that to the other editors.

Duniyadnd 08:56 June 22 2013 (EST)

Neha Sharma Murder Case[edit]

I am deleting the Neha Sharma murder case section for the following reasons:

  1. It is news-worthy for the people in Agra (for sometime), but not a major section in the article
  2. It occurred in the DEI campus and not Dayalbagh (the ashram) per se

Detrainman (talk) 03:28, 17 June 2013 (UTC)


I am re-adding the Neha Sharma murder case section for the following reasons:

  1. Detrainman adding "for sometime" in his reason clearly shows that he has vested interest in hiding this matter.
  2. DEI campus is located in Dayalbagh, the suburb this article is about. This page is not about Dayalbagh (ashram).
  3. It is verifiable by media citations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AgraNewsObserver (talkcontribs) 09:28, 19 June 2013 (UTC)


AgraNewsObserver,

  1. You clearly are re-adding the section, which means you have a vested interest in the matter
  2. If every Wiki article had every murder that took place, then the pages of Delhi and Agra would be a daily murder report
  3. You clearly do not understand the difference between a wiki and a newspaper.
  4. Please visit WikiNews (en.wikinews.org) to update your news

Detrainman (talk) 12:54, 19 June 2013 (UTC)


Detrainman,

  1. Yes, I have a vested interest in the matter. I want the truth to come out. Everything in the section is verifiable through media reports.
  2. This is not an ordinary murder.
  3. Regarding your understanding of "wiki and and a newspaper", I would not like to point out your ignorance.

AgraNewsObserver (talk) 18:30, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Neha Sharma Edit War[edit]

AgraNewsObserver: I am not going to edit the page right now, because we are in disagreement.

To clarify:

  1. I fully support transparency and justice in Neha Sharma's trial
  2. I wish that maximum penalty is given to the culprit(s)
  3. Some of your claims are allegations, and not facts till proven in court
  4. It appears that you do not like the Dayalbagh and Dayalbagh Educational Institute, and you are influenced by your feelings


Please read this:

  1. Go on other institute wiki pages and check if they have murders listed on their page.
  2. Go on any page about a suburb, and check if they have individual murders listed
  3. You will find that they don't have murders/crimes listed. This is not because the editors are insensitive, but because Wikipedia entry about Dayalbagh is intended be an encyclopedia, not a murder list


Finally:

  1. Create a separate Wiki page called "Neha Sharma Murder Case" and update it regularly
  2. If required, I will keep reverting your edits, till the end of the world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Detrainman (talkcontribs) 19:12, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Detrainman,

Regarding your clarifications:

  1. I highly doubt that.
  2. Given how you feel that this matter is "newsworthy (for sometime)" and "does not deserve being mentioned", your attitude is highlighted and it appears to me that either you don't respect women or are familiar with them being (raped and) murdered.
  3. First of all, these are not my allegations. These are reports published in print media. If you want, I can send some of them to you.
  4. You feel that I am doing this because I don't like Dayalbagh.

Please read this:

  1. Why are you trying to downplay this murder? It is serious and I doubt if a crime as serious as this has been committed in a suburb let alone an institute.
  2. I have never said that the editors are insensitive. I feel that you are because of your earlier remarks.

Finally:

  1. I strongly feel that this incident is something that should be mentioned on these pages as well.

AgraNewsObserver (talk) 05:31, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Content dispute[edit]

If you are unable to achieve consensus, can I suggest you seek an experienced editor to review the discussion and who might come up with their thoughts on how to proceed? I have used this approach previously to good effect. Flat Out let's discuss it 04:57, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I have deleted the 'murder case' section for gross violations of WP:BLP policy[edit]

I suggest that contributors familiarise themselves with WP:BLP policy before adding such material. Much of it seems to be sourced to scanned sources uploaded by unknown persons - this is never acceptable as (a) it braches copyright, and (b) it is impossible to verify the authenticity of the content. I suggest that anyone wishing to include material related to the murder in this article starts by linking here the necessary sources to establish that the murder case is of direct relevence to the subject of the article - and note that translation may be required for anything not in English. If it can be estanblished that this murder is relevent to the article topic at all, it will of course be necessary to discuss it only to the extent that due weight requires. This article must not be used as a coatrack for off-topic material, or as a means to disparage the subject of the article by implication. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:20, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Further to this, I would remind contributors that WP:BLP policy applies everywhere on Wikipedia - including talk pages. Describing an unconvicted person as a 'murderer' is a gross breach of policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:25, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Note: I have raised this matter at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Articles on Dayalbagh and the Dayalbagh Educational Institute, and asked for outside assistance. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:12, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Readding Neha Sharma murder case.[edit]

The section does not say that the accused is the murderer and is in line with NPOV. A lot of what is in the section can be verified at http://www.indianexpress.com/news/laboratory-of-murder-clues/1107266/0 . To verify the rest of the content, I request users having knowledge of Hindi to read the eArchives of Amar Ujala Agra edition dated 16th March to 30th April at http://earchive.amarujala.com.

I also request Andy to suggest better ways to source content published in print newsp apers.

AgraNewsObserver (talk) 15:39, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Readding Neha Sharma murder case.[edit]

People are getting quite excited about not getting this case added to wikipedia. Steven Colbert said that "Reality has become a commodity" for a reason. Out of curiosity ... did Andy ever get back to you about a better way to source content? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.125.121.9 (talkcontribs) 02:26, 30 August 2014‎

Given the complete lack of evidence from published reliable sources so far provided that this murder is actually of direct relevance to the subject matter of the article, there appears to be nothing to add. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:31, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump ... Actually the news sources referred to are quite respectable and reliable. On what basis are you basing your opinion that Times of India, Zee News, NewsXpress and Indian Express are not reliable? 24.125.121.9 (talk) 02:55, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

The sources you name may well be reliable for some things - they can however only ever be reliable for things they actually say. What specific content from which of the sources you name establishes that this murder is of significance to a general article on the Dayalbagh colony? AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:01, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Good that no one is citing "lack of evidence from published reliable sources" anymore and have agreed that these sources are reliable. One of these reliable sources say that "Agra police has arrested grandson of DayalBagh Santsangh Sabha president and former Director of the University and a laboratory technician at DayalBagh for the murder of 25-year-old Jammu research scholar Neha Sharma"[1]. Now is it relevant? ;-)24.125.121.9 (talk) 03:24, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

And how exactly does that establish that a general article on Dayalbagh should include this murder case? It doesn't, as far as I can see. It is an article about a murder. Which accordingly says where the murder took place (though it actually names the University rather than the colony, and the headline reads 'Jammu Research Scholar’s murder in Agra'). Which is normal for articles on murders. Our article on Delhi doesn't include every murder that took place there, does it? To establish that this murder is significant to this article, you need to show that sources providing a general discussion of DayalBagh discuss the murder, rather than showing that sources discussing the murder name the place it occurred. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:43, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

I am a bit confused, by use of term Dayalbagh colony. As per wikipedia Colony is "in politics and history, a territory under the immediate political control of a state, distinct from the home territory of the sovereign." This aside, one will have to read all of the the admitted reliable source to get a holistic picture of how this section is sourced. One of reliable sources does say that the murder took place in lab of Dayalbagh educational institute[2]. Now can this can be added to either this article or perhaps to the Dayalbagh Educational Institute?24.125.121.9 (talk) 04:50, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

I used the term colony because the article does - it obviously doesn't mean 'colony' in the usual sense of the term. As for adding content to the article on the institute, the same point applies - you need to provide evidence that the murder is considered significant in general discussions of the subject. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:02, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

First and foremost, I am glad that this is a civil discussion. The initial emotional and questionable reaction creates an incorrect negative impression about the direction in which discussion may proceed. I agree that the article in its current form is misleading ... one example of this, as you have pointed out term 'colony' in not its usual sense is misleading. Further now, that you are no longer questioning location of the murder, perhaps you would also agree on "well cited" news that murder for which grandson of Dayalbagh Santsangh Sabha president and former Director of the University along with a laboratory technician at DayalBagh Educational institute, does adds enough element of controversy to warrant an addition in wikipedia. If not, please explain24.125.121.9 (talk) 05:37, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

My reaction to you reposting a gross violation of multiple Wikipedia policies, which had already been discussed in depth on this very page a year ago (see above - though I have every reason to suspect you have already read it) was entirely appropriate. And stop trying to put words into my mouth. I have said nothing whatsoever about the article being 'misleading'. And no, I agree to nothing - you have yet to provide the slightest evidence that any sources discussing either Dayalbagh or the Institute consider this murder (or rather alleged murder) relevant to a general discussion of the respective subjects. Wikipedia does not routinely cover murders (they are sadly far too common to be notable by default), and when we do, we do so based on evidence that the murder itself meets our notability guidelines, in an article on the subject of the murder. We do not use other articles as a coatrack for coverage of non-notable murders, and neither do we use such unfortunate events as a means to manufacture an imaginary 'controversy' about the actual subject of an article. If you believe the murder meets Wikipedia notability guidelines (which I would have to suggest is debatable) you should create an article on it - one compliant with policies, rather than the half-baked concoction of innuendo you have been attempting to foist on this article. If the murder merits and mention in either this article or the one on the institute at all, it will merit nothing more than a senrtence at most - and only that if proper sourcing can be provided to indicate its direct relevance. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:11, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump ... this is talk page about Dayalbagh and I am glad we are having a civil discussion. The initial emotional reaction was anything but polite/professional and the fact on getting a polite but firm response, you closed/abandoned the "talk" created an incorrect impression.

The point about the article being incorrect at places ... term [colony]] was used in the article, you also had stated "it obviously doesn't mean 'colony' in the usual sense of the term". Doesn't this implies this term is incorrectly used? I am sorry to say this ... right from beginning you are firm in conclusion "the responses, that <- WP:BLP violation redacted -> should not be added to wikipedia", but reasoning is changing all the time!

First you questioned "reliability of the sources", once it was established that the sources are reliable; your reasoning changed to establishing a connection, once this was answered; then you questioned 'where the murder took place', when this was established that the murder took place in Dayalbagh Educational institute's lab; you started talking about colony and are now have a new reason. Also note that all the facts that were pointed out to you were present in citations and yet you were questioning them. May I ask reason for this 'changing reasoning' with firm 'conclusion'? <-gross violation of WP:BLP policy redacted AndyTheGrump (talk) 08:41, 30 August 2014 (UTC) -> 24.125.121.9 (talk) 07:06, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Since you have yet again grossly violated Wikipedia policy, I have nothing further to say to you. You seem utterly incapable of complying with a simple requirement that you do not make unsourced assertions of guilt, have gone out of your way to misrepresent what I have said, and have completely refused to even attempt to provide the evidence that this alleged murder merits inclusion in the article. Your violation of WP:BLP policy will be reported, together with a request that you be blocked from editing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 08:41, 30 August 2014 (UTC)


Is Dayalbagh a territory under the immediate political control of a state, distinct from the home territory of the India? Or not?63.88.70.247 (talk) 13:24, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

  1. ^ http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/ex-directors-grandson-aide-arrested/
  2. ^ http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/lucknow/Agra-research-scholars-killer-nabbed/articleshow/19704204.cms