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|Consensus per this RfC closure and this RfM closure is to use "the Beatles" mid-sentence.|
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Shouldn't there be a musical analysis of this song? Like the dynamics and how the instrumentation builds with each verse?
- 1 Ringo
- 2 dear prudence
- 3 Fair use rationale for Image:The White Album.jpg
- 4 Nice article
- 5 Credits
- 6 Remove unsourced content that could violate WP:BLP
- 7 The ridiculous hijacking of this page by "Souxshee and the Banshees"
- 8 "Composition" section and what it's for.
- 9 John McCartney?
- 10 External links modified
An anonymous editor keeps adding Ringo to the credits.
- The non-Ringo version of the credits has a source citation, which means it is supported by verifiable evidence. That source does not include Ringo's name, so any attempt to add him should clearly indicate that the citation does not refer to that assertion.
- MacDonald's Revolution in the Head and Lewisohn's Recording Sessions cast exteme doubt on Ringo's particpation. MacDonald does not include Ringo in the credits. Lewisohn describes day-by-day activities, and clearly shows that "Dear Prudence" was recorded when Ringo had left the band. Both authors are viewed as experts. Any addition of Ringo to the credits must be cited to a similarly verifiable source. John Cardinal 13:58, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
- Although without a verifiable source you're correct WRT the article as it stands; but I would not simply conclude flatly that the existing, released recording has Paul on drums, rather than a later Ringo overdub. Unless Paul suddenly for one day only became a vastly more flexible and imaginative drummer who sounded exactly like Ringo, and then reverted to being a just a competent timekeeper, that drum track isn't Paul's work. Solicitr (talk) 16:45, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
- Based on other work, I'd conclude that Paul was quite capable of the "Dear Prudence" drum part. He was certainly capable of inventing creative drum parts, and the sloppy hi-hat work doesn't sound like Ringo at all. None of that matters, of course, as it's just my opinion, and like your opinion, it's WP:OR. The article presents verifiable evidence from two experts that Ringo didn't play the part and Paul did. — John Cardinal (talk) 22:37, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
- Of course John is correct based on the sources, but I think Solicitr is on to something with: "I would not simply conclude flatly that the existing, released recording has Paul on drums, rather than a later Ringo overdub. Unless Paul suddenly for one day only became a vastly more flexible and imaginative drummer who sounded exactly like Ringo, and then reverted to being a just a competent timekeeper, that drum track isn't Paul's work." I say that is an undocumented overdubb by Ringo. GabeMc (talk) 21:09, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
- I retract my comments completely, User:John Cardinal is not only correct about the sources but upon further review of the track, I also agree with his assessment that the drumming on "Dear Prudence" is well within the scope of Paul's abilities, there is little to no variation at all, except near the end of the song, where the drums rock, but are maybe not as tight as Ringo would be. GabeMc (talk) 01:43, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- Wow, what you just said was inappropriate and counter-productive. Nobody wants to see Wikipedia's Talk pages turn into a fan chat site, but there is vastly more freedom to refer to opinion, or speculate. The point is to create great articles. If editors, who want nothing but the best in our articles, feel restrained from expressing themselves on Talk pages, the eventual effect could be disastrous. More specifically, if GabeMc had felt he wasn't free to retract his previous comments (rather noble of him, I thought), this would lead to a colder, more hostile, and less productive environment. Kind of like, "I just bumped into someone, and I'd apologize, but this isn't a nightclub, it's an office, so I'll just be on my way." Nobody wants to work with that guy!
- Last I read, original research was NOT expressly prohibited from Talk pages. If anything, it should be encouraged: "I believe _____. Does anyone know of a source for this?"
- --09:36, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
In my limewire files I used to have a live beatles cover of dear prudences. It started off "we're gonna finish with a song by the beatles, its a happy song...called dear prudence" the artist was mislabled and i haven't been able to find since then.
Does anyone know what band this was or how I could obtain it?
Fair use rationale for Image:The White Album.jpg
Image:The White Album.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 03:52, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- If you are going to make changes, cite the source and note how it differs from MacDonald. MacDonald is cited now, and he is a reliable source. Today, someone changed the credits wiothout removing MacDonald and without citing Lewisohn and that leaves the article in a sorry state, so I reverted it. John Cardinal (talk) 02:52, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
The crediting of song authorship and musician lineup in Beatleland is in need of a new framework. Certain claims and practices have taken on a rather canonical mantel over the years, without sufficient vetting. First and foremost, for a credit published by the artists themselves to be categorically overturned, i.e. that a Lennon-McCartney song be post-facto annotated as written 100% by one or the other, should require the most stringent authority and citation. The Beatles themselves are not completely reliable here either, in the academic sense. Any interview that may be cited on song authorship has to be considered on the context of informality and shorthand-- "that was Paul's song, this other was mine," a context that leaves out the nuance that John and Paul were each others' primary collaborator-editor, and that all four (typically, frequently) contributed creatively to the final work. Certainly many songs are the effort of a single author; Yesterday a prime example. But even Hey Jude, widely acknowledged as McCartney's creation, was in creative flux, with changes being considered to the line "the movement you need is on your shoulder" until Lennon advised him to leave it alone. That is creative input, and authorship. I have no argument with promoting the correct, factually supported revisionism that Lennon-McCartney songs were usually not 50/50, nor even close to it. But in my mind it underserves the truth to say (again, unless on the strongest authority) this song or that was "written by Paul McCartney" or "written by John Lennon." If they had credited their songs that way to begin with, it would be a different story; but for us to say we know the absolute creative provenance of this body of work is simply not supportable.
As to who played what, Lewisohn and (a few) others are strong. However, mixing and editing can remove or minimize the performance of a player who was witnessed as present at a session, and it seems to me that (in the absence of full recording and mixing notes) the ear is the best evaluator of what a final performance is comprised. At least the ear should be strongly used in evaluating who played what, and let the citations jibe with what we hear. If a citation seems completely at odds with what we're hearing on record, let's leave it out until we can firm it up with more evidence.--Seeker56 (talk) 10:25, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
- I disagree that we need a new framework. In any case, that topic should be discussed somewhere other than the talk page for a song article (too few editors watch specific article pages), and you should not edit war in that article about it. Discuss the topic on the talk page of The Beatles wikiproject, or possibly the Lennon/McCartney page.
- WP articles do not "categorically overturn" the official credits; the infobox, in particular, but also tracklists and "credited to ..." comments in the prose, reflect the official, legal credits. Depending on the song and the circumstances, the prose describes who actually wrote the song supported by reliable sources and often include specific comments by L and M.
- Your assertion that "At least the ear should be strongly used in evaluating who played what, and let the citations jibe with what we hear" is an endorsement of original research and that is specifically prohibited on WP, and for good reason. MacDonald and Lewisohn are reliable sources and they used their ears, their judgement, and the EMI documentation to describe who played what. — John Cardinal (talk) 17:17, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
I think the point here is that although "Yellow Submarine" was a McCartney song, he got lines for it from others, such as Donovan, as in "sky of blue, sea of green.". Ringo supplied the "darning his socks" line in "Eleanor Rigby", etc...etc...etc...So while Paul's songs are mostly his, it is well known that he accepted lines from others to complete them, as did John and George at times. GabeMc (talk) 21:15, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
- So? How does your comment bear on the discussion? — John Cardinal (talk) 21:56, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
Remove unsourced content that could violate WP:BLP
Farrow explained years later that she was just trying to take Transcendental Meditation seriously. She said in Mojo magazine: "They were trying to be cheerful, but I wished they'd go away. I don't think they realized what the training was all about." In an early acoustic demo of the song, Lennon makes a direct reference to this story, when he said..... "Transcendental Meditation course in Rishikesh, India. Who was to know that sooner or later she was to go completely berserk over the care of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. All the people around her were very worried about her because she was going insane". -- — Kbob • Talk • 12:54, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
- The first part is found in Mia Farrow's memoir. The second is on the Beatles Anthology. I'll dig up the citations for them. Will Beback talk 09:17, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- I've added something that's cited and covers all the bases. I think adding further details gives undue weight to Farrow rather than the article subject. Perhaps these other details about Farrow could go in her bio once sources are found.-- — Kbob • Talk • 15:31, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
The ridiculous hijacking of this page by "Souxshee and the Banshees"
"Composition" section and what it's for.
I'm always a bit disappointed to see a section titled "Composition" and find it has nothing to do with the actual, y'know, composition. I suppose a fair amount of people see it as a section I would title "Lyrics", or "Inspiration", or "Background". But I came to this article expecting someone would have already written something about the influential chord progression, D to D/C to G/B to Gm/B♭, not to mention the bridge (F to A♭ to G to D).
I was working on the article for "I'm Not the One", creating a "Composition" section and talking about its chord progressions. If you know the Cars song, it's kinda impossible not to compare it to "Dear Prudence". One transcriptionist has it as the exact same thing, another has it as merely similar. But I was hoping somebody with actual Beatles sheet music to cite had already written about the music to this song. I could tell you exactly how to play "Dear Prudence", but I haven't a book of sheet music to cite.
I think other songs have used the main chord sequence as well, though off the top of my head I can't tell you which ones.
Don't misunderstand, the info on Prudence Farrow is interesting and I wouldn't cut a word of it. I would just categorize it as something other than "Composition".
- Thanks for your comments. I think you've made a legitimate point and I've changed the section name to: Background. As for the chord progression and its influence on other music, we'd need some reliable sources for that and if you have some let me know and you/I/we can add content that summarizes those sources. Best, -- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:52, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
Say, who is this John McCartney credited with background vocals? (It's unlinked so there's no explanation). A distant relative of Paul's? More to the point, Paul has a brother Michael and a father Jim, but no brother named John. I Googled "John McCartney" and nothing came up related to Paul...so very curious as to who this is referring to. Do the sources explain? Is he a relation to Paul?184.108.40.206 (talk) 16:47, 18 March 2016 (UTC)Tim
- It was possibly a joke or a hoax. I've removed it for now. The personnel section is sourced and I don't recall any of the sources I've seen mention a John McCartney, and that name would have stood out. freshacconci talk to me 19:11, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
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