Talk:Death of Jean Charles de Menezes

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Former good article Death of Jean Charles de Menezes was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
Date Process Result
September 7, 2005 Peer review Reviewed
July 21, 2006 Peer review Reviewed
September 3, 2006 Good article nominee Listed
August 9, 2009 Good article reassessment Delisted
Current status: Delisted good article

Archive discussion[edit]

July 2005 - December 2005 - Created 27 February 2006

February 2006 - December 2008 19:32, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Systemic analysis[edit]

A systemic analysis of the incident has recently been presented by Dr. Dan Jenkins, Director of Sociotechnic Solutions Ltd. See: Jenkins, D., (2009), "A Systemic look at the Stockwell shooting", "The Ergonomist" (Newsletter of the Ergonomics Society), No. 470, August 2009, pp 12 - 13 (ISSN 0268-5639).

now also: Jenkins, D.P., Salmon, P.M., Stanton, N.A. and Walker, G.H., 2010, A systemic approach to accident analysis: A case study of the Stockwell shooting, Ergonomics, Vol 53, No. 1, January 2010, pp 1 - 17 (ISSN 0014-0139 print, 1366-5947 online). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.148.110.141 (talk) 19:09, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Common Travel Area[edit]

"While the Common Travel Area has, for most of its history, involved an open or relatively open border, this has never meant that someone who had legally entered one part of the area would be automatically entitled legally to enter another part."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area#Other_nationalities

This is how I always thought it was, yet I cannot find any quotes/info. The link in this article just refers to the news article, but there is no other source to verify... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.6.244.121 (talk) 14:44, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

In addition the item is misleading because it gives the impression his presence was legal whereas he was working at the time. He had no valid work permit even if he was allowed to be in the country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.97.38.12 (talk) 21:00, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Brazilians are not Visa free nationals in either Ireland or the UK, therefore the 3 month period does not apply. There is an attempt to 'whitewash' the legality of his immigration status. "According to the Home Office, he arrived in Britain on 13 March 2002, on a six-month visitor's visa. After its expiry, he applied to stay on as a student, and was granted permission to remain until 30 June 2003. The Home Office said it had no record of any further correspondence, but added: "We have seen a copy of Mr Menezes' passport, containing a stamp apparently giving him indefinite leave to remain in the UK. On investigation, this stamp was not one that was in use by the Immigration and Nationality Directorate on the date given." This pretty much says he was using a forged or counterfeit ILR stamp in his passport.--Nozzer71 (talk) 12:31, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Why is this relevant? Being an undocumented immigrant is not a capital crime, nor is it why the police pursued him. LadyLeitMotif (talk) 14:32, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

There is no such thing as a "capital crime" in UK law so that statement is meaningless. The fact is that he had no work visa or ILR so he was working illegally in the UK. This was relevant to the investigation because they needed to consider if his immigration status may have influenced the way he reacted when confronted. The outcome of the investigation is well known and it's clear that his immigration status didn't have a bearing on the tragic events of that day. It doesn't change the fact that he was working illegally though and we must maintain NPOV. 101.98.183.94 (talk) 09:53, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move per request (as altered to "death of"). His death and surrounding matters, rather than his biography, dominates the subject matter.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 14:43, 21 August 2010 (UTC)


Jean Charles de MenezesShooting of Jean Charles de Menezes — Let's make no pretence about the subject of this article, which is the controversial death at Menezes at the hands of British police, and the aftermath; it's not so much about the unspectacular life of Menezes - note that there is a little less than two paragraphs about this individual - so it is by no stretch a meaningful biography despite the huge amount of international press coverage. It ought to be moved per WP:ONEEVENT. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 02:12, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

  • I'm guessing Mr de Menezes led about as 'unspectacular' a life as many Wikipedia editors do. I don't particularly object to the suggested move, though I would say that some people coming to this page might be wanting to find out details - for instance, the issue of his legal right to be in Britain at the time (which played a role in some of the false suggestions about him having run from police), or the false rape allegations - which are part of his 'biography' rather than a specific article about the shooting. So those elements of the article should stay.--Lopakhin (talk) 10:33, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

He was working in the UK and he did not have a working visa - irrespective of how he arrived in the country or when. This is relevant as it may explain why he ran from the police. Please lets stick to the facts on Wikipedia and not start rewriting history..... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.253.4.7 (talk) 15:06, 6 October 2012 (UTC)


  • Support move to "Death of..." Main topic of this article is clearly the incident and its aftermath not the person. What little biographical information is included seems to be there to be the incident and its aftermath in context rather than an attempt at a biography. Nothing about this persons previous life is notable except in the context of the incident. Dpmuk (talk) 14:09, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Eyewitnesses[edit]

I made [1] as saying the error were fabrications is misleading. In fact the source doesn't use the word 'fabrications' or anything like it at all and reading, as I expect it highlights the problems with eyewitness in a resonable fashion. Many eyewitness may genuinely believe something which is incorrect for a variety of reasons it isn't just a simple matter of makings things up as 'fabrications' seems to imply. Feel free to reword it as appropriate. I do consider this is important, I was once in a discussion with someone on an unrelated matter who was convinced that punishing eyewitnesses who's testimony was later demonstrated to be unlikely to be true would somehow make the problem go away and wasn't apparently able to understand the problem with eyewitnesses goes far beyond people makings things up, despite my attempts to explain them. Sadly such myths about the reliability of eyewitnesses persist. Nil Einne (talk) 15:25, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

It is important to recognised that the eyewitness testimony given from all quarteres differs greatly. There is an inherent bias, fuelled by a combination of bad press and conduct of the Menzes family - against the police in this whole article when in fact, the jury itself was split between actual truths (8/2 split). What is clear is that the jury accepted almost all the eyewitness testimony that made hte police look bad, but rejected any eyewitness testimony that was based upon actual fact. The Jury also managed to completely ignore the innacuracy of earlier eyewitness testimony, but readily accepted later eye witness testimony despite uncertainty and disagreement between witnesses. The article does not refelct that and the seciotn I added under ticket barrier has been removed without explanation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.25.109.197 (talk) 13:03, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Yeah. The problem is Menezes family's conduct - it's not the police that killed him then lied about the circumstances. And eyewitness testimony that lays bare UK police brutality and incompetence is by necessity 'true'. Aren't you an impartial Britard piece of shit jingoist? Editing from a police department, perhaps? 177.98.140.154 (talk) 01:28, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Why is no mention made of the "photoshopping" of his picture by the police to increase his resemblance to Osman?86.44.142.197 (talk) 11:40, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Photoshopped Picture.[edit]

At then inquest, it was discovered that a picture presented by the police of de Menezes, had been photoshopped to enhance the resemblance between him and the suspect Osman. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.44.142.197 (talk) 11:44, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Not if you read the Daily Mail article that this article cites. --Bermicourt (talk) 17:03, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
That presents something of a problem since The Daily Mail is no longer considered a reliable source by Wikipedia. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/feb/08/wikipedia-bans-daily-mail-as-unreliable-source-for-website Flanker235 (talk) 00:38, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Channel 4 News (ITN) report on this and and other Wiki articles[edit]

It was reported on the above of this date that this page (and others) have been edited from government-owned computers. Does anyone know anything about this? SmokeyTheCat 18:06, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Merp607 (talk) 01:00, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

I think it would be a good idea to mention this in the article. Danrok (talk) 01:25, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
I don't think so, as the words "mountain" and "molehill" spring to mind. The article is predicated on the idea that there must be something "sinister" behind the edits, rather than in all liklihood being the opinions/actions of an unconnected individuals who edit from their place of work. It also makes the mistake of assuming a single editor on on IP, as opposed to a far more likely multiple of users/editors. If we looked, we could probably find a fair few Channel 4/ITN employees editing from work.
The IPCC edit specifically linked to dates back to 19 September 2007, and anyone looking at the page of the IP's editing history can see it in context. The same applies to their addition of this questionable comment on 19 September 2006, swamped in the IP's edits of a plethora of pages about football and animal rights. Nick Cooper (talk) 12:11, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
The report by that particular investigative (and general) reporter and her assistant for Channel Four News (ITN) is simply incorrect to assert that Jean Charles de Menezes was not an illegal immigrant based upon the Stockwell One report from the IPCC, which was probably faulty. Immigration is not usually a direct remit of the Police; thus it is also not under the direct purview of the IPCC. The IPCC has no power to declare and pronounce (or "clear") by their own authority in a report whether a person is or has been or a deceased person was or had been a "lawful (legal) immigrant" or an "unlawful (illegal) immigrant", as they had attempted to do in Stockwell One. The IPCC could only claim that Jean Charles de Menezes was not an unlawful (illegal) immigrant based upon the (misleading) premise that he had not been duly convicted of the relevant immigration offences arising from obtaining full-time self-employment as an electrician, by virtue of (by misrepresenting his immigration status, by possessing and presenting, and otherwise using) his Brazilian passport with on one of its pages a forged (out-dated) stamp which gave himself the indefinite leave to remain. "Ultra vires". -- Urquhartnite (talk) 22:34, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

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