Talk:Deaths in 2015

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Suicide: Cause?[edit]

One minute I seem to be alone in this world, and the next there is hope. But then a silent return to despair.

In plainer talk, suicide is a manner of death. It can go with any cause an accident or homicide can, but it's nothing more substantial or informative than "natural causes" by itself. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:22, September 11, 2015 (UTC)

I agree that suicide not a cause of death, as opposed to "self-inflicted gun shot wound" "suicide by hanging" or similar, as this is what I was taught in forensics[original research?] and which is verified elsewhere. I self-reverted myself however as I thought I may be being overly pedantic and assumed it wouldn't harm to discuss it here first.--Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 22:53, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
And I reverted you because I assumed foul play before considering the usernames. Edit suicide is far rarer than normal suicide, but appropriately meta, in this case. Still, poor call on my part.
Not too pedantic an issue at all. The two concepts are fundamentally different, despite having death in common. Like how length and width are "close enough". Or ethnicity and citizenship. Maiden names and middle names. All connected, but so are time of death, place of death, informant of death and the rest. Far different from the old fruit/vegetable debaucle/debackle. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:16, September 12, 2015 (UTC)
Alright, so it is a manner of death, but how is it wrong to report it? This is an encyclopedic webpage, and information about a person's suicide, whether or not how it was done is known, is relevant information.Nukualofa (talk) 14:16, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
The relevant information is "Name, age, country of citizenship at birth, subsequent country of citizenship (if applicable), reason for notability, cause of death (if known) and reference." InedibleHulk (talk) 14:11, September 12, 2015 (UTC)
That for sure is overly pedantic. Now you have to start removing all films etc mentioned on this page, as it is surplus information according to that list. Nukualofa (talk) 14:16, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
No, those are reasons for notability. InedibleHulk (talk) 14:29, September 12, 2015 (UTC)
It has been acceptable here over many years to include execution and suicide in describing death. If we did not, we would surely have Robin Williams and Saddam Hussein departing life with the same cause. WWGB (talk) 02:05, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
I'm definitely for including the manner, when it has a cause to complement and distinguish. But on its own, it's about as descriptive as plain "blue". Did you think I meant the sky? Not even close! Same as here. Puts just enough of an idea in people's heads for them to fill in the blank. It's not as bad as blatantly misinforming them by supplying our own guess, but if we don't have the actual answer, begging the question at all seems irresponsible. At the very least, it's a half-truth. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:21, September 14, 2015 (UTC)
Two of four doesn't seem like a majority. Unless I'm missing something, in a tie, we should keep the status quo ("typical entry" stuff). InedibleHulk (talk) 18:28, September 16, 2015 (UTC)
The majority definitely haven't had their say here. You are the only one removing it, and all other poster, as far as I know, still posts suicide as a cause, even when they don't know by which method. You are the one overruling a standard that has been here for years. It is pretty clear that most posters here find the information relevant, as they keep adding it, even if you don't. Anybody else want to have their saying?Nukualofa (talk) 18:57, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
If listing manners is standard, the bit at the top of the page about "cause of death" (which didn't just put itself there) needs to be amended. Do you suggest it be changed to allow homicide, suicide, accident and natural or just suicide? InedibleHulk (talk) 19:05, September 25, 2015 (UTC)
If that's what it takes to get you to stop your one-man war against listing it, then yeah, put them all up there. For the rest of us, common sense is enough. Nukualofa (talk) 19:08, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
That'll need consensus, too. More of "the rest of us" are against "natural causes" and "accident". InedibleHulk (talk) 19:11, September 25, 2015 (UTC)
We are here to inform readers. An overly pedantic interpretation of the wording, that results in the withholding from them of relevant and important information, is contrary to our remit. We do, incidentally, use terms like "traffic collision" (not "accident"). Should we be saying something like "blunt force trauma", rather than indicating they may have been hit by a vehicle? No, we shouldn't. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:11, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
We're here to inform readers of certain things. Survivors, funeral arrangements, city of birth and other important stuff is also routinely provided in sources, but if these types of information aren't called for at the top of the page, they're not relevant. In the decedent's article, sure. You're on board with allowing manner when we don't know a cause?
And we're apparently not supposed to say people were hit by vehicles. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:18, September 25, 2015 (UTC)
I'd be happy with "cause or manner of death". I really don't see any point in being over-prescriptive. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:23, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
Agreed. I also see no problem in reporting "natural causes" either, if that is the only information the source gives. Nukualofa (talk) 19:29, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
I still think "natural causes" is unnecessary. At least things like "suicide" are a bit more descriptive. All natural causes says is that the person died in a natural manner & I could see entries getting cluttered up if we started reporting "long illness"/"illness"/"natural causes" and such. If there's a clearly defined cause then that's what should be listed. Connormah (talk) 02:39, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

I honestly don't think it's anyone duty to detail MODs. I'm looking at you, suicide. The mention alone will draw those interested to the entry's page to find out the details, if they're not fans/stalkers and already know. Same goes for those with any COD given. Even if we list the full method (specifically, suicide), they will still go read, correct? — Wyliepedia 07:30, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

The only time we don't mention the cause is when we can't find a source. So readers shouldn't be able to find it, either. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:17, October 4, 2015 (UTC)

Request for Comment: Manners of death[edit]

Should "Deaths in 20xx" pages list manners of death (suicide, homicide, accident and natural), if known, in place of an unknown cause? This is not asking whether we should complement known causes ("suicide by hanging"). Just regarding standalone manners. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:32, September 28, 2015 (UTC)

See the "Suicide: Cause?" section above for prior discussion (on Talk:Deaths in 2015, if you're reading this elsewhere.) InedibleHulk (talk) 00:44, September 29, 2015 (UTC)
"Suicides": yes, regardless of method. "Homicides": no, method required. "Natural causes": no, too broad. Generic "illness": see "Natural causes". Death by vehicle: traffic collision, unless by train/plane crash. Any listed "accidental" death causes are too Final Destination for me. Cars veering off roads, guns killing people, houses falling on witches are not "accidents". How many times does this discussion need broaching? It's all (if known) or nothing, in my opinion. Coming here to read people getting twisted on improper listings every day or so is aggravating. — Wyliepedia 05:56, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
By "Deaths in 20xx", I literally mean till 2099. Whatever most resembles consensus when this is done shall become law, and we can all settle into this theoretically perfect compromise for 84 years. Nice and simple. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:13, September 29, 2015 (UTC)
Uh, no. — Wyliepedia 08:03, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
I'm in favour of listing whatever the source says of the manner or cause. There is a big difference between dying a natural death, committing suicide and being murdered, and if all we have to go with is the manner, then I'd prefer it. At least when it comes to suicides, executions and murders. Nukualofa (talk) 16:42, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
  • No standalone manners The cause is the distinctive, important bit. When a reader reads "hanging", "kidney failure" or "gunshot to head", they get a (fairly) clear picture of what went down. Adding a manner can help make those clearer, but a manner alone is too vague, and likely to make more readers guess the wrong cause than the right, just for the abundance of possibilities. Suicide is no better than the others, in that regard. I'm OK with exceptions for euthanized horses, because sources seem to never say how that's done. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:15, September 30, 2015 (UTC)
  • List manner of hastened death such as suicide, execution or euthanasia, whether the exact cause is known or not. Such deaths are generally more noteworthy than deaths by illness or misadventure. We could add "homicide" to that list, but that is bound to bring on further argument about homicide v. murder (the latter being a legal decision and not just an act). In summary, I'm supporting what we do at the moment. WWGB (talk) 05:31, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
  • If it ain't broke, don't fix it. We get enough conflicting MODs here from several outlets, some of which cite Twits and FB, one of which is now an acceptable cite template. I say, as per all the hundreds of other past discussions, if there's vagueness of C/MOD to bring individual ones here for purview. The only ones I see that get removed/altered with regularity are "illness" and "accident". Seems stable to me. — Wyliepedia 07:18, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
It's broken insofar as the top of the page tells us to list causes, but some regulars regularly add some manners and remove some others. Steeped in tradition or something, I'm just looking to discern which (if any) are OK and which aren't, so we can accurately tell newer visitors what a typical entry includes. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:13, October 4, 2015 (UTC)
  • Poorly formed RFC - No specific opinion - However, causes of death should be listed when known in enough detail to be informative, which is currently what we do. That is, "natural causes" is not a cause. Suicide or homicide is a cause, but the means of homicide should be listed. "Accident" is not a useful cause, but "car crash" is. What we do is all right. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:37, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
Suicide and homicide are not causes. They're manners, like natural or accident. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:38, October 8, 2015 (UTC)

Database reports/Recent deaths[edit]

Above a database report from Wikidata. Maybe it interests to you. Jura1 (talk) 14:51, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, we know. — Wyliepedia 15:19, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
I see. The above and the other report are essentially the same.
At Wikidata, there is also d:Wikidata:Database reports/Recently deceased at Wikipedia. It lists persons reported as dead in Wikipedia, but not yet at Wikidata. Jura1 (talk) 17:01, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Juan Carlos Ibáñez[edit]

His source clearly says (after translating) that he was beaten to death. This is further specified as punches and kicks. At first SunnyDoo wanted to say "blunt force trauma", which is both needlessly vague and not in the source. Now the cause is gone altogether, despite it being right there in the citation beside him. Every bit of synthesis here could equally be applied to Daniel Fletcher, who we note instead as a simple fall. What's good for Fletcher (following the source) is good for Ibáñez and everyone. Or no? InedibleHulk (talk) 05:19, October 8, 2015 (UTC)

Bull. Beaten is imprecise. No medical professional would ever put it on a Death Certificate. I tried to talk to Inedible but all he wants to do is knitpick. Somehow Cardiac Arrest (which is listed on DCs) is imprecise, but Beaten is precise. It isnt. Every trained medical person who fills out a DC knows that Beaten is Blunt Force Trauma. Here are some links to look at- http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/blunt-force-trauma.html http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1882786 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blunt_trauma http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1680107-overview. In each one, it lists beaten as Blunt Force Trauma and details what it covers. IE just cant admit he is wrong on this one.Sunnydoo (talk) 05:26, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
So what should we do with the shootings and stabbings? "Penetrating trauma"? "Cardiac arrest due to exsanguination"? Nothing at all because of an editorial decision that the reliable source isn't good enough? InedibleHulk (talk) 05:33, October 8, 2015 (UTC)
As I said on your talk page, Shootings, stabbings, traffic collisions can all have different actual causes of death from heart attacks, exsanguination, organ damage, blunt force trauma, etc etc. However, beaten with hands and feet can only cause death from blunt force trauma, unless in the rare case where someone punctures an artery with a fingernail. If they choked him that would be strangulation, but there is no indication of that. We have a source that says Beaten, which by the above links, would be listed as Blunt Force Trauma on the Death Certificate.Sunnydoo (talk) 05:43, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
Pulled from the news today is the story of a teen that was beaten to death by his parents. The ME has ruled the death from Blunt Force Trauma- although the investigation, toxicology and other autopsy reports by the ME's office will be ongoing. Here are the links to the story- http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/13/us/new-york-church-assault-case/ http://www.wsbtv.com/news/ap/us/parents-charged-with-fatally-beating-son-in-new-yo/nn2ry/. Sunnydoo (talk) 05:44, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

German redlinks???[edit]

Hi. Hover over a redlink. Why does it say "Seite nicht vorhanden" and not "page does not exist" on English Wikipedia servers?? Care to explain, or to fix? 86.113.56.177 (talk) 05:44, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Which one? All mine are in English. — Wyliepedia 08:20, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
Nevermind. Its fixed now. Weird. Sunnydoo (talk) 09:04, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
Sehr gut. — Wyliepedia 10:54, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
Wylie - obviously fixed by 0820 when you posted. Was a genuine glitch! Thanks. 86.113.140.200 (talk) 07:21, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
Forgive me for the three hours that I lived outside of Wikipedia and missed it. — Wyliepedia 02:30, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Sarcasm becomes you! 86.113.140.200 (talk) 13:26, 13 October 2015 (UTC)