Talk:Deportation of the Crimean Tatars

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Article milestones
Date Process Result
August 9, 2017 Featured article candidate Not promoted
November 23, 2017 Featured article candidate Not promoted
WikiProject Ukraine (Rated C-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ukraine, a WikiProject which aims to improve coverage of Ukraine on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
Checklist icon
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Soviet Union (Rated C-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Soviet Union, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors
WikiProject icon A version of this article was copy edited by Tdslk, a member of the Guild of Copy Editors, on 28 August 2017. The Guild welcomes all editors with a good grasp of English and Wikipedia's policies and guidelines to help in the drive to improve articles. Visit our project page if you're interested in joining! If you have questions, please direct them to our talk page.
 

English titles[edit]

A comment from an outsider: Sürgün indeed has a wider definition and use in Turkic languages than implied in this article. See for reference http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sürgün_(Imperio_Otomano). 8 July 2009.

I suggest using English for article titles and rename this into Deportation of Crimean Tatars (1944). We can still mention Sürgün in the article's text of course. --Irpen 20:40, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't really know what we should name the article, but we do have Holodomor and not Ukrainian famine which redirects to the article.. I am for either one.. —dima/s-ko/ 01:56, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, I am not sure it should not be the other way around in Holodomor. Secondly, Holodomor is at least somewhat, however little, established name in English literature on the subject. Can we say the same about Surgun? --Irpen 02:24, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Well no, it's not very established. Doing a quick google check, Sürgün + Crimea (so only English language links will popup) gives 718 ghits, and Deporation + Crimean Tatars — 36,500. Even Google books search yields more results for Deporation + Crimean Tatars (402) v.s. 12 on Sürgün.. So we should perhaps move the article (if no one else objects) since the title is not established in eng. lang. —dima/s-ko/ 02:36, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
However, official Crimean Tatar sources prefer to use Surgun or Sürgün. Moreover, I think even this term is rather modern, the Crimeans tend to use this term. The such situation could be observed at Paraimos. I think the title shouldn't be moved --Üñţïf̣ļëŗ (see also:ә? Ә!) 08:56, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

If the terms are used for articles' titles those should only be the ones that are established English names. In an absence of those, the descriptive name should be used. Deportation of Crimean Tatars (1944) would be a name that does not attempt to hide or white-wash anything but the reader is more likely to be able to get an idea of the article's topic from the title. Surgun is meaningless for those who don't know the Tatar language. --Irpen 17:33, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

As well as Holodomor, Porajmos, Holocaust, Urkun and other terms. Sürgün is not so widely used, but the mass-media tend to use it. --Üñţïf̣ļëŗ (see also:ә? Ә!) 18:39, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Holocaust is widely used. Holodomor is used as well. IMO, it is still better to rename it to Famine in Ukraine (1932-1933) but even as is it is still the term that can be found in English literature, unlike Surgun. I don't understand why you object and want to impose a non-English and an unknown term on the readers which would less likely to even click on the article under the titles that means nothing to them. Surgun can and will be me mentioned in the first line of the article. --Irpen 18:43, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
mmm... deportation itself means only deportation, whereas Sürgün includes not only deportation, but a life in exile too. Please, compare other events I'd listed, especially Urkun. User:Untifler
P.s. I'm not sure but sürgün is not Turkish fo r exile, Crimean only. User:Untifler
       It is both Turkish and Crimean for exile  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.104.50.40 (talk) 19:04, 31 May 2008 (UTC) 

Life in the exile is certainly a part of the deportation theme and can be covered in the article. I do not insist on my title. I just want something that sounds meaningful in English. If Surgun has any use, even as little as Holodomor I would have accepted it but it seems to me that for English it is a complete neologism. --Irpen 20:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

There is one more reason for the current name. Sürgün is a bit Turkified term. In standard Crimean Tatar the word sürgün means "someone who is exiled/deported", and the word for the "exile/deportation" is sürgünlik. Turks use term sürgün in both meanings. Don Alessandro (talk) 11:25, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Please provide citation for the statement that the alleged collaboration was a pretext. Personally, Stalin's very well documented paranoia sounds like a more plausible explanation to me. Andries (talk) 10:42, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

OMG, this is pure propaganda - 20 thousand Crimean Tatars served in Wehrmacht. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.74.230.177 (talk) 01:14, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

And I am in no way surprised they did. 197.228.26.63 (talk) 21:16, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
I think you meant the Waffen-SS. Crimean Tatars were not in the Heer or the German navy nor the Luftwaffe.

Served is wrong as most were forced. 88.250.71.19 (talk) 15:52, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Population graph[edit]

What's the source of information on that newly added graph by User:Ahnoneemoos? SkywalkerPL (talk) 13:07, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

NPOV[edit]

"Tatar people suffered from the man-made famine of Holodomor"

Holy hell. so much wrong with that already. This isn't even npov related but out right cold war era propaganda attacks. This world is getting scarier.

-G — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.31.38.213 (talkcontribs)

I am by no means an expert in Soviet/Ukrainian/Crimean Tatar history, but that sentence comes from an academic paper presented at the Columbia University by historian Otto Pohl, and is confirmed by National Geographic. These are rather reliable sources, however, if you elaborate on what makes these resources, which were published some time after the Cold War, "propaganda attacks", and support your claim with evidence, it would be contribute to the article in a more constructive way IMHO. I have already changed the wording a bit. --GGT (talk) 19:00, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Otto Pohl does't have any published papers on Tatars history. NG is not a historical institution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nanoworld (talkcontribs) 00:19, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
National Geographic and a historian from Columbia University are both good WP:RS. Jeppiz (talk) 00:25, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Number of deported[edit]

The article says:

  • (1) "A total of 238,500 people were deported"
  • (2) "183,155 - 193,865 Crimean Tatars were deported"

I understand these numbers are estimates by different authors based on different sources, and it is OK. However wikipedia must present these data in a reconciled form. Whoever has access to the sources cited, please do so.Staszek Lem (talk) 16:40, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

crematoria on wheels[edit]

  • The cars were called "crematoria on wheels" by Crimean Tatars.

I believe they were called so. But I also believe that it is an anachronism: AFAIK the general knowledge about crematoria in Nazi death camps was not commonly available until the end of the war. So I doubt that such an isolated place as Crimea had this term common enough to put it into a phraseology of the time. I would suggest to clarify the issue; e.g., I would expect something like: "In their memoirs, Crimean Tatars called these cars 'crematoria on wheels". Staszek Lem (talk) 16:56, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Sources for SS groups of Crimea Tatars[edit]

I cannot insert link to sources.


Official justification related with involvement about 20.000 Crimea Tatars in SS criminal actions of Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Regiment der SS (tatarische), Waffen-Verbände der SS [1] and "Schuma"[2]. Waffen SS soldiers from Crimea Tatars killed at least 15.000 civilians near "Krasny" village[3] SS-Waffengruppe Krim of Osttürkischer Waffenverband der SS killed many people in Poland during Warsaw Uprising[4]

  1. ^ "Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Regiment der SS (tatarische)". www.axishistory.com. Retrieved 2015-11-07. 
  2. ^ "Hitler's Soviet Muslim Legions". stosstruppen39-45.tripod.com. Retrieved 2015-11-07. 
  3. ^ "Государственный Совет Республики Крым". 2015-04-21. Retrieved 2015-11-07. 
  4. ^ "Osttürkischer Waffen-Verband der SS". www.axishistory.com. Retrieved 2015-11-07. 

Propaganda[edit]

Dear english speaking authors. This article turned to pure propaganda. A number of rumors and lie statements are cited from Pohl, Otto J. and so called International Committee For Crimea. This source is not per-reviewed scientific source and it can contain anything. Please fix this problem. My english knowledge does not allow me to do it myself — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nanoworld (talkcontribs) 15:24, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

There is nothing concrete in your comment, just a smear of a person you don't like. Future disruptive comments of that kind will be removed, as Wikipedia is not a forum. Jeppiz (talk) 00:28, 16 May 2016 (UTC)


Historian Statiev says about Pohl Pohl relies solely on published documents and offers a synthesis of Russian and Western writings.

In another page Pohl, Statiev says that Pohl is confusing the Ukranian famine with the Tatars of Crimea. As they have with the North Caucasian ethnic groups, some historians writing about Tatars baselessly attribute unrelated episodes and aspects of Soviet policy to this shift. Otto Pohl claims that(..)


So the work of Pohl is heavily critised.

--Istoria1944 (talk) 12:10, 1 May 2017 (UTC)


The greatest proportion of nazi collaborator[edit]

As a source i used The Nature of Anti-Soviet Armed Resistance, 1942-44: The North Caucasus, the Kalmyk Autonomous Republic, and Crimea, Alexander Statiev Kritika: Explorations in Russian and Eurasian History, Volume 6, Number 2, Spring 2005 (New Series), pp. 285-318 (Article), page 315 ", but the proportion of Tatar collaborators was the greatest, about 10 percent of the population;

if any problem exists, please inform to fix it. Please do not revert my contribution without justification, cause i used a university and reliable source--Istoria1944 (talk) 11:47, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Misleading and false claim[edit]

"Even though the Volga Tatars actually participated in collaboration in far higher proportion than the Crimean Tatars, with 35,000–40,000 volunteers fighting with the Axis, they avoided any kind of collective punishment."

This is absolutely astonishing. Whoever wrote this is lacking basic knowledge about the Soviet Union and its population. Per the 1939 census, there were about 200,000 Crimean Tatars and about 3.5 million Tatars in the rest of of Russia and including the Tatar, Chuvash, Bashkir autonomous regions.

It's estimated here[2]that about 300,000 Russians fought in Vlasov's ranks and other pro-German units. There were 100 million Russians in 1940. So that would mean 0.3% of Russians collaborated with the Nazis. At the same time, the lowest estimate is that 10,000 Crimean Tatars fought in Nazi Germany's ranks, but this estimate gives us a figure of about 35,000 Crimean Tatars that collaborated with the Nazis in one form or another[3]. So between 5% to 15% of all Crimean Tatars collaborated with the Nazis. At the same time, the Nazis occupied Belarus and there were an estimated 70,000 Belarusian collaborators out of a Belarusian population of about 7 million i.e. 0.93% of Belarusians collaborated with the Nazis.

I don't understand why the Volga Tatars have been slandered in this article? This source[4] shows estimates of 10,000 Crimean Tatars and 12,000 Volga Tatars collaborating with the Germans. There were 200,000 Crimean Tatars and about 3.5 million Tatars in the Volga regions and elsewhere in Russia. Based on this, 5% of Crimean Tatars collaborated with the Germans and 0.3% of Volga Tatars collaborated with the Germans. It is totally unfair to slander and make falsehoods about the Volga Tatars, they served honorably in the war.

15,000–20,000 Crimean Tatars collaborated with the Axis powers. In comparison, 35,000–40,000 Volga Tatars collaborated with the Axis powers. 35,000 or 40,000 is more than 15,000 or 20,000. What is the problem here? I don't know what "topwar.ru" is, but inserting random, obscure websites is not the right way to build a good article. See the reliable sources policy on Wikipedia. Also, this is English Wikipedia, and is under no obligation to use Russian language sources, which might be biased or unreliable with regards to its national past. People who do not speak Russian cannot verify your claims. All the claims in the text are sourced from reliable sources by scholars and historians or international and NGO sources, whereas potentially nationalistic sources are avoided. --Seiya (talk) 08:54, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

You are saying all your claims are sourced from reliable sources, but I have found it is not so. Your claims appear to be entirely OR and giving credence to only one claimed reason by the Soviet Union rather than all the claimed reasons. The 15,000 to 20,000 collaborators you are claiming are self-defense units from what I've read Fisher's book used in the article. Some of them may have had some collaboration like hunting down Soviet Partisans who also attacked Tatar villages, but the sources don't call all of them collaborators. In fact, the source Brian Glyn Williams' book says their main task was always to protect Tatar villages and they also sided with the the partisans sometimes. You should have taken a look at the sources yourself. The BBC source used here called collaboration as an excuse, not that it did happen. It is unacceptable to distort what is claimed by sources. Please don't distort reliable, it's not good behavior. MonsterHunter32 (talk) 11:26, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

OK, then how would you define "collaboration"? Even the articles Schutzmannschaft (police battalions) and Selbstschutz state that the units were loyal to the German army. They may have been self-defense units, but they were still armed and followed instructions from the German army. I don't mind expanding the section, but there has to be a limit somewhere. --Seiya (talk) 15:19, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
"Your claims appear to be entirely OR and giving credence to only one claimed reason by the Soviet Union". Please, read the "Modern views and Legacy" section. You have been a rather superficial reader of this article.--Seiya (talk) 15:48, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
Collaboration was not the real point, distortion of what sources said and removing reliably sourced edits of others was. All views should be presented. What other articles say or general claims is not what we have to base it on. What is collabaration: cooperation with an enemy. Saying no one collaborated is also wrong, but making general claims of all self-defense units as collaborators is also wrong especially when the scholarly source is saying something else. MonsterHunter32 (talk) 17:11, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
One of my main problems was also giving credence to only one thing and dismissing other views from some of the sections. We shouldn't overrule others anywhere wheter in lede or other sections of the article. MonsterHunter32 (talk) 10:04, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Genocide[edit]

Removing any accusations of genocide from the lede is a severe violation of NPOV and LEAD. Plumber (talk) 02:36, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with NPOV. Look at this template. It's just simply too huge to fit into the article, it distorts pictures and text. Actually, any article would have problems with this wall of text. My suggestion would be: a) either modify and shrink this template b) simply remove it, since there is no clear consensus that this event was genocide. It certainly was a huge crime, but it is not accepted universally to be included into the worst crime possible. c) use this template instead:--Seiya (talk) 08:39, 9 October 2017 (UTC)