Talk:Diamonds Are Forever (novel)

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Good article Diamonds Are Forever (novel) has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Good topic star Diamonds Are Forever (novel) is part of the Ian Fleming's James Bond novels and stories series, a good topic. This is identified as among the best series of articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so.
Article milestones
Date Process Result
October 24, 2011 Good article nominee Listed
April 17, 2012 Good topic candidate Promoted
Current status: Good article
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Diamonds Are/are Forever[edit]

“Are” is written with a lowercase “a” on the cover of the book. Shouldnt it be changed in the article?--Christoph Knoth (talk) 13:10, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Berkley printing vs Penguin[edit]

How come different printings of this book have slightly different wording. For example, when Bond asks Case if he may smoke, in the Berkley printing, she said "Not as long as it's tobacco.", but in the Penguin printing, she said "If that's how you want to die." I've noted similiar printing differences throughout the novel. The Berkley printing says that it contains the text of the original hardcover printing. Why would someone change the wording? Did Fleming himself later revise the novel? Do other novels have similiar alterations? Shouldn't the article make mention of this? Emperor001 (talk) 13:37, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Probably. But not maybe in detail and any comments should be properly referenced. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 13:55, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure how to reference and that still doesn't answer who changed the wording and why. If someone can give me these answers, I'll put them in the article. Emperor001 (talk) 14:41, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
If you can find the source and references to write up this one people here can help on how to reference. You could look at WP:CITET for info. I don't know the answer to your other question about the origin of the changes that is the nub of the thing. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 15:22, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Well, I'm using the novel printings themselves as sources. I don't know if there are other printings with similar differences. If there are, then people should add them. Emperor001 (talk) 18:09, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

The Crab With The Golden Claws[edit]

Has anybody noticed the similarity of Bond's stunt, when Bond climbs down from his cabin' porthole in Queen Elizabeth to another in Winter's & Kidd's cabin to save Tiffany Case with Tintin's stunt in The Crab with the Golden Claws? Of course Tintin has to climb to Captain Haddock's cabin, nevertheless, it's almost the same stunt. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.48.60.10 (talk) 20:11, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Upcoming GA Review[edit]

Hi, I will not have internet access next week (until Oct 2nd), but I will sort out any issues you may have from that time on. Cheers - SchroCat (^@) 10:20, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Counting the Novels[edit]

Has an error of counting slipped in?

At the start: "Diamonds Are Forever is the fourth of Ian Fleming's James Bond series of novels." Ergo, DAF is the fourth novel.

So why does one section say "previous three novels" and the other say "previous four novels" ?

"Characters and themes [...] building on what Fleming had written in the previous three novels."

"Release and reception [...] As with the four previous Bond books, the first edition (this time 12,500 copies) sold out quickly;" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.194.203.31 (talk) 19:36, 19 July 2015 (UTC)


GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Diamonds Are Forever (novel)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sarastro1 (talk · contribs) 23:37, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

I will review this in the next day or two. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:37, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

That's great - many thanks. I should be able to get most of your queries and points answered and edited within a few hours. Thanks again - SchroCat (^@) 08:03, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Looks good overall, and actually made me want to go and read the novel! Just a few points (some very nitpicky) to sort out. I've done some light copy-editing as I've gone through, but please feel free to revert anything that you're not happy with. (The main thing I did was to add in-text attribution of the quotes.) --Sarastro1 (talk) 14:09, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I think they're all good edits, although I tweaked one slightly: feel free to revert that if you don't like it! - SchroCat (^@) 15:33, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Lead
  • Some slightly odd linking in the first sentence; novel is linked to James Bond novels on the second instance. It may be more elegant to say "Diamonds Are Forever is the fourth of Ian Fleming's James Bond series of novels": and link "James Bond series of novels" to James Bond novels.
Yes check.svg Done - SchroCat (^@) 15:33, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
  • The lead is a little short; I think it needs some details from the Characters and themes and Background sections.
Yes check.svg Done - SchroCat (^@) 20:17, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Not too sure about "mixed" reviews. They seem somewhere between average and quite negative.
  • I think there are mixed as there is a very broad spread of opinions: The Observer and Sunday Times (Chandler) reviews are both positive right the way through to the Boucher very negative. Even within the same reviews they are mixed with the TLS both praising and berating Fleming. - SchroCat (^@) 15:33, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Plot
  • I don't usually review novels, so I'm not sure what is standard practise here. However, this section looks slightly long to me; it is roughly a third of the entire article and may be a little too detailed. Just as an example, I would cut "Two months after the Moonraker incident". I would suggest at least cutting a paragraph from it and would prefer (but not insist on by any means) cutting it to two paragraphs altogether. However, if GA or FA novel articles routinely have sections of an equivalent length, that would be fine.
  • I think the length is OK, from the other GA novel articles I've done. Casino Royale, Live and Let Die and Moonraker are all about the same length. The MOS doesn't give any firm guidelines on this, so I looked at other GA / FA novels to get an approximate idea. - SchroCat (^@) 15:33, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Then it's more of a personal preference, I suppose! If other articles are similar, the current length is fine. --Sarastro1 (talk) 15:40, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
  • I think the section may need a brief copy-edit but I will wait for the above point to be resolved.
  • I've had a go at copy-editing the plot. Please revert anything you don't like or that doesn't work. The copy-edit has addressed some of my concerns by cutting down the length slightly. My only questions that remains on this section are on the amount of detail in the final paragraph about the plot: possibly too much? Also, when "ABC" shuts down the operation, could it be explained why? Did he know Bond was on to him?
Yes check.svg Done - SchroCat (^@) 20:17, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
  • One other point also occurred to me; I have not read the book, but in the film, Wint and Kidd are homosexual. If this is also the case in the novel, is it worth mentioning? I imagine this was not common in Bond books, or any other books of this kind at the time.
Yes check.svg Done - SchroCat (^@) 20:17, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Characters and themes
  • "According to continuation Bond author...": Presumably this means someone who has written Bond novels after Fleming? It took me a few goes to work this out and only because I have a vague knowledge of this happening. Is it not a quite official "post"? But to the uninitiated, or someone looking at this from what they know of the films, it may need briefly explaining.
Yes check.svg Done - SchroCat (^@) 15:33, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
  • "this allowed Fleming to discuss the nature of marriage through Bond." Unless this can be expanded (i.e. discussed how? Saying it was good? Bad?), I would remove it as unnecessary detail.
Yes check.svg Done - SchroCat (^@) 15:33, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
  • A little expansion on the link between diamonds and death may be useful.
Yes check.svg Done - SchroCat (^@) 20:17, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
  • "With multiple locations and two villains, there was "no megalomaniac fervour, no weird self-obsession, at the dark centre of the plot"": Presumably this is in contrast to the previous novels?
Yes check.svg Done - SchroCat (^@) 20:17, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Background
  • "Gore complained about the use of his name, but was ignored by Fleming and the name was retained for the novel." It's not quite clear here whether Gore complained before or after the publication of the novel. The implication is that it was before, in which case Gore presumably read the manuscript?
Yes check.svg Done - SchroCat (^@) 15:33, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
  • " known to his friends as 'Boofy'": Should it be double quotation marks: "Boofy"?
Yes check.svg Done - SchroCat (^@) 15:33, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Release and reception
  • Although some sales figures are given, it may be worth including as much information as possible here. I noticed page 21 of the James Bond reader had some information, including the impact of the release of the films on the sale of the novels.
Yes check.svg Done - SchroCat (^@) 20:17, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
  • "Raymond Chandler said of Diamonds Are Forever that it was "about the nicest piece of book-making in this type of literature which I have seen for a long time...Mr. Fleming writes a journalistic style, neat, clean, spare and never pretentious"." I'm a little uncomfortable with a quote from an advert for the book being used here. If possible it would be better to access the original, as for all we know, the rest of his review may have said "however, the story is terrible"!
  • I am too, but I cannot find the review from which this is taken. The Sunday Times has no online archive prior to 1980 and it would need a trip to British Library newspaper archives for me to get the rest of the article.
  • Hmmm. It is quite a good quote, but the source makes me cringe a little. I suppose it is OK, but I think we are really stretching the source. Possibly state that the quote by Chandler as used in publicity for the novel? That would cover the source until a better one came along. I don't know. I'll have a think! --Sarastro1 (talk) 15:40, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
  • I've had a stab at getting both aspects in (ie, the review and the fact it was advertising copy) Let me know how that looks! - SchroCat (^@) 15:55, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Spot on, I think! It's not perfect, but covers it nicely in the absence of the full review.--Sarastro1 (talk) 16:09, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Maybe mention Black's comments about the lack of centre to the story here as well? Or maybe move the "centre: comment from the background to the review? Not sure.
  • I've tried to keep the reviews section just for the contemporary reviews that were released at the time the book was published, whilst Black's book is not a review per se, but an in-depth study of the politics surrounding Bond.
Adaptations
  • Again, possibly mention the impact of the film's release on the sales of the book.
  • I've added it to the Release and reception section: does it need it here too?
References
  • Only able to so limited checks, but managed to look at enough through Google Books and an Amazon preview of the Lycett book to be happy apart from some very minor points.
  • Ref 5 gives page 52, but according to google books, the page which supports the information is page 25.
Yes check.svg Done - SchroCat (^@) 18:16, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
  • "...which led to a subsequent rise in the sales of the novel": Ref 21 does not quite support this; this suggests that the specific serialisation helped the specific novel to sell more. The source merely says that the (generic) strip helped general sales of the novels.
Yes check.svg Done - SchroCat (^@) 18:31, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
  • The refs are for Black 2004, but the publication date in the bibliography is 2005.
Yes check.svg Done - SchroCat (^@) 15:33, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Other stuff
  • Images are fine, and the fair use image seems good. No dab links and all external links working fine.

Overall, an excellent article and no real problems to prevent it passing quickly. Just a few issues to sort. I'll place this on hold for now to allow for the above issues to be discussed or worked on. --Sarastro1 (talk) 14:09, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I've addressed a few of the more easily addressed points and I'll have to look at the others in more depth this evening. I've marked above those I've had a chance to deal with or can comment on, but that doesn't mean I'm not doing the rest - I just need to be able to spin through my reference material again to do it properly. Cheers - SchroCat (^@) 15:33, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
I think I've covered it all now, but please let me know if there is anything you feel still needs further examination. Cheers - SchroCat (^@) 20:17, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Last two points
  • "The main theme in the novel writ large in the title, according to Benson and the theme is used to contrast other aspects of the writing, especially love and life.": I'm possibly being dense, but I don't quite understand this. What is the theme? I follow the metaphor of death, but I'm not getting "writ large in the title" and how this links to love and life. The fault may be with the source rather than the article!

Yes check.svg Done Done, I hope! the original wasn't too clear, but I hope that this version is... - SchroCat (^@) 21:39, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

  • Regarding sales, are there any overall sales figures apart from the first print run? It would be good to know how many copies sold altogether (or at least up to a certain date). It may also be interesting to compare sales to other Bond novels. However, I appreciate this may not be possible. (I don't suppose we know if it made it onto any "bestseller" charts if such things existed then?)
  • I've not found any bestseller references for this one although there are for later books. There is some very limited information from Pan about their book sales, but that doesn't take into account all sales by any means. - SchroCat (^@) 21:39, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Once these last two points are addressed (or you have told me to stop being thick!) I will happily pass. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:40, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

All good now, fantastic work. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:46, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
That's fantastic news: thanks very much indeed! - SchroCat (^@) 21:49, 24 October 2011 (UTC)