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23chaosmosis (talk·contribs), Zlouiemark45546 (zlouiemark) and Thnidu, what good reason is there to remove that image? "Emotionally vivid"? So are the lead images in the Major depressive disorder and Self-harm articles, respectively (as currently seen here and here). People made similar arguments for removing the cutting image from the Self-harm article; see here for an example. The IP argued, "I have taken out the picture of the injured arm because this image could be triggering to self-harmers who view this page." I reverted, stating, "The self-harm image helps people understand this mindset, is presented in an encyclopedic manner." That person showed up again as a different IP, and was reverted again. Then Fraggle81 made a hidden note about the image, which I tweaked.Doc James has also been against its removal, as seen by the "reverted again" diff-link and currently in this discussion. If there is some valid Wikipedia:Offensive material guideline rationale for removing the lead image for the Dissociative identity disorder article, then I can agree with its removal. Either way, I don't feel strongly about its removal, but I don't think that the removal should have a WP:IDON'TLIKEIT rationale. Flyer22 (talk) 00:55, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
Flyer22 (talk·contribs) i guess it's quite a vague depiction. there's something that's not in there and there's something that shouldn't be in that abstract painting. i could give you several reasons. i know its not perfect but i dont think its necessary. zlouiemark[ T ] [ C ] 01:31, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
The image has been present a long time. We need further discussion and consensus before we remove it. We often use abstract art for mental illness. And this is common practice in the field of psychiatry / psychology. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:05, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
Zlouiemark45546, like I stated, I don't feel strongly about the image staying or going. But I prefer that it's there; images (especially lead images) usually make an article more welcoming to our readers (I'm speaking from personal experience editing this site). So, Doc James, I agree with your restoration of the image. Flyer22 (talk) 02:09, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
@23chaosmosis, Doc James, and Flyer22: I know a number of people, both on the web and in RealSpace™:-), for whom some topics and images are potentially triggery, and other people who routinely preface their posts with trigger warnings if appropriate. This seemed to me to be a picture that could be such a trigger: though neither of the objections mentioned that explicitly, I felt that "emotionally vivid" could refer to such a quality for that writer, and so I deleted it.
But I wasn't aware of the parallel history at Self-harm. Having read your replies, I withdraw my opposition to the picture, pending possible further discussion introducing relevant new material.
(BTW, irrelevantly to the present discussion, I feel some sympathy for the IP in the Self-harm discussion. A personal history of self-harm is a very valid reason for desiring anonymity, and the different IP could very easily be simply an artifact of anonymous login, possibly from different public computers (e.g., in a library).) --Thnidu (talk) 04:13, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia fills an interesting space in publishing. We are not a self help guide for patients and we are not a medical textbook for practitioners. We are sort of a bit of both. People have tried to remove the image at vertigo as they said it made them worse. People have tried to move the image at smallpox as they felt it was unpleasant. People have tried to remove the images at Mohammad as they have been deemed culturally insensitive. People have tried to remove the images at Rorschach test as they supposedly give away the tests secrets. I think Wikipedia would be a lot less educational if we were to remove a large portions of the images.
Thnidu, I understand the "triggering" argument. That's why I cited an IP's "triggering" argument above. I also cited that IP's argument in this discussion at the Sexual assault talk page when debating with AThing. As you can see there, I took part of my wording from there for this dissociative identity disorder discussion. I also relented in that case, and Liesbeth98 removed the image. But "triggering" arguments are not how Wikipedia is supposed to work unless there is a valid WP:Offensive material rationale. I only relented in the case of the Sexual assault article because of the WP:Offensive material rationale that AThing put forth. Others might agree or disagree with the removal of that image. I don't care as much anymore if it stays or goes; I didn't care much then either, but, like I noted above, I think removals should be valid. Flyer22 (talk) 04:49, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
@Doc James and Flyer22: Thanks for the explanations. As I said above, I withdraw my objections to the picture. --Thnidu (talk) 14:33, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
This edit by Dumb daisy has many problems, even now that a source (without page numbers) has been added for the unsourced text.
There's no need to use a primary source for this article when there are plenty of reviews. See WP:MEDRS.
All of the added text assumes one particular controversial model of DID is correct. We can cite the 2014 review, but we cannot take its controversial conclusions as fact per WP:YESPOV. Many recent sources continue to question the evidence base for the trauma model of DID, such as:
- Lynn SJ, Lilienfeld SO, Merckelbach H, Giesbrecht T, McNally RJ, Loftus EF, Bruck M, Garry M, Malaktaris A (2014). "The trauma model of dissociation: inconvenient truths and stubborn fictions. Comment on Dalenberg et al. (2012)". Psychol Bull140 (3): 896–910. doi:10.1037/a0035570. PMID24773505.
Please reference the exact patients that reported 4,500 "alters" and show me that they had some clue what this person was even talking about please.Dumb daisy (talk) 17:51, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
In reply to KateWishing ultimately the DID page is a poor source for anyone attempting to find information on the subject. 2015 consensus does not support this objective as seen in the most recent review article on the subject which I have quoted and property cited in the section in which I have edited - symptoms. My knowledge of the subject is substantial and just because knowledge of other editors is lacking is not a reason I should cease to edit. The article has been traditionally sourced by primary sources including books, journal articles and even old text books which are Wikipedia approved, but are meant to portray a mainstream idea, rather than a knowledgeable one. Wikipedia does reject the most current views, and instead supports time worn stances and so do my edits. My addition of the primary source I added was to support what was already on the page and accepted, but reworded. I combined many out of place sentences for readability. The text I added that you object to is supported by the current DSM and the most current review article on the subject at hand. What was removed was subjective ideas presented by "patients with DID," which should have never been included in the article. Your POV is evident that you do not agree with the most recent review article on DID or the overall 2015 consensus on the subject, but your POV is irrelevant. If you wish to contest me, show me your references and I will read them, including all books and within one hour time I will report back to you and you can debate with me personally about what is a subjective view by those authors or not, but I will win a debate, but of course not wikipedia bullying because I don't spend more than a few minutes time here every few years, but that might change soon. Your objections keep following the same path which is the current text has historic value and so should stay no matter what, but that is not the goal of Wikipedia. I contest that subjective patient views should be eliminated from the page. I also state that I have only worked on the symptoms paragraph, and symptoms are not subjective, but you still argue subjective patient views should remain.Dumb daisy (talk) 17:30, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
I already provided five reviews above which question the trauma model, including two from 2014. There is no "2015 consensus." DID remains as disputed as ever. Also consider WP:MEDDATE, which states "While the most-recent reviews include later research results, this does not automatically give more weight to the most recent review." KateWishing (talk) 17:42, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
I never presented the "TRAUMA MODEL." I present solid facts and neurology and neurology has factual MRI scans to back up what it reports.Again I say pick a stance and stick with it. Either this page uses primary sources, secondary sources, expert authored books or it uses only old text books and the most current review article. You can't cherry pick what you want and don't want. Choose one stance.Dumb daisy (talk) 23:24, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
KateWishing email me the entire articles and books for review. I will not write on a summary of something. I must see the raw data. I take the POV of neuroscientists and not of psychologists, so I argue your standpoint. Psychology which you are quoting is subjective at best. Show me neurological scans, animal studies and the like that support your POV. According to past editors of this page the newest reviews are the most heavily weighted. If you would like to remove that POV, then I will play by the new rules. I have no problem with either stance, but pick one and stick to it. An email will be provided if necessary. Dumb daisy (talk) 17:47, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
KateWishing The ISSTD reports the consensus for DID. This is a reference already on the page and even used at the bottom for places to turn to for more information. https://www.isst-d.org/downloads/GUIDELINES_REVISED2011.pdf The few rouge psychologists that you mention cannot form a consensus or even a differing opinion from mine because my edits are neurological based and theirs either are not or they don't understand what they are talking about and I can prove that. Those few rogue scientists you list can state their opinion. Their opinion does not equal a consensus. It's America and we can all argue our POV, but we can't call our arguments a consensus, but AGAIN I support the view of neuroscientists and not of anyone who calls themselves a psychologist or psychiatrist. At the same time I do read all reports by psychologists and psychiatrists and then look for hard evidence in brain scans. Subjective psychology is not hard evidence.Dumb daisy (talk) 17:56, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
I reverted you. We should work out these matters here at the talk page. Your content has been challenged by two different editors now, and WP:Edit warring is discouraged. You can propose changes here at the talk page, and we can debate them, and then, per WP:Consensus, add text we've agreed upon. Flyer22 (talk) 21:17, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
Flyer22 state your reason for reverting good edits. Talking on a talk page is not required for editing on Wikipedia when they are good edits and are sourced. You are in violation of Wikipedia etiquette (which exact rule I could not care less).
Dumb daisy, keep in mind that we are not debating which perspective on DID is correct. The issue is how to present both perspectives in accordance with Wikipedia's policies. You want us to present one perspective as fact, but we only do that when other views are very fringe. Scott Lilienfeld, Elizabeth Loftus, and other critics are mainstream scholars who published their reviews in mainstream venues. Many sources state that DID is one of the most controversial diagnoses in the DSM; even your 2014 review opens by noting the controversy. So we shouldn't take any particular side in Wikipedia's voice.
Lilienfeld is an expert of psychopathy and not DID. Lofus is an expert on false memory and not DID. Your case is weak and I contest it. Journal article begin with that statement that DID is contested, which I hate, but they still do it and you use it for information here, while the authors of the article usually use it to present the fact that DID is NOT controversial, but the controversy but a very few is inconsequential but it gets the researchers grant money to write and work with.Dumb daisy (talk) 23:24, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
Like Flyer22 said, you can propose changes here and we can work to make them policy-compliant. KateWishing (talk) 01:03, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
KateWishing and Flyer22 both argue that the most current REVIEW article is not appropriate for this article, and that can only be because it goes against THEIR POV! Prove your point on this topic or stand down.23:24, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
Then I propose that you both bone up on your neuroscience because from what I see this DID page is pathetic. I propose all the changes I made and a whole lot more, if I cared at all about this page, but once in a while I drop in when bored and watch what a mockery people make of Wikipedia . Make your arguments against my changes here and I will debate them with you, but it's clear your plan is just to keep me on the talk page and leave the DID Wikipedia page as it is, because that's what people like you do, and I am not making personal attacks, this is a scientific observation of Wikipedia bullying. First state your objection to the quoted section from the most recent review article that does give the most current consensuses on the subject.Dumb daisy (talk) 23:24, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
DSM-5 and 2015 Review article on DID and KateWishing & Flyer22's refusal to let me add that info to the DID page
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
KateWishing and Flyer22 I have been patiently waiting, but I need actual debate on what was reverted to my edits or I will have to assume I now have the right to revert your reverts of my good edits. Please detail each point I addressed and why your POV is that the most current DSM and Review article on DID cannot be used in a WP article on DID.Dumb daisy (talk) 17:31, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
I never said that the 2014 review article could not be used. You just added it in an inappropriate way. It needs to be attributed per WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV ("According to a 2014 review ...", "A 2014 review concluded ...", etc.), rather than left as a raw quote. It also does not belong in the "Signs and symptoms" section; the part you quoted is more relevant to "Diagnosis" and "Causes". I might add it myself later. KateWishing (talk) 18:28, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
KateWishing A "raw quote" is the conclusion of the authors of the article and is perfectly acceptable. I agree the entire article needs updating, but I chose a section that would upset people with your obvious POV the least, since symptoms is a section where subjective views are not entertained, and so hard evidence is what I added. Revert my changes or add a better argument.Dumb daisy (talk) 18:47, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
It is the opinion of the authors of the review (who are all long-term proponents of one perspective on DID). Other reliable sources have reviewed the literature and reached the opposite conclusions.KateWishing (talk) 19:03, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
Answering your post that you deleted: LOL, I might be a bit over qualified, but I don't yet hold a degree in DID, so I come here without those credentials and my user name attests to the idea that I am dumb. Answer this KateWishing, why would anyone that wrote a review article summarize all they found wrong in the field of DID instead of what they feel is correct? In addition, answer this. Why is it that this DID page MUST be presented in such a controversial fashion when DID has not been considered controversial since at least the year 2000, except by a few rouge researchers that like to stir up controversy so they get funding for research? I also add that any credible author or researcher today takes the view of what you call one perspective on DID. "Since you want to talk about me personally, answer this. Why do you care what my degrees are if you are not going to actually debate me on the subject of DID? I am always up for debate and I read quickly if I am supplied with information, so lets go at it but don't give me links, I want actual text. A good debate makes my day! By the way, a user page could be nothing but lies. Do you really think someone could hold so many degrees as my page says I do? Donald Duck holds them, but he swears he is smarter than me, so sometimes I borrow his degrees as my own. My page also says I'm a bit off my rocker. Does that discount my ability to edit on WP too, but now you have removed all you said about me, and that's okay, because we both know you did write it.Dumb daisy (talk) 19:30, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
You say that "DID has not been considered controversial since at least the year 2000," but a 1999 survey found that "only about one-quarter of [board-certified American psychiatrists] felt that diagnoses of dissociative amnesia and dissociative identity disorder were supported by strong evidence of scientific validity." There have not been any recent surveys of that kind, but the literature continues to bear out the controversy. KateWishing (talk) 20:26, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
And Kate, only about half of the world believes in Santa Clause too, and yet he is very real. Experts on the history of Santa Clause however understand that he is not only real but many of the myths about him were actually true. So psychiatrists, mainly educated in by antiques, or are antiques themselves are likely to not believe in Santa, but those who work with or research the DD have a deeper understanding. Your point is mute, and I do believe in Santa and I get lots of present under my tree. How about you? Now that's said, I will go and read the survey and I expect that it is something that is verifiable according to WP and can be used on this page, or I'm wasting my time. Dumb daisy (talk) 21:43, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
Kate, that was a total waste of time. The article is by those rouge researchers who I mentioned do this so they can get funding: Pope HG Jr1, Oliva PS, Hudson JI, Bodkin JA, Gruber AJ. And while their supporters don't want to hear that, I know these people all to well and that is what they do. None of them are considered experts on DID. Please provide information by those who focus on DID, and are not just looking for something easy to publish, and controversy is always an easy sell, but it's disgusting to call it research. Dumb daisy (talk) 22:15, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
Adding DSM-5 language is one thing. And the DSM-5, as noted in its Wikipedia article, is highly disputed by experts. Adding poor content with inappropriate language (such as "It is important to understand"), as you recently did, is another. You added that "the most current journal review article on DID states that 'existing data show DID as a complex, valid and not uncommon disorder, associated with developmental and cultural variables, that is amenable to psychotherapeutic intervention.'" So because of that review, we are supposed to believe that DID is not rare, despite all the evidence to the contrary that it is? DID is hotly contested, and that it's hotly contested is not old news. A recent review does not make it any less an extremely controversial diagnosis. It does not trump the vast majority of literature on this topic; read WP:Due weight. You should stop adding this disputed content to the article without a WP:Consensus here first. It is needless WP:Edit warring. Either way, I see that I need to alert WP:Med to this discussion. Also, per Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#New topics and headings on talk pages, you should not address us directly in talk page headings. Flyer22 (talk) 00:24, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Flyer22, Are you really going to take the stance that the ultimate guide to psychology is controversial and so it cannot be used. LOL State here what is poor content that I just added. I am using language by the DSM-5, which is highly appropriate. Yes, I added a direct quote from a 2014 REVIEW journal article, which is appropriate content. I actually do believe DID is rare, but that is not the current consensus of experts that study and research DID. I only have put their stance on the page, and not my own. I would write my own page, but I would have to start by throwing this whole article in the trash and writing unreferenced because I don't agree with even one expert out there, but have no interest in changing their direction because eventually they will get it right. What evidence by an actual EXPERT (person that just writes on the DD) shows that DID does not exist? It should not be edit warring at all. I should be allowed to edit. I am using the same referencing that is found throughout the page, and in many cases used already existing referencing for ease since I know whatever I write will be instantly reverted so I don't put more than a few minutes into the work. The most current REVIEW article on the Exact Subject At Hand is NOT controversial! Oh my, I am going to court and that means more bullies will gang up on me. Perhaps I should have my entire class gang up on all of you, but that would go against WP policy wouldn't it? "you should address us directly in talk page headings." I do. I must go for the night. I am getting time off for good behavior and getting out of the basement where my computer is hiding behind boxes, because I'm not suppose to be on it! Dumb daisy (talk) 00:39, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
I didn't state that "the ultimate guide to psychology is controversial and so it cannot be used." The DSM-5 is not "the ultimate guide to psychology"; that is your personal opinion. If it were "the ultimate guide to psychology," it wouldn't be so scorned by health professionals/experts. Maybe you should read up on just how rejected the DSM-5 is. I was simply noting that it's highly disputed. And as is clear in this WP:Med DSM-5 archived discussion, we do not give the DSM-5 more weight than what the literature generally states on a topic. As for what I took issue with regarding this material, I already explained in that WP:Edit summary and above. I will now be contacting WP:Med to weigh in on this dispute. Flyer22 (talk) 01:05, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
The DSM-5 is nothing more than a manual that reports the minimum criteria needed to Dx a mental disorder. There is nothing to be controversial about, but still people that don't understand it or want their own way will argue the fact. I helped write the DSM-5, so I know the ins and outs of it, or am I lying? hmmm... Can't have anyone too smart of WP, or it's a problem. The main outspoken person is Allen and that's because he was the chair for the DSM-IV and while I love him to death because we are blood, he is still just blowing smoke because he likes to.Dumb daisy (talk) 01:12, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
If you are suggesting that your intelligence is superior to mine, or to KateWishing's, that is a suggestion you should very much reconsider. As for your credentials, unless your medical identity is validated like Doc James's or James Cantor's (see their user pages), editors should be skeptical of you claiming a medical background, including claims of writing the DSM-5. We are familiar with Essjay types here at Wikipedia. I alerted WP:Med. Flyer22 (talk) 01:26, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
I'm not. My IQ has never been tested, and I admit I am dumb. Doc James, white hotter that f... is just one Doc and I am skeptical of those who do not honestly study DID and as I have said I don't agree with the current consensus of DID but I certainly don't agree with the likes of those who you promote who are my friends in one life, but this is WP and our POV is irrelevant and so I promote female that has been educated by great men, the current consensus of those who are considered to be experts in the area of DID (ISSTD) are what need to be presented here. Although I don't know what an Essjay type is I am very real, very female and very much a thinking human and so I deserve some respect from you as a WP editor and while the extremely handsome Doc James is a physician I find it intolerable that you go to him for matters of psychology because that's not his area of expertise, and while I bow to his genius in medicine I don't bow to his testament of DID because in his world DID (Canada) is still a forbidden area of science because like most scientists he must abide why the whole and not by what he thinks as an individual, and while he has never delved deeply into DID, I invite him into my personal world where he and I will debate many things and he will find that I accept him and he accepts me and we will bond in ways that you cannot comprehend, and if he is afraid to do this then I apologize because I took the man for someone that wants to learn beyond what he already knows, and like Matthew, he will come to realize the truth and people like you will be discarded, because he is capable of truth where you are not or I would take you to my world and love you and teach you, but you are not teachable, but Doc James is and I already love him for that, and I need to go now because as usual I have said too much, but I have faith in you Dr. James and that's all you need to know about me.Dumb daisy (talk) 02:25, 23 October 2015 (UTC)3
You are speaking gibberish, including when it comes to me with statements like "we will bond in ways that you cannot comprehend." Not only are you speaking gibberish, and I don't believe a word of what you state, you are incompatible with Wikipedia. Find a different place for your advocacy. Wikipedia, per WP:Advocacy, is not it. Flyer22 (talk) 02:34, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Flyer 22 some things are not meant for your ears and so discard them. What you and I have s a dilemma and it's nothing personal because I take nothing personal because I have been to Hell and back more times than you can even imagine, but I am trying to get you to understand that WP is about consensus and the ISSTD determines consensus and you are so lost in a misinformed history it's pathetic, and I want to hold your hand and bring you into 2015 but I know others have held your hand before I have and so that's impossible, and so we are opponents, but understand I am not your enemy and you and I speak the same language and as such I do love you, but I cannot abide by the old rules of those that seek to control you because I am not them and they now know who I am and they will fight me as long as they can keep their ancient lives on this earth, and they might win before they die, but I don't care because I am young and when I do die my words will be broadcast throughout the world and those are too far on the fringe will be known as nothing but idiots, as it should be, but they still have time to embrace me or at least the current consensus but I will tell the truth because no one knows it but me, and that's how history will see it. Gibberish is a tool of "skeptics," who are those you support. Now I am again locked in the basement and held for trial, so perhaps I shall return and perhaps not, but I and you will both know soon. Dumb daisy (talk) 03:07, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Dumb daisy, I would report you to WP:ANI for your highly inappropriate behavior, especially your misguided commentary at this talk page, but I'd rather not waste that much time on you. Yes, gibberish is not for my ears...or eyes. Flyer22 (talk) 03:36, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
You are Vanished user 54564fd56f45f4dsa5f4sf5 (talk·contribs), previously known as Tylas, correct? You certainly talk like that editor (look at all of Tylas's posts on that talk page from back then); Tylas loved focusing on the ISSTD, and he (or she) would use the word skeptics like you. I never forgot that editor, since he (or she) stressed out a lot of people, especially WLU, with their POV-pushing. Flyer22 (talk) 04:15, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
This "DID was found to be a complex yet valid disorder across a range of markers. It can be accurately discriminated from other disorders, especially when structured diagnostic interviews assess identity alterations and amnesia. DID is aetiologically associated with a complex combination of developmental and cultural factors, including severe childhood relational trauma." is not a signs or a symptom. Thus it was added to the wrong spot. Additionally we should be paraphrasing content not quoting sections that do not need to be quoted as their are copyright concerns to that approach. Best Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:17, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
State here and now what is acceptable referencing for this article and REMOVE anything that does not following these stated guidelines, and that's the rules we will play by
I contest the full REVERT by Flyer22 to my newest edit. Flyer22 says it's because of one reference & so she reverted the entire section. If you don't want to remove all the ref that you list here, then I will. Please state the rules you want to play by within 24 hours. Thank you. Dumb daisy (talk) 00:22, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Why are you God of the talk page and I have to do as you say Flyer22? Why are you and KateWishing God of the DID page and I'm treated like an idiot. I'm a human too and you've hurt my little feelings now, so stop being so mean or I'm gonna cry. Let me be clear on something and I know it won't get through your noggin' but there is controversy about everything because people thrive on it, but the DSM-5 is the bible so to say of psychiatry and DID current consensus is not your POV and it's not mine either, but I am reporting the consensus while you are trying to trump up some make believe controversy like we are debating God, and there is no evidence for God so it's not really controversial, but there is now set in stone fMRI scans of hundreds of people with DID and so it is not controversial it is a fact and I don's disregard facts, although I don't agree with many things, I do agree with facts and the fact is there is DID and lots of folks have it, but in a world with so many I still think it's rare but my POV is irrelevant and so it yours.Dumb daisy (talk) 00:45, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I find it difficult to believe; I cannot find this claim in the source cited. Please provide more detail and a quote. I apologize for inconvenience, but this is a really extraordinary claim. In fact, several time I witnessed vandalism of putting weird numbers in text, so I am wary. - üser:Altenmann >t 07:16, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
"Within one individual, there can often be anywhere between 2 and 100 or more personalities, with approximately 50% of individuals reporting 10 or fewer distinct identities, although extreme cases of many as 4,500 alters have been reported"KateWishing (talk) 13:57, 13 November 2015 (UTC)