Talk:Dutch language

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Comment[edit]

"Dutch language, spoken in Aruba, Belgium, Curaçao, the Netherlands, Sint Maarten, and Suriname." Speling12345 (talk) 3:52, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Dutch Nation[edit]

Added a para for us, hope that is okay... (Niet veel links) :) Zarpboer (talk) 06:06, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately it's not really "okay". Following your edit, 2/5 paragraphs in the lead is about South Africa, and that would seem WP:UNDUE. I'm sure the information you added can be used in the article, but I don't think the lead is the right place for it.Jeppiz (talk) 09:06, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for your POV, Jeppiz but your POV does not seem NPOV. The article is about Dutch Language? My contribution was about the Dutch Language? Yet there is a section dedicated to "Afrikaans" which is a recognised language of the world, by itself? is this not also POV? Can you please help me understand your POV better, so I can understand if it is NPOV or not? Zarpboer (talk) 10:28, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
I think my point was pretty clear, did you read WP:UNDUE? I see no reason why 2/5 paragraphs in the lead should be about explicitly about Dutch in South Africa.Jeppiz (talk) 10:56, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
If your problem is with the 2/5 paragraphs why did you not simply remove the line breaks? And Jeppiz why did you not then relocate the contribution to the position, where in your POV, it is best suited? - As it stands now, you have simply removed it and although you have said: "I'm sure the information you added can be used in the article" you have not exactly acted in a decent way? - Can you maybe tell me why? Zarpboer (talk) 12:04, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
I'll gladly tell you why. I found that the information is already extensively covered in the article, in this section Dutch language#Afrikaans. Furthermore, the term "Dutch nation" does not seem encyclopedic and be your own invention.Jeppiz (talk) 12:38, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
In effect, you were not truthful? It is that you do not agree with the content and not about the 2/5 para. Okay, thank you Jeppiz for explaining your POV. But: Factually the Dutch language of the South African Republic, was NOT Afrikaans, please see my reference for that fact. So, you are in fact wrong by referring me to Dutch language#Afrikaans - Can you please check your facts and then be big enough to admit that you were wrong? (Not about your POV, but about your FACTS) And, then in the same trend your edit seems to have been NPOV. Will you please undo your edit - and please, I do agree that the 2/5 para is too much, a single line will suffice? Zarpboer (talk) 14:27, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
Just giving you my citation, again: Select_constitutional_documents_illustrating_South_African_history_1795-1910. pp. 481–482. https://openlibrary.org/books/OL24129017M - Please note that historically, the South African Republic opposed the use of Cape Dutch / Afrikaans Language. - there are many more citations for that, please let me know if you think we need to write a paragraph, Then I can give you at least 12 citations from books published between 1880 and 1903. Thanking you kindly Jeppiz - just to fix an error - I meant your edit was NOT NEUTRAL, so Not NPOV, sorry about not adding the "not". - So this is what I wanted to add: If my sentence is not correct, can you please improve it? - The fact is that my edit IS about the Dutch Language, It IS about the history of the Dutch Language - and what I did add was: The African country of South African Republic spoke only Dutch and it was illegal[1] to speak or write any other language under criminal penalty. - Any feedback? Zarpboer (talk) 15:09, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
Jeppiz - how about placing the sentence under the section that deals with Africa and history of the Dutch Language? - That is the correct place for it, imho? - this is not personal, please - it also is not a point of view - it is a simple fact of history, which you are repressing - Please think about whether you are acting from a neutral point of view - as I have pointed out before - any feedback from you yet? Zarpboer (talk) 11:10, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
Do you want to change the sentence? Or are you just completely opposed to adding the information? The sentence was: The African country of South African Republic spoke only Dutch and it was illegal to speak or write any other language under criminal penalty. - Please respond? Zarpboer (talk) 11:13, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Proposed Changes Removal and Additions - Discussion: Comments Requested[edit]

Please accept my intentions as good and neutral and for improving the page and not for the marketing/sales/promotion of any specific view or opinion.
The "Afrikaans" section of this page: I want to remove this completely: The earlier century-long isolation from the rest of the Dutch-speaking world made the Dutch as spoken in Southern Africa evolve into what is now Afrikaans."
Reasons: The Zuid-Afrikaansche Republiek (ZAR) attracted many many thousands of Dutch citizens as teachers, administrators, legal, etc. as the only language allowed was original high Dutch, as written and spoken in Holland in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
Proposal: The addition of a new section, as it relates to the Dutch Language and the ZAR, simply the acceptable general historic view and expanding it later adding the well documented and researched struggles faced by thousands of high Dutch (not Cape Dutch) speakers to have the Dutch Language declared an official language of the British territory of the Union of South Africa. There areis academic research, respected published reference material and other resources to utilize. In fact some of the present citations may even contain some of the information already. If nobody comments in the next week or two can I assume that it is fine to proceed? Zarpboer (talk) 11:16, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

What is the text you propose and on which WP:RS sources do you base your request?Jeppiz (talk) 18:59, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
There are two issues, the first is the incorrect or inaccurate sentence, so may I remove that? - We can later replace it with citations to reflect the generally accepted academic view of language development, although it is outside the scope of this page?

The second issue is that which is directly related to this page: The struggle for the Dutch language in the ZAR, for which I may add, there does exist ample acceptable citations as citizens that became involved in the boer wars, did so among other reasons, because their religion, dutch language and culture came under threat. people fought wars and died for the right to speak, write and use the dutch language. This dutch language struggle against the Afrikaner and the British continued well into the new Union of South Africa. We can build this on the talk page for consensus, and do so over a period of some months, if this would be acceptable to other editors? - this would allow plenty time for everyone interested, to assess the citations for any acceptability disputes, to add, contribute and to resolve any POV/NPOV slanting. - Again, there is no agenda here, simply to reflect the events in Africa as they relate to the dutch language using extremely neutral citations, such as THEAL, EYBERS and acceptable general academic research, all as per WP:RS Zarpboer (talk) 08:29, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I asked two questions, would you please answer them
  • What is the text you propose?
  • Which WP:RS sources do you base your request?
Zarpboer, I know you're new here. Repeatedly, several users have tried to tell you the same thing, but I'll try again. What you think does not matter. What I think doesn't either. So whatever your opinion about Dutch in South Africa may be, it has no relevance for the article. Only what you can source is of relevance. And that does not taking a source and then providing your own interpretation of the source. This is the most basic principle of Wikipedia and it applies to everybody.Jeppiz (talk) 11:12, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Jeppiz Thank you for pointing out that what we think does not matter. I am similarly aware of WP:SYN, but when discussing improvements on the talk page, it does assist with consensus and improvement of general quality, avoids general disputes, etc. You have previously reverted a simple single sentence edit of mine, simply stating POV, whereas I have added an acceptable source for that neutral and full acceptable edit. You have not reverted that edit, instead pushing your own POV that my edit, is a fringe POV and that your edit in "Afrikaans" already covers my edit - which it patently does not, it is simply your very own POV. Anyway, your actions has reduced me to discussing my edits, on the talk page, in order to avoid edit warring and frankly I am not convinced of your neutrality. Regarding to only answering your two questions, I will formulate the text on this talk page, together with references, as per my previous post. Zarpboer (talk) 11:30, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Map is hard for colour-blind people to understand[edit]

The map of the language situation in the Dunkirk district (File:FlemishinDunkirkdistrict.PNG) is difficult for colour-blind people to understand. There are helpful tips on how to make accessible graphics on the page for Category:Articles with images not understandable by color blind users --Frans Fowler (talk) 19:35, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Good point. Sadly I don't have software that allows me to edit the current graphs. Arnoutf (talk) 20:27, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Netherlands etymology[edit]

The origin of "Nether" hints to Roman origins here, while Netherlands (toponymy) seems to attribute it relative to Burgundy. Suggest harmonisation. 88.159.78.61 (talk) 16:47, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Mutual Intelligibility between Dutch and German[edit]

The current text states "the view of mutual intelligibility between Dutch and German varies" I however do not think the first source can be used to contradict Dutch and German are not mutual intelligible. While the first source merely uses observations and doesn't quote any research, the second one is original research and is preferable. Which one is better to use Gati123 (talk) 13:29, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

  1. ^ Eybers (1917). Select_constitutional_documents_illustrating_South_African_history_1795-1910. pp. 481–482.