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Mahayoga is not Dzogchen[edit]

@Joshua Jonathan:, I don't know how you got the idea that Mahayoga is Dzogchen.VictoriaGraysonTalk 01:03, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Yo? That's a new tag for me. Anyway: Berzin uses the term in his description of the stages of practice, and Sam van Schaik mentions Atiyoga as part of Mahayoga, at the earliest developmental stage of Dzogchen:
"So when did Atiyoga become a vehicle? Moving on to the 10th century, there are a couple of texts from Dunhuang which do set out early versions of the nine vehicle system. Yet even here, though we see the beginnings of the standard distinctions between Mahāyoga, Anuyoga and Atiyoga, these three are not yet called ‘vehicles’. The texts carry on presenting Anuyoga and Atiyoga as modes of Mahāyoga practice, without any specific content of their own." [1]
I'm working on it; encyclopedic entries by Buswell & Lopez and by Germano have yet to be incorporated, and a longer text by Sam van Schaik, The Early Days of the Great Perfection. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:51, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
Forget about the "earliest developmental stage". Mahayoga is not Dzogchen.VictoriaGraysonTalk 16:21, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
Extremely incorrect, Mahayoga is withing Dzogchen [2]. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 21:05, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Traditional accounts[edit]

From what I've seen so far, most books will only tell the traditional account. It's part of the story too, isn't it? And there's plenty of the other side, the historical story. NB: the traditional accoubts are also being mentioned by the serious sources. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 20:18, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

But later traditional accounts obscure earlier traditional accounts. Its better left unsaid.VictoriaGraysonTalk 07:11, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
Good point, very good point. Let me think over it, for one or two days, okay? Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:25, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
Traditional accounts are part of the historical analysis context and often are key to proper symbology. How the tradition evolves and disperses is only obscured by view. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 21:12, 12 March 2015 (UTC)


@VictoriaGrayson: What's wrong with this info? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:54, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan: In thogal, there is no active manipulation of the subtle body like in perfection phase. Germano himself explains this in The shifting terrain of the tantric bodies of Buddhas and Buddhists from an Atiyoga perspective. So you probably conflating historical development with the actual practice. Also the phrase "extensive practices, including yogic postures, breathing practices" is really not accurate. Your cited reference of page 38 in Union of Mahamudra and Dzogchen doesn't say anything about it.VictoriaGraysonTalk 15:08, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
Okay, thanks. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 17:45, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Line in Etymology[edit]

Hello all - I have no real knowledge of this subject, so I wanted to ask if someone else would double check this line from the Etymology section at the top:

"According to the 14th Dalai Lama, the term dzogchen may be a rendering of the Sanskrit term mahāsandhi,[5] sandhi meaning "alliance, union, connection,"[web 2] "intercourse with,"[web 2] or "vagina or vulva".[web 2]"

This is seems almost definitely a crude joke, but then again I guess I don't know 100%. The web link used as a source is broken, whatever the case. (talk) 15:26, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

@VictoriaGrayson: What do you think? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:34, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
I say remove it.VictoriaGraysonTalk 16:11, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
I have boldly removed it because the speculations on its meaning are OR and not from the cite.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ogress (talkcontribs)
Well done (said the intrigant). Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 21:23, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Respects and Warning[edit]

My experiences with this tradition typically begins with warnings and respect for secrecy, as well as the emphasizing importance of living beings in pursuing it's practice This article would be wise include sourced content in this regard. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 21:23, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Lead changes[edit]

This [3] seems to be missing a refutation to appreciate the deletions intent. It can be restored. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 14:51, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Merger proposal[edit]

I propose that Maha Ati be merged into Atiyoga/Dzogchen. "Maha Ati" is merely a (recently-coined) synonym for Ati yoga / Dzogchen. (talk) 14:39, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

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