Talk:Earthcore

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Further information: Wikipedia:Ownership of articles Untitled Wikipedia's Law of Unintended Consequences If you write in Wikipedia about yourself, your group, your company, or your pet idea, once the article is created, you have no rights to control its content, and no right to delete it outside our normal channels. Content is irrevocably added with every edit, and once added will not be deleted just because the author doesn't like it any more. Any editor has the right to add or remove material to the article within the terms of our content policies. If there is anything publicly available on a topic that you would not want included in an article, it will probably find its way there eventually. More than one user has created an article only to find themselves presented in a poor light long-term by other editors. If you breach our editing policies or "edit war" in an attempt to obtain a version of your liking you are likely to have your editing access removed. In addition, if your article is found not to be worthy of inclusion in the first place, it will be deleted, as per our deletion policies. Therefore, don't create promotional or other articles lightly, especially on subjects you care about. Use of non veriable sources including Oztix (a ticketing site not a news site) Forum posts (Inthemix) are not allowed under Wikipedia rules. Fisted Rainbow (talk) 23:32, 2 December 2017 (UTC)Fisted Rainbow Cognitive Dissident (talk) 04:31, 27 July 2010 (UTC) I've noticed that someone hid the controversies section of this page. I've unhidden it. (pending discussion. I'm trying to prevent an edit war.) I have temporarily removed the section on shpongle tickets, but will repost it unless it can be proven with citations that full refunds were made. (Controversies section had been added by a jaded promoter whos event was in competition with Earthcore. The shpongle refunds have been done and most debts had been paid by posting period.'') Untrue. I wrote that section. I volunteer at many festivals, (including earthcore in 2005). I'm interested that if this user knows so much about the inner workings of the EC/danceaids organization (THAT NO ONE ELSE HAS HEARD FROM SINCE 2008..) what this user is doing editing this article. I call Conflict Of Interest. Cognitive Dissident (talk) 08:48, 26 July 2010 (UTC) Cognitive Dissident is promoter who hosts a small festival in Australia called Dragon Dreaming festival. You can see his previous edits here to prove this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Cognitive_Dissident It is these low ball tactics that some promoters use to try and make their event bigger and better in their eyesFisted Rainbow (talk) 12:32, 1 October 2010 (UTC) OK, so can you give us a source to prove that? If so, it can be included in the article. Thanks for discussing this. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 07:07, 1 October 2010 (UTC) You can not just place content on Wikipedia like saying Jesus is gay then having someone saying well Jesus prove that your not gay. Show us some sources. Please your logic here is bizarre. Once again no proof of statement no right for it to be on wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.77.29.223 (talk) 07:11, 1 October 2010 (UTC) First of all, you need to sign your posts with four tildes ~~~~. Secondly, there are several sources in the article to back those claims up; we don't take these sorts of claims lightly. Did you check the sources that are already in the article, and are they demonstrably false? You haven't given us any sources; if you can show us that your claims are sourced, bthen we can go from there. We'd be more than happy to show "your" side of the story if it's sourced, but only if it's sourced. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 07:16, 1 October 2010 (UTC) A personal blog or forum post is NOT a source. Anyone can create a blog and then use that as a source. A source is a reputable newspaper agency, a court verdict link etc etc. NO the controversies section has not been backed up with any valid of credible source so please study the dodgy source content that you claim is valid before continuing this discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.77.29.223 (talk) 07:23, 1 October 2010 (UTC) At first glance, you would appear to be correct; however, the blogs contain images of newspapers, which can be read and seem to back up the claims. Do you have anything that says something to the contrary? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 07:26, 1 October 2010 (UTC) Northern that news paper article states absolutely nothing that backs any of the controveries statement. In fact all that article states is that rubbish was left at the site at one event. Before continuing to waste my time and your time STUDY the facts before making comment. I am not going to re state the obvious here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.77.29.223 (talk) 07:39, 1 October 2010 (UTC) Secondly to the other untrues in the article EARTHCORE DID NOT GET 45000 PEOPLE at new years eve 2000. The correct figure is 12000. 3rd - Chritian Diaz was never a owner of the organisation however you continue to place him as such. Show me YOUR source to back up this claim If you can't provide a SOURCE other than a personal blog then you have no right to invent history. Didn't the Nazi's try this trick a long time ago ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.77.29.223 (talk • contribs) 07:46, 1 October 2010 I have come here as a complete outsider, with no prior knowledge of the subject and no preconceptions. At first I reverted an edit by 114.77.29.223, because it looked like vandalism. However, I have now looked into the matter in more depth, and have reached a quite different conclusion. These blogs are not reliable sources. The newspaper shown does not mention any of the allegations which were made in this article. In the absence of a reliable source the allegations must stay out of the article. JamesBWatson (talk) 07:53, 1 October 2010 (UTC) Thank you very much James. I have had a 3 hour battle against the insanity of some people on here namely Northern Lights and some of his cronies. I am absolutely disgusted that I had to defend myself and my organisation from such incredibly defamatory statements which all came from a single private blog and a few forum posts. It seems Northern Lights has a personal agenda to ensure that the lies contained in this article stayed put no matter how much reasoning and logic I placed before him. I am utterly disgusted by his actions and the fact he continued to use a personal blog (written most likely by the original person that placed defamatory comments up in the first place)as his relevant source is a black mark upon him and his sense of reality. excuse me for not knowing how to sign Spiro —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.77.29.223 (talk) 08:02, 1 October 2010 (UTC) Hi. Thanks for discussing it here. I'll be happy to take a look myself later (I have my real day job to attend to now), but can I just point out a couple of things... It's not the editors here who want to add the contentious material - all we saw was your unexplained removal of it, and in such circumstances reversion of the removal is standard practice. Now that you have decided to explain yourself and discuss things here instead, that's great. But please, try to keep it civil and friendly, stop SHOUTING, and try not to throw accusations about. All we want to do here is settle this amicably and produce a high quality, well-sourced, article - we're here to help, not fight. Comparing people to Nazis isn't going to help your cause at all - a few disagreements over your music festival really isn't in the same league as the Holocaust and the Second World War. So please, if we all just stay calm and civil, we'll get this sorted out. I can appreciate how the inclusion of false allegations would cause you some upset, but the material in question has been provisionally removed now (see below), so we've got a bit of breathing space to examine this in a calmer manner - as I say, I'll be happy to investigate myself later, and I'll try to find some sources. Best regards -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:03, 1 October 2010 (UTC) PS: To sign your posts, just add "~~~~" at the end, and the Wikipedia magic will convert that for you. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:05, 1 October 2010 (UTC) Zedebee The fact you and Northern Lights used a personal blog that contained a news article about rubbish at my event and several forum posts as a valid source to back the allegations set forth in this article is clearly wrong. The further fact that you both refused to listen to reason and logic by stating the onus was on me to disprove that contents of a private blog is so incredibly wrong it's not even funny. And last of all the fact you have wasted my time and your time for so many hours when you were wrong in the first place just says to me that maybe it's time to think things over before you shoot from the hip as Northern did. I suggest perhaps reading the section about the use of relevant sources on Wikipedia. Let me help you a little. "Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason self-published media—including but not limited to books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, personal or group blogs, Internet forum postings, and tweets—are largely not acceptable." I am incredibly saddened by the ignorant and stubborn behaviour by people who can't admit that they were wrong in the first place and instead attempt to side step this realisation by rhetorical comments like "I will research this further" when all they would be researching is private blogs and forum posts that are NOT relevant sources in the first place. Zedebee please ensure in the future that you think before you do and act after you listen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.77.29.223 (talk) 08:22, 1 October 2010 (UTC) We've all acknowledged our mistakes here, but is there anything you have that we can add to the article? As I've said, I'm not terribly familiar with the event, and I'm not sure where to look. Do you know of a review or an article somewhere? We'll all be happy to work with you, but if you are the organizer, you probably know better where to look for this than we do. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 08:37, 1 October 2010 (UTC) Hi again. Northern Lights didn't use the blog, no - whoever added the material in the first place used the blog. And yes, I'm happy to admit I made a mistake in not investigating the newspapers featured in the blog more closely (Newspapers are valid sources, though I did not examine these newspapers closely enough to see they did not support the allegations made). But come on, your approach of coming out fighting and accusing everyone of deliberately trying to defame you really didn't help - a friend of mine is fond of the saying "Never put down to malice that which can be explained by incompetence", and I always think it's best to start out by assuming honest mistakes rather than malicious intent. I'm happy to put my hand up to incompetence, but I will not accept accusations of deliberate defamation. Oh, and when I say I'll try to find some sources, I don't mean I'll go and read some blogs, what I mean is I'll try to find some *genuine* sources - I'd hoped you might welcome that. Best regards -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:39, 1 October 2010 (UTC) You refer to "people who can't admit that they were wrong in the first place". Both I and The Blade of the Northern Lights have admitted that we were wrong. Boing! said Zebedee has indicated a willingness to reconsider, and look into the matter. There is an enormous amount of vandalism on Wikipedia, and many of us put a lot of work into combatting it. Unfortunately, in order to keep up with it we have to work quickly, which sometimes results in making the wrong decision. This is particularly likely to happen in cases where an editor removes substantial amounts of content without giving any explanation, which is what you started doing. (This is not to blame you: an editor new to editing Wikipedia is understandably unlikely to realise the importance of providing explanations. I went through similar experiences myself when I first came here.) Subsequently you did give some explanation, which was good, but unfortunately the manner in which you made those explanations was not the best you might have done. I have no doubt that every word you wrote was written in good faith, but angrily accusing those you disagree with tends to give the impression that you are being unreasonable, and distracts people's attention onto that, rather than onto the logic of what you are saying. I find it is almost always more effective to be civil, even if the person you are dealing with does not deserve civility. The very first comment above from The Blade of the Northern Lights was a civil request for more information, thanking you for discussing. It is true that The Blade of the Northern Lights made a mistake, but I see no reason to doubt that it was a good faith error, but your response to it set a negative tone for the subsequent discussion. You have found accusations which you regard as defamatory about you or others you are associated with, and it is perfectly understandable that you have been annoyed and reacted angrily. However, I hope you can now see that, whatever may have been the motivation of the person who originally added the claims, none of those involved today was acting maliciously. I hope that the matter is now resolved, and we will not see questionable unsourced material added to the article again. However, if there still are problems it will be easier to resolve them if we all try to be calm and civil. JamesBWatson (talk) 09:05, 1 October 2010 (UTC) Northern Lights - I have plenty of historical information to provide for this article starting with a detailed list of all the acts brought out. Dozens of great photos, articles from news papers, photos and a historical background of the event itself. I will put all this up in due course. I am thankful that have admitted that you were both wrong but it took the intervention of someone above you to lock the edit to achieve this realisation not your own mind set. The fact is you both continued to re edit the post using a Blog to back your actions (even though you were both told Blog entries are not valid sources) seems to me that if you had spent the same amount of time re editing this article that you could have used listening to logical reasoning (and know the Wikipedia source rules) none of this would have happened in the first place. Attempting to place the stream of discussion towards my comments and reactions to your actions is a tad pointless and irrelevant and a weak attempt to blur the real issue at hand. I do think it would be good for you to have a long hard think about your over zealous behaviour in regards to re editing this article dozens of times and try not to make the same mistake in the future. Doing so will only reduce the quality of Wikipedia in general and I can safely say that nobody wants that. Perhaps doing a course in negotiation and reasoning skills development will help you both not create such a scenario in the future ? I do feel that you both also attempted to bully this whole situation and have it your way no matter how wrong you both were. I am not sure how old you both are but you have acted much like my niece acts when she wants her way with a toy in a department store. Once again the issue at hand here is the stubborness and refusal to listen to logic not studying my reaction (and comments) to your actions. No amount of rhetoric from you Mr Watson, Blade or Zee about me and my comments is of any relevance to the facts at hand. Furthermore I am stunned that we have three individuals on here that failed in the first place to follow the clear and concise rules of sourcing on Wikipedia yet a novice comes along and says it as it should be and is backed by someone who thankfully had the power to stop your ethically incorrect re editing of this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.77.29.223 (talk) 09:15, 1 October 2010 (UTC) And to quote Blade even after he was told several times that a blog can't be used as a source and also that the newspaper article did not back the claims. "Secondly, there are several sources in the article to back those claims up;" I rest my case. Blade stated that the sources backed the claims and that there were several of them. This statement was a complete fabrication a lie and can not be considered a honest mistake. There was in actual fact NO relevant source let alone sources like Blade claimed. Even when I clearly stated above that a blog is a not a relevant source Blade and and Zee continued to re edit the post citing that there were relevant sources and that I had to prove otherwise with a relevant source. "Did you check the sources that are already in the article, and are they demonstrably false? You haven't given us any sources; if you can show us that your claims are sourced" No Blade it was you that didn't check the source and no Blade it's not for me to provide a source to refute a invalid source. It was no wonder that I reacted the way I did and I must say I am proud of the fact that I had the patience and control to not lose the plot completely over this irrational display of thinking on Blade's behalf. lol —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.77.29.223 (talk) 09:38, 1 October 2010 (UTC) And to finalise my point. The original poster of the section in question Cognitive Disident is a promoter from Australia. Had you looked at his previous contributions here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Cognitive_Dissident you would have noticed the page he created back in July - Dragon Dreaming Festival is based in Australia. This really does say it all and reinforces the first statement put forth months ago above. I rest my case and trust no further altercations like occur in the future.Fisted Rainbow (talk) 12:41, 1 October 2010 (UTC) THIS IS FALSE. I VOLUNTEER AT ALL THE TRANCE FESTIVALS I GO TO. please stop misrepresenting my interest in this case. yes, i edit and create articles about dance partys. Being thats where my interest is. you'll will notice that I never actually posted the DDF article, and instead inquired about the potential conflict of interest that comes from being aquainted to the promoters of said party. Fisted Rainbow has a SELF-ADMITTED conflict of interest yet continues to edit and revert the article. This person has been know to constantly use legal threats to remove negative comments and documents from public view, leaving blogs and forum posts some of the only evidence available of the underhanded tactics of this person. SOURCES: http://www.theage.com.au/national/10-overdose-at-dance-party-mainly-on-ghb-20090102-78sy.html (SEE 2ND HALF OF ARTICLE) ABSTRACT: "Meanwhile, Victoria's consumer watchdog has warned dance party fans about a festival company that refused to refund tickets sold to a cancelled event due to be held in Melbourne in March. Dance Aid Australia sold tickets for up to $95 to see trance music group Sphongle in Sydney on March 8 and at the Docklands in Melbourne on Labour Day. The event was cancelled on December 10 last year and buyers were told they would not be getting their money back. Twenty ticket-holders have complained to Consumer Affairs Victoria, which has promised to take action if the company is found to have breached the Fair Trading Act. Angry fans in messages posted on internet blogs said they had been sent emails from Dance Aid telling them the company had been forced to stop trading after receiving legal advice. Consumer Affairs Victoria director Dr Claire Noone said anyone who had bought tickets with credit cards should contact their banks to seek a refund." Cognitive Dissident 121.127.193.86 (talk) 01:10, 6 December 2010 (UTC) Page protection I've added full protection for three days to this after a request for semi-protection on RfPP. The IP was removing contentious material that was sourced to blogs, which I've removed for now. The editors who want to add this will have to find reliable secondary sources, per WP:SOURCES. If the dispute's resolved sooner than three days, let me know and I'll unprotect. Cheers, SlimVirgin talk|contribs 07:46, 1 October 2010 (UTC) Thank you very much It seems Northern Lights and some other think that a relevant source is a personal blog and forum posts. The rules of Wikipedia clearly state Self-published sources (online and paper) Policy shortcuts: WP:SELFPUBLISH WP:SPS WP:TWITTER WP:V#SELF Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason self-published media—including but not limited to books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, personal or group blogs, Internet forum postings, and tweets—are largely not acceptable. Self-published material may in some circumstances be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. Caution should be exercised when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so. Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer: see WP:BLP#Reliable sources. I rest my case. I am glad logic has prevailed here and not the madness of Northern Lights and his cronies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.77.29.223 (talk) 07:53, 1 October 2010 (UTC) (ec):I'm not terribly familiar with the event, being American myself; I've heard of it, but not a huge amount about it. I ran a search for the 12000 attendance figure; I couldn't find anything on a cursory search, but you probably have figures I don't know about. Can you show them somewhere? I shot from the hip, and now I realize that I was wrong; I was going on the article history, and I screwed up. I'm going offline now, so I just want to apologize and say that what happened to JamesBWatson is essentially what happened to me. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 08:01, 1 October 2010 (UTC) I've unprotected per Boing's request on my talk page. Glad things got sorted out so quickly. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 03:10, 2 October 2010 (UTC) Controversies section Hi, I'm the user "cognitive dissident", i wikified this article a few months ago for phrasing, spelling, extraneous info, etc, and also added a controversies section. this section has been hidden due to "poorly sourced references" apparently. I'm curious if the new references i put up are good enough for the section to be reposted? i'm also curious why this article was allowed to be edited freely by one of the people the article was about? i had assumed that would have fallen under BLP and COI issues?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.127.208.34 (talk) 06:18, 4 January 2011 (UTC) For those of you not privy to the discussion between this IP and myself, I'll post what he had said before on another IP: This person has been know to constantly use legal threats to remove negative comments and documents from public view, leaving blogs and forum posts some of the only evidence available of the underhanded tactics of this person. http://www.theage.com.au/national/10-overdose-at-dance-party-mainly-on-ghb-20090102-78sy.html (SEE 2ND HALF OF ARTICLE) ABSTRACT: "Meanwhile, Victoria's consumer watchdog has warned dance party fans about a festival company that refused to refund tickets sold to a cancelled event due to be held in Melbourne in March. Dance Aid Australia sold tickets for up to $95 to see trance music group Sphongle in Sydney on March 8 and at the Docklands in Melbourne on Labour Day. The event was cancelled on December 10 last year and buyers were told they would not be getting their money back. Twenty ticket-holders have complained to Consumer Affairs Victoria, which has promised to take action if the company is found to have breached the Fair Trading Act. Angry fans in messages posted on internet blogs said they had been sent emails from Dance Aid telling them the company had been forced to stop trading after receiving legal advice. Consumer Affairs Victoria director Dr Claire Noone said anyone who had bought tickets with credit cards should contact their banks to seek a refund." Cognitive Dissident 121.127.193.86 (talk) 01:10, 6 December 2010 (UTC) I'll wait until others talk to express my opinion; in the meantime, I'll leave this here for discussion. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:03, 4 January 2011 (UTC) Please note; I'm not endorsing Cognitive Dissident here, just posting what he said. I'm just the messenger here. Here we go again. Yawn........ For starters The Sphongle tour had nothing whatsoever to do with the Earthcore festival of which the article isn't written about so therefore Cognitive's arguement trying to include something that has no relevance to the Earthcore festival is a no brainer and not even worth discussing any further. The tour (NOT EARTHCORE) he is discussing tour was cancelled and refunds were made for that "concert" and no legal action happened by any parties. If cognitive disident can provide a valid link that shows that 1. Sphongle (live) was performing at a Earthcore festival in 2008 or 2009 then by all means please show all of us. 1.5 That the article above (via the age) is not written about Earthcore in anyway. The drug overdoses DID not happen at Earthcore and therefore have no bearing on Earthcore. 2. Show any documented legal action that was taken (ie court order etc etc) in the regards to the 20 people who complained at the time and who had already been refunded anyway for that "concert" which was a indoor 6 hour show and had nothing to do with Earthcore the event in the first place. 20 people out 0f 3000 + people who purchased tickets isn't such a large number especially considering the refund process took 30 days to complete. If we were such evil men as Coginitive claims how come the other 2980 + people didn't complain ? Please this is actually rather pathetic and I am finding myself humouring a rival promoter who clearly has too much time on his hands trying to invent scenarios in his head that are not reality based. 2. The link of a private booking agency is their version of events and not a valid source of material. Incidentally that company settled with us for cancelling the tour in the first place and all parties have since then (2 years ago) moved on. In fact we are in the process of touring some of their acts this year and 2012. 3. Once again Cognitive is trying to use a forum link as "newsworthy". The inthemix forums and other blog (lucid..) are not valid news sources which I claim Cognitive disident was the main creator of in the first place. As I have previously stated Cognitive Dissident is a rival promoter who is trying to create a smear campiagn against me personally and the Earthcore brand. At no point do you see the name "Earthcore" mentioned in any of his links except the forum(s) blogs invalid links which is irrelevant in the first place. You can also see Cognitive's unbalanced mental state via his previous rants in this section which were removed due to the personal attacks upon me. In fact the company that ran Earthcore was called Earthcore Events not any other name. If Cognitive Disident feels so strongly about telling his version of events and his incredible claims that he worked for "Earthcore" then by all means what is his full name ? I assure you that he never worked or volunteered in the first place for me and is hiding behind a fake name to protect his motives as a rival promoter. If Julian Assange has no issues announcing his name then why can't Cognitive do the same ? lol I have toured over 1000 + international and local musicians and entertained literally hundred's of thousands of people over a 20 year period and find it hilarious that Mr ANONYMOUS can make claims such as his. I would not have lasted 20 years in the entertainment industry toured thousands upon thousands of acts and had no issues other than the usual ones involved in the entertainment industry if I was some evil person as he claims and never paid anyone. I challenge Cognitive to prove that I ripped off ANY OF THE INTERNATIONAL ARTISTS BELOW WHO ALL HAVE PLAYED AT EARTHCORE 1200 Micrograms, Vibrasphere, Dj Spooky, Adam Jay, Alex Kidd, Alex Patterson, Gus Till, Ken Ishii, Ubar Tmar, Antix, Aphex Twin Astrix Atmos Atom Heart Dj Krush Bamboo Forest Mark Allen Thomas Heckmann Bigwigs Phil Hartnoll (Orbital)Perry Farrell Brett Johnson Triptych Brumbling Loons Nissimyani Martin Solveig Charlie Hall Ott Chicago Chris Su Sub 6 Batta Mathew Jonson Space Tribe Fred E Fresh Dj Food Dark Soho Kox Box Blank and Jones Reefer Decree S.I Futures Matt Boom Dave Tarrida Deedrah Andreas Kramer Schwarze Puppen Trance Generators Deviant Species Talamasca Dj Pena Dj Spencer DJ Cloud DJ Dick Trevor DJ Emok Dj Ketan DJ Lucas DJ SS & Warren G Dj Tomek DJ Wag a.k.a. Yakooza DJ Weyer DJ Hell Richard Bartz Kopfuss Resonater Eat Static Gill Morris Electric Universe Emok Eskimo Fatali Freaky Chakra FREq Freq Nasty Future Prophecies Gaudi GMS Hallucinogen Ilogik, Infected Mushroom, James Holden, James Monro Jammin Unit, John 00 Fleming, Julian Liberator, Juno Reactor, Kevin Saunderson, Kino Oko Lab 4 LarozLogic Bomb Loopus in Fabula Mark EG Martin Y.O.M.C Roth Mekon Michael Dog Michael Mayer, Michele Adamson Mo-Shic, Myagi, Oforia, Organic Noise, Ouija, P.Q.M, Peter Didjital, Phony Orphants, Pitch Black, Planet Ben, Praecox, Prometheus, Propellerheads, Protoculture, Raja Ram, Ralph Lawson, Ryo, Reloop, Regurgitator, Richard Ahlberg, Robert Leiner, S.U.N Project, Salmonella Dub, Scot Project, Sesto Sento, Shakta, Shiva Space Technology, Shulman, Sirius Isness, Skazi, Slum, Son Kite, Steve Bedlam, System 7, Ta-Ka, The Orb, Ticon, Tim Healy, Tipper, Tobias Schmidt, Tokage, Tristan, Tromesa,Tsuyoshi Suzuki, Uni, Wizzy Noise, X Dream, Xavier Morel, YK, Younger Brother What really is pathetic is the fact Earthcore is no more anyway in the first place and stopped over 2 years ago. Cognitive is flogging a dead horse and getting a mental erection from it I am assuming or as I said is a rival promoter afraid that we will be re entering the market which unfortunately for him we already have and will be putting on events in his region (his market) very very shortly. Could someone with some editing skills please include the artists I have listed above be added the artists who have played at Earthcore please ? With thanks and happy new year everyone !! Spiro Boursine (See Cognitive how easy it is to put your full name behind what one says ? ):-) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fisted Rainbow (talk • contribs) 04:11, 8 January 2011 (UTC) I never claimed to work for earthcore except as a volunteer. I never added anthing to the article except the controversies section either. I wikified the (apparently false) information that was there. I had little more than a passing interest in objectiveness when i originally fixed the article, however I do have issues with people attempting to obscure history. I'm considering nominating this article for deletion perhaps? or at least have Mr Boursines personal interest in the subject being presented in an unobjective light taken into account by other editors. Anyway, i'd like to see other comments? 121.127.208.34 (talk) 15:15, 8 January 2011 (UTC) Mr Anonymous I find it rather amusing that you continue to hide your identity yet make claims that you volunteered at my events. Due to the fact you continue to not put your actual name to your claims your words mean absolutely nothing to me yet your motives present themselves as clear as a blue sky. You are a rival promoter who has vainly attempted to personally discredit me and my old festival. If you really really feel like flogging the dead horse then why not start or add a Shpongle tour wiki subject and say that we(I) failed to get them over to australia or whatever rocks your boat and makes you happy. (Removed personal contact details due to recent harassment by Cognitive Disident 60.242.37.151 (talk) 04:48, 16 March 2011 (UTC) I have nothing to hide nor am I what you think I am. Cheers Spiz. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fisted Rainbow (talk • contribs) 03:42, 10 January 2011 (UTC) seriously, is anyone else watching this?? why is this editor addressing and attacking me personally?? I apologise in advance for the direct nature of my response. Mr Boursine: I have no interest in "contacting you personally". why would I? I have no interest in you or your organisation. you continually trot out the line "rival promoter" yet have no evidence for it. A slanderous approach and against the rules of wikipedia. I don't understand why you are allowed to edit the wiki page of an organisation that you started, thats conflict of interest, and, again, against the ethics of wikipedia. I also draw exception to your intimation that i have added falicious information to this article. all i did was wikify an article that was (poorly) written in the form of a self-aggrandising personally essay. any information in the body of the article that you claim to be false has not been removed in the several months that this argument has dragged out. you are welcome to add or modify information, as you said you would, but it hasn't been forthcoming; leading me to believe that your main interest is not historical record but protection of your (as you so strongly point out, now defunct) "brand name". Also, do yoiu think I would be stupid enough to name myself when you have shown your passion for threatening litigation time and again? This is a public encyclopedia, to be edited by the public, for the public. welcome to the 21st century. (By the way: sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming "rival promoter!" is not an argument, its a tantrum.) I'm curious why you have edited the rainbow serpent page when you have such a strong moral veiw on "rival promoters" editing wiki articles? Awaiting your forthcoming vitriole with baited breath :) Cognitive Dissident (talk) 11:22, 8 February 2011 (UTC) Incidentally I haven't written anything on or about the Earthcore page since it's inception. You are clearly a waste of my time. You failed in trying to create a warped and self serving delusional historical record and now you are clutching at short straws that will get you nowhere. I bid you all the best on your next troll adventure Mr rival promoter. hmm, i guess we'll have to see about that, won't we mate ;) Cognitive Dissident (talk) 11:19, 8 February 2011 (UTC) lol. A threat. Your true colours come out. Clown............ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.77.26.57 (talk) 08:15, 11 February 2011 (UTC) how on earth is that a threat?? Cognitive Dissident (talk) 18:11, 12 February 2011 (UTC) I have deleted Cognitive's Dissident's latest personal attack. what personal attack?? You continue to lie through your teeth yet take the liberty of deleting my posts?? I'll be here forever buddy, I'm doing nothing but trying to get the truth about earthcores buisness practices recorded and wikify your self-promotional article, in the meantime im having this retarded argument with you, which is kinda... retarded. Anyway thanks for the laughs spiz, see ya tomorrow! (please sign your posts in future) Cognitive Dissident (talk) 02:34, 18 February 2011 (UTC) BTW I know who you are now. lol. Classic. You gave yourself away and you don't even know how. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fisted Rainbow (talk • contribs) 23:33, 17 February 2011 Without getting into the issues being raised here: Fisted Rainbow...do not delete or refactor another user's posts, and if you believe another user has a conflict of interest, raise the issue at WP:COIN. Everyone, do not make personal attacks against other users. Such behaviour is not acceptable here. — Huntster (t @ c) 12:13, 18 February 2011 (UTC) and the circus continues. I have had constant personal attacks, veiled threats, defamatory personal blog/fourm link posts told I am liar, am on drugs, am a cunt, a dog you name it and then you come along and tell me to raise the issue of conflict of interest and not refactor. lol. Just have a look at the psychotic personal attacks Cognitive has displayed in the removed posts in the discussion thread let alone his delusional fantasy world display on the article itself. Such behaviour not acceptable here you say ? If that's why has this stalker been allowed to continue on his one man mission to continue in "the not accepted" way for all this time and nothing has been done about it ? I didn't even write or add anything to the original article in the first place. lol. This is actually rather pathetic and by me posting on here only feeds this weirdo more energy. I'm signing off for good you creep. Best of luck talking to yourself because quite clearly nobody gives a flying stuff what you say and you are completely powerless to modify the main article anyway.60.242.37.151 (talk) 04:41, 16 March 2011 (UTC) AFD? I wonder if a procedural AFD process would sort out some of the issues here? I am not familiar with the strength of The Age as a sources, but that aside, The first thing that came to mind upon reading this article was: WP:NOTE? David Able 17:15, 18 February 2011 (UTC) Why should the article be deleted just because of one person's personal vendetta however I don't mind either way if it stops this stalker from further harassment? I know this person and I can safely say his intense interest in me is of a mentally disturbing nature. Due to personal safety issues for me and my family I have taken preventative action against him. This has gone on for far too long and is completely unacceptable. I don't mind healthy debate and in fact I enjoy it but when it gets personal it's clearly not on. In reference to The Age article yes it is a valid source however the contents of the article have nothing to do with the topic here which is "Earthcore Festival" As I pointed out to my mentally disturbed "friend" he is quite welcome to start a new article about the cancelled tour mentioned in the article if he so pleases if that will satisfy his deranged obsession with me and leave me alone. Either way enough is enough. I did not write the Earthcore article nor have I added to it in anyway but I am not going to tolerate some freak's futile attempt to warp the truth and try and defame and personally discredit me using personal blog posts, personal forum posts and unrelated articles. All of which go against the grain of Wikipedia's policies as clearly outlined in the body of text above by various long standing and respected Wikipedia editors and contributors. :)

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Controversy Section - Bands not being paid and pulling out of Earthcore

Whle the Earthcore organisation claims the 2017 event didn't go ahead in most states because of a "smear campaign", there is ABUNDANT information, from a number of artists claiming in fact they dropped out of Earthocre because they weren't paid, or even given air tickets to get to Australia. The articles explain that this in turn meant the events couldn't go ahead. According to these articles, this is the actual reason Earthcore wasn't run in most states. The Herald Sun article, for instance, mentions 32 artists, and even lists all their names. So there are two points of view here, one from Earthcore, and one from the participating DJs/artists. There is consistent removal of the artists POV content in this section, by an editor who could be associated with Earthcore. I have reinserted this information for WP:Bal/NPOV issues. There are numerous articles supporting the statements from the bands saying they weren't paid, including:

• Cahill, Mikey "Earthcore Loses Many Acts on bill as artists claim promoter has not paid for flights or appearance fees" Herald Sun November 24, 2017 http://www.heraldsun.com.au/lifestyle/melbourne/earthcore-loses-many-acts-on-bill-as-artists-claim-promoter-has-not-paid-for-flights-or-appearance-fees/news-story/99796582af3f4c02ddfd2fd484ba36ba
• "Earthcore company to be wound up after festival cancellations" http://www.heraldsun.com.au/lifestyle/melbourne/earthcore-company-to-be-wound-up-after-festival-cancellations/news-story/f1911ba86de245cc382f524118f0b34b
• "Perths earthcore in the park music festival cancelled at the last minute over lack of ticket sales" https://thewest.com.au/entertainment/music/perths-earthcore-in-the-park-music-festival-cancelled-at-the-last-minute-over-lack-of-ticket-sales-ng-b88673005z
• "Earthcore headliner pulls out of festival they didnt even book a flight" http://themusic.com.au/news/all/2017/11/21/earthcore-headliner-pulls-out-of-festival-they-didnt-even-book-a-flight/
• "Earthcore festival cancelled many djs say werent paid" http://www.onlytechno.net/earthcore-festival-cancelled-many-djs-say-werent-paid/
• "Earthcore headliners accuse promoter of not paying them amid cancellations news" http://mixmag.net/read/earthcore-headliners-accuse-promoter-of-not-paying-them-amid-cancellations-news
• "Headlining Act abandoned Earthcore" http://inthemix.junkee.com/headlining-act-abandoned-earthcore/156492
• "earthcore-music-festival-failed-payments" https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2017/11/21/earthcore-music-festival-failed-payments/
• "More Acts Pull out of Earthcore questions raised about sydney event the music" Oztix News https://www.oztix.com.au/news/archive/2017/11/23/more-acts-pull-out-of-earthcore-questions-raised-about-sydney-event-themusic/
• "Caversham Earthcore Ticketholders Urged To Contact banks for refunds after organisers pull pin on event" https://www.communitynews.com.au/eastern-reporter/news/caversham-earthcore-ticketholders-urged-to-contact-banks-for-refunds-after-organisers-pull-pin-on-event/
• "Office-of-fair-trading-media-alert-cancelled-music-festival" https://www.qld.gov.au/law/laws-regulated-industries-and-accountability/queensland-laws-and-regulations/fair-trading-services-programs-and-resources/fair-trading-latest-news/media-statements/office-of-fair-trading-media-alert-cancelled-music-festival

Please do not remove this material from the controversy section, before discussing here. Also, just by the by, I have no connection to Earthcore or any other rival organisation. Just a Wikipedia editor who normally edits history articles! Deathlibrarian (talk) 07:25, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Death Libraian

Why in your list of articles above there is not a single article you have listed that provides balance like the following one http://musicfeeds.com.au/news/earthcore-festival-accuses-artists-keeping-money-refusing-play/ amongst numerous other articles that provide balance.

You claim you are trying to be balanced yet here we are with you only posting links to one side of a story. Its clear you have a conflict of interest as you are obsessed about this topic and refusing to allow the article to have balance.

You are also using "facebook" posts and other non credible stories as "proof". At no stage can you provide a factual story that lists your claim that 32 acts did not perform let alone 32 acts not performing and not being paid. Get your facts right and show balance or admit you have a alterior motive to skwere article in one perspective. Cease starting a edit war and discuss here so we can work on a balanced article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fisted Rainbow (talk • contribs) 12:53, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Request for inclusion of information about Earthcore claiming artists were paid and then didn't show up

User Fisted Rainbow has asked for the inclusion of this:

Earthcore countered that many artists were paid and kept the fees and did not perform. http://musicfeeds.com.au/news/earthcore-festival-accuses-artists-keeping-money-refusing-play/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fisted Rainbow (talk • contribs) 02:44, 6 January 2018 (UTC)"

It states that Earthcore alleges that some of the artists kept the money. I will add this in for the Earthcore side of the controversy. He can't add it himself as he is the promoter of the event, and has been asked not to edit the page on behalf of the admins for WP:COI reasons, which I brought to their attention. Deathlibrarian (talk) 02:54, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

'If this is a reliable source, of which I am not certain, the article not only presents Earthcore's claims about artists keeping money they were given even after they pulled out of the festival, but statements from the artists saying that they weren't paid in time, which they claim is the reason they pulled out. So, each side is blaming the other, and nothing in the article is definitive, as the reporter basically did no independent investigation. Having a little bit of knowledge about the music industry, from my experience (which is not dispositive) it is much more likely that the bands' stories are correct, and they weren't paid on time -- bands, after all, want to play, it's their reason for existence, and are unlikely to be pulling out of gigs as some sort of monetary con. Promoters, on the other hand, are pretty much eternally short of funds, and are more likely to try to skate by and hope that everything will work out in the end - and if a couple of bands pull out, well a festival books many bands, so, them's the breaks.

As I said, my personal knowledge is not controlling here, but it does lead to my opinion that if the article is included, it should only be with both sides given equal weight. The article is not a counterweight to other articles which report negative things about the festival. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:51, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I would tend to agree, its not in the personal interest of bands that are travelling from overseas to a festival to cancel at the last minute. They would have given up other jobs for that weekend, probably worth thousands, so it means they are without payment and don't have time to organise replacement work. I have included the counter, but may be will include a re-wording of it. Deathlibrarian (talk) 05:28, 7 January 2018 (UTC)