Talk:Economy of the United Kingdom

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Substantial Revisions Required[edit]

This article is in need of substantial revision. The quality of the information is often poor, or severely out of date. Furthermore, the range of information presented is far too narrow. Greater information could be provided for example on Employment within the Economy of the UK etc. We need some people to agree to develop this page and the information on it. AdamFouracre (talk) 18:36, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

I would note for the sake of completeness that I have been updating the information listed under "Statistics" in the right hand column, and have been providing citations. AdamFouracre (talk) 18:37, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Saved for future reference: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_286243.pdf AdamFouracre (talk) 15:49, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

France[edit]

All I can say is so what? The fact remains that the UK economy has outperformed the French economy since the early 1990's, in terms of mean GDP growth and unemployment. Besides, if it is true that France is now a larger economy than the UK, then your linked article even attributes it ramifications from exchange rates, and not in consequence from a lower mean rate of economic growth. If the French economy was in such a rosy state, then why is President Sarkozy attempting to privatise state industry and and make France more akin to an Anglo-Saxon capitalist model? He, and practically all others in the French ruling class, know that something has to give if France is to be economically competitive in the future. So yes, have an orgasm at the fact that France (according to your link) has a larger economy, but at the moment one would say that the UK has better prospects, due to our less regulated economic model. Whether Sarkozy and co. can do the same remains to be seen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lapafrax (talkcontribs) 19:50, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

:: Lapafrax your comments are all based on assumptions. It could be that the French governments changes are all in response to the entire world being in an economic downturn as a result of the attacks on the US and the following war(s). Either way your arguement is based on emotion not facts.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.35.101.76 (talkcontribs) 14:34, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

i agree with lapafrax. check GDP growth statistics on any reputable website, whether the OECD, UN, IMF or what have you. It is fact that Sarkozy in 2007 election ran on a manifesto of changing the French macroeconomic model. It is fact that since the start of the current decade, the UK has experienced a higher average rate of economic growth. it is fact that the UK has also experienced lower unemployment in the period. To say these points are assumptions makes little sense. And what global economic downturn was there in 2007, at the time Sarkozy became president? Few economists at that time could predict the current recession.

And a global downturn as a result of 9/11? What? I'd imagine since 9/11, the Eurozone has been the worst performing region in the first world. Why then didn't Canada, Australia, Singapore, Hong Kong, the UK, New Zealand and South Korea all experience stagnant economic growth and high unemployment since 2001? http://www.journal-online.co.uk/article/2830-sarkozys-french-revolution - see this link. Sarkozy was often seen as the French Margaret Thatcher, since in the UK Thatcher's remit as PM was to reform the UK economy in order to halt a relative economic decline.

The problem is that Wikipedia GDP data comes from the IMF and World Bank (see List of countries by GDP (nominal)), so it's not up to Wikipedia to update the data but rather the IMF and World Bank. Knowing that France has overtaken the UK isn't particularly useful on its own because we'd need to know the whole list to update it. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:04, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

The IMF and CIA don't agree with the Financial Times. I know who I'd trust. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Colliver55 (talkcontribs) 15:11, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I think i'll never understand this british obsession of always comparing UK with France whatever the matter. aren't the hundred years' war and napoleonic era over ? Last time I was in France, they did care of UK as their first diaper. Baby Bobby —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.9.24.105 (talk) 19:56, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

It's nothing to do with a British obsession. It just so happens that the UK and France have similar GDP figures, and so their international ranking is subject to considerable debate. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:37, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

"Why then didn't the UK experience stagnant economic growth and high unemployment since 2001" The answer to this can be found here http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/government_expenditure.html#ukgs302 The UK gov increased public spending from £1021 billion in 2001 to £1451 billion in 2010 go on read that again, thats an increase of £431 billion in 9 years. Increasing gov supported employment and supporting a SHRINKING economy. The gov also removed the BOE's responsibility of controlling inflation and relaxed banking regulations in the UK, which encouraged bad lending practices to support the UK. Increased dept to unsustainable levels and now we have to pay the price. Basically the UK differed payment until the bailiffs came knocking. The labour Gov also sold 400 tonnes of the UK's gold reserves from 1999 to 2002 http://www.bullionmark.com/bullion-market-tools-a-resources/blog-and-articles/2010/3/00/52-UK-gold-sale--was-it-a-bank-bailout?.html The UK has very few substantial assets left and considerable debt. Scotlands oil wont last forever.

2009 France GDP $2.666 Trillion 2009 UK GDP $2.224 Trillion

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/fr.html https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/uk.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.79.181.191 (talk) 02:17, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but France has a much larger debt, when you put it all into context the UK comes out on top.Twobells (talk) 19:15, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Actually that reminds me, I want to add a warning here:

If you browse through many British & English historical and statistical pages on Wikipedia you will find that French editors have been there trying to give undue weight to their country, some even going as far as making up allegations about British historical figures creating so-called 'sexual preferences' sections and suggesting without any evidence a predilection towards homosexuality all completely unchallenged until you find them, they try to be clever by inserting 'citation needed' and of course no citation exists but the student doesn't know that so be on the constant lookout for certain editors.Twobells (talk) 19:15, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

--> all of that might be true, or just 'talk'; to me, from belgium, it seems all based on chauvinist feelings on either side of the channel; one example being the myth of the socalled 'anglosaxon capitalsit model'; if there is some-one that can explain in simple terms what that diffrence consists of, then I retract my words, but basicly, the RF and the UK are simply capitalist states with some social democratic characteristics of a welfare states... France has not been socialist for decades; and since WWII conservative (gaullist) ideology has dominated french politics, as it has also troughout most of the 19th century (despite the revolutionary elan of paris glowing like a firefly in the night)

yeah, there were riots in paris, yeah there were riots in london; you see, all the same inequality, failing economic policy and economic emancipation of young unemployed and the same bullshitting politicians wanting to clean it up (but putting it under the carpet)... Both paris and london are financial centres with global attraction and radiance... both france and britain are economies of similar size and population, very similar growth, very similar crises; how can anybody then say one model is so much more successfull when diffrence is basicly 'marginal'? resorting to the ad hominem: what idiot would analyse into the absurd these minute "diffrences" in order to obtain recognition of some vague assumed economic "ideology"???

As to the 'anglosaxon model'; once I went to the US; and thought the US could join the EU being rich enough and so similar in values and economic devellopment (though with a bit more space)... or inversely, the EU states could join the US... one could just as easily speak of the Belgian capitalist model; or the Euro-American model etc... its all the same to me: these parts of the world share the goal of trying to establish free trade, open markets and to create wealth as a basis of a mass consumerist welfare democracy (or in plural) alongside very similar methods (mostly still somehow imbedded in the old keynsian theory -as long as we use terms like BNP defined as they are today, its keynsian-, which is why all of our debts keep rising)...

I don't know why Brittish folks and French folks are baited so easily in some dumb nationalist or chauvinistic rethoric... probably because the're less intelligent compared to the others...

British have a higher IQ than the French; less than the Italians, higher than the Americans and the Israelis. Is this relevant? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.174.239.140 (talk) 17:15, 23 June 2012 (UTC) 15:15, 21 February 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Monoclemask (talkcontribs)


Joining the Euro.[edit]

The text reads:

Until relatively recently there was debate over whether or not the UK should abolish its currency Pound Sterling and join the Euro.

I would dispute this. Euro membership is still on the cards. The Liberal Democrats favour the idea (however they have suspended their Euro-policy as a concession to the coalition), there are some in the Labour and Conservative parties who also favour it. Many in the UK favour the idea. While I can't see it happening any time too soon, once the sovereign debt crisis has been calmed down and tougher rules on treasuries have been established then doubtlessly the debate will resurge, and in time Britain will probably adopt the single currency.

I don't think it does the issue justice to make out as if it was a past-debate like the reform of the corn laws.

If no one objects I shall change it to something that reflects the reality a little better.

Regards,

Mtaylor848 (talk) 13:07, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

"Many in the UK favour the idea." - that would depend on your definition of many. It is very clear a large majority of people in the United Kingdom oppose joining the euro, even many liberal democrats do not want to join. As a big supporter of the European Union, id never want us to join the euro which is so deeply flawed and always has been.
Britain will not adopt the Euro for decades, mentioning that the government has no intention of joining the euro over the next 5 years is valid and relevant. A mention of the positions the main 3 parties take is also justified, however whilst the lib dems are pro EU they aint desperate for joining the euro and would hold a referendum, a referendum that polls show they would lose badly. Public opposition to it should also be mentioned.
I do agree with you though that the wording should be changed. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:22, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
David Cameron has stated categorically to the House of Commons that the UK will not enter the Euro in the current Parliament, so that seems to leave little room for doubt; the sentence therefore seems fairly accurate, although of course it could be further explained. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 15:25, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
This is one of those debates which will never be settled and it would be wrong to say the debate is over. There is pretty large agreement that this would not be a good time to join, but give it five years for the current financial crisis to settle down, and who knows. Official statements by political leaders are also notoriously unreliable. Sandpiper (talk) 20:49, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

UK gross wage averaged...[edit]

€4,108 or $5,546... what was that in legal UK tender then... and is that before or after conversion into Sterling? MrZoolook (talk) 22:47, 6 June 2012 (UTC)


I have updated these figures to 2011 (from 2006) and calculated them based on average market prices for the respective currencies during the 2011 year using data provided by the ONS. Thus the figures are calculated on the basis of £1 = €1.151, and £1 = $1.605.
Average gross salary: £2,183 / €2,510 / $3,493.32 (2011) - http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_241497.pdf
Average net salary: £1,336 / €1,536 / $2,137.60 (2011) - http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_307651.pdf
AdamFouracre (talk) 11:03, 10 July 2013 (UTC).

Hatnote[edit]

Apologies for the delay in starting this discussion. I think a hatnote along the lines of

"UK plc" and "GB plc" redirect here. For public limited companies in the United Kingdom, see United Kingdom company law.

belongs in the article because "UK plc" and "GB plc" each have two meanings: the UK economy (determined at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2012 June 25#UK plc to be the primary meaning) and public limited companies in the UK (to which they redirected for three years; for example, one might say "the UK plc Tesco..."). As such, though the consensus at the RfD was to retarget them here, there remains a significant chance that a reader searching for them might be looking for something along the lines of United Kingdom company law. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 16:15, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for starting a discussion. "GB plc" I have never heard of and think should simply be discounted.
"UK plc" is a phrase used sometimes by the UK media to refer to the British economy, but in the narrow sense of the present day economy, and generally just as regards the private sector (which is just over half the economy). It is therefore not synonymous with the topic of this article, although it is closely related.
I see very little way in which this article could ever be confused for one on United Kingdom company law. However I do accept that some people may well search UK plc looking for the article Public limited company.
In my view the best solution here would be to make "UK plc" into either a short article or a disambiguation page which explains the meaning of the term and links to both this article and Public limited company. Rangoon11 (talk) 18:09, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
"GB plc" has negligible pageviews so I'm happy to remove it from the hatnote. I think your proposed solution, though, would go against the consensus at the RfD discussion, so a new one would be required. Seeing as you agree that public limited company is a plausible target for a reader searching for "UK plc", I'm going to restore a hatnote for that article and leave it up to you as to whether a new RfD's necessary. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 20:31, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
That discussion does not preculde the creation of either a UK plc article or disambiguation page, it was purely a discussion on which page the redirect should go to if there were one.Rangoon11 (talk) 21:22, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
I have now created a disambiguation page which I feel is the most sensible solution. There is also @UK plc to consider too. Rangoon11 (talk) 21:43, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
Not convinced by your first argument – there could have been a consensus to turn it into a disambiguation page, a frequent outcome at RfD, but there obviously wasn't – however I'm happy to leave it be in the absence of any stronger objections than mine. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 23:58, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
To be fair it was a very short discussion, shorter even than this now is, and the idea of a disambiguation page was not raised. Rangoon11 (talk) 00:31, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Exports[edit]

Missing trader fraud being 10% of exports sounds rather large. On the link it states According to the case Federation of Technological Industries v Customs and Excise Commissioners ([2004] EWCA Civ 1020) in 2002-3 the estimated cumulative cost of such frauds to the UK alone was between £1.65 and £2.64 billion (US$2.9 to $4.62). which is a much smaller fraction of exports.

I suspect a table would be more useful than a diagram representing exports, much of the text is difficult to see. Should the financial sector be represented? --Andromedean (talk) 20:36, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

North Sea oil[edit]

This page shows a huge fall-off in 1994, from almost 2000kbpd to less than a hundred. What happened? — LlywelynII 09:54, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Wikiecon[edit]

I would love to see a Wiki project map out the global economy. In an organized format all local/country economic data would be collected. All authors would be required to write articles according to a standardized and cited format. The model revolves around publicly released economic data: GDP, employment, industries, corporations, fiscal policy, etc. Economists and volunteers can help determine which economic data accounts are most appropriate to be required under the standardized format. There is nothing in the world that resembles this model. There is no Wiki that allows economists to add economic data under a standardized format. I have already written the article for 'Economy of the United States'. It is 7 pages long. This article contains what I believe is the most important economic data available to the public. The data is almost entirely in table format. Citations include the U.S. Census Bureau, the World Bank, Bureau of Economic Analysis, Yahoo Finance, CNN'S Money's Fortune 500 list, U.S. treasury releases, Federal Reserve websites, company SEC filings and the IMF. The article can be seen in PDF format at: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:United_States_Economy.pdf The Contents are: 1. States, 2. Industries, 3. Corporations, 4. Employment, 5. Fiscal Budget, 6. Monetary Policy, 7. Creditors, 8. Cities, 9. International Accounts 9. History All articles would be standardized and connected in an organized network. This model would go down to the most local level. All 196 countries would have a standardized country article to have the same exact format used in the attached file. This project would evolve as economists determine better ways to present the data.

The 'Economy of ______' pages would be a very educational collection of economic data. I think that these articles would be greatly improved if they were modified to become uniform. This would allow for greater comparability. I believe that these pages would be improved with a standardized and simplified format. This would allow for greater comparability and public understanding of the economy and fiscal budgets. Below are the Wikipedia Contents of the four biggest economy articles. As you can see, the Contents are inconsistent between them. I believe this can be fixed with my Wiki project proposal. 1. Economy of the United States 1 History 2 Overview 3 Employment 4 Research, development, and entrepreneurship 5 Income and wealth 6 Financial position 7 Industry Sectors 8 Notable companies and markets 9 Energy, transportation, and telecommunications 10 Finance 11 Health care 12 International trade 13 Currency and central bank 14 Law and government 15 See also 16 References 17 External links 2. Economy of China 1 History 2 Government role 3 Regional economies 4 Development 5 Macroeconomic trends 6 Financial and banking system 7 Industry Sectors 8 Labor and welfare 9 External trade 10 Foreign investment 11 Demographics 12 Transportation and infrastructure 13 Science and technology 14 See also 15 References 16 External links 3. Economy of Japan 1 Economic history 2 Infrastructure 3 Macro-economic trend 4 Services 5 Industry 6 Mining and petroleum exploration 7 Agriculture 8 Labor force 9 Law and government 10 Culture 11 Other economic indicators 12 See also 13 Notes 14 External links 4. Economy of Germany 1 History 2 Macroeconomic data 3 Economic region 4 Natural resources 5 Sectors 6 Infrastructure 7 Technology 8 See also 9 References 10 External links — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcnabber091 (talkcontribs) 19:30, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

infographic / circular flow of the economy?[edit]

Hi, I’m Andrew Clark and I work at the Office for National Statistics in the UK.

We publish lots of infographics and I wonder if this of the circular flow of the economy (showing where ONS publications fit) would be of interest for UK_economy

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:How_ONS_statistics_explain_the_UK_economy_Feb_2012_%288790240798%29.jpg

FYI, the full gallery, updated weekly, is here <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Content_created_by_the_Office_for_National_Statistics>

All the best

Andrew Clark (smanders1982) 10 Dec 2013

Smanders1982 (talk) 13:52, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Public Debt[edit]

I wanted to know how is possible to have a so huge difference between the percentage of GDP's Public Debt from the Office for National Statistics (75,4%) and in other part the percentage given by CIA Factbook (more than 90%) the International Monetary Fund (also more than 90%). 90.52.145.184 (talk) 10:36, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

I think it depends on whether you include financial sector interventions to rescue the banking sector into the public sector net debt figures - its a contingent liability you see and so arguably should not be included. I hope that answers your question. AdamFouracre (talk) 15:02, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
Agree with that, but do others countries do the same, per example the US, Germany or France ? Those three countries also had a massive financial sector interventions. If they don't, your contigent liability would create in fact a false discrepancy in term of debt comparaison between countries, isn't it ? 90.52.36.34 (talk) 04:01, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
Oh dear, from the same [review of the Office for National Statistics] stating the 75,4%, if we include the temporary effects of financial interventions, the debt of UK arises to 132,1% (page 28 table 5), that was way worse than I thought.90.52.36.34 (talk) 07:02, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

export import[edit]

exports $813 billion and imports $782 billion are far larger than other ref on the web.

monetary information is useless[edit]

all pages that deal with an economy should have that countries monetary units as the prime info, then dollars, sterling and euros in brackets, unless they use dollars then just put sterling and euros in brackets etc. so for the UK GDP should be in £'s then have dollar and euro values bracketed behind it. most visitors to the page from the country (any country) won't like having to go find a web currency converter to work out what the GDP is in a currency they have some idea about. and before anyone says that dollars are easy, actually the dollars various exchange rates are pretty fluid, and europeans and brits generally have little use for the dollar in discussions, sterling or euros all the way! 82.9.105.183 (talk) 16:31, 18 September 2014 (UTC)