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The text on http://www.afrum.com/index.php?hash=af8db98168bdd5c93250c79d8a8e442c&categ=art_cur&action=vypis&select=401 is free to copy under the copyleft notice stated on the website —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tuptan (talk • contribs) 20:17, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
Dispute about the Origin - Clean up Needed
1. The only source of the link to Mozambique is Berit Sahlström article - there are tens of books and articles but no one support the thesis of Mozambique origin. For example: "Tingatinga - Popular art of Tanzania" by Y.Goscinny, "Tingatinga - art or kitch" by Hanne Thorup or "Tingatinga" by Swiss Development Agency. All three publications are based on interviews with artists and family of E.S.Tingatinga inclusive his children. The Berit Sahlströms article has got influence and is copied since it appears on top of Google rankings, Berit is professor and the article is academic. Worth to notice though - there is no date on the article though it was written in 1996. It is relatively easy to establish the original source of Mozambique link and the plenty of copied material - mostly on Internet
2. The article by Berit Sahlström is based on the diploma work of her student Mia Terent. Mia Terent never vistied Tanzania during research, never interviewed the family of E.S.Tingatinga, never met them. - this statement is based on email correspondence between Tingatinga Cooperative (TACS), Mia Terent and Berit Sahlström. Berit Sahlström was not researching on Tinga Tinga, she was a member of Tanzanian parlament and lived in Tanzania. During her visits to E.S.Tingatinga she may get a wrong impression that E.S.Tingatinga is Mozambiquan because of following: Tingatinga´s wife Agatha was born in Mozambique (she was Makonde tribe and came to Tanzania when she was a child). Further Agatha invited other Makonde family members from Mozambique to E.S.Tingatinga´s house. They probably spoke Portugesse with each other. Since the influence of Tingatinga´s wife on Tingatinga, some painters complain until today that Tingatinga has dissapointed them when leaving the his Makua family.
3. The citation about political role is from letter of Berit Sahlström to Tingatinga Cooperative in 2009.
4. No one who meets and interviews the family of E.S.Tingatinga comes to conclusion that the fami--Tuptan (talk) 07:09, 27 October 2010 (UTC)ly has link to Mozambique. It is questionable to write a research paper and not meet the Tinga Tinga artists while the research paper is primarily about them and their art. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tuptan (talk • contribs) 05:10, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
- (conflicted)All this information is quite useful and rare, Tuptan, and you've done a great work in finding it and including it in the article. It would be useful if any source could be provided for the claims you make (not that I don't believe you, mind you :-), it's just that we need sources for claims). I see some of the things you wrote come from the TACS website, if this is the case also for the letters you mention, it would be useful if you could provide a link to this. I moved much of the text to footnotes for a matter of balance, as the article main body, IMO at least, just focus as closely as possible on providing information, while documenting information is more of a footnotes' job. I hope this can be agreed upon. I conflicted you in editing but I tried to check if I had removed anything you wrote; if I missed something please forgive me (and edit it in back). I also found it interesting (although not essential, as it is not really about T.T. himself) the reference to Makonde art "tanzanization" that you had put in the article a few days ago and later removed... Moongateclimber (talk) 07:33, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
I am composing a list of literature/books/articles which say that E.S.Tingatinga was born in South Tanzania, not Mozambique. All sources state Tanzania as birthplace. It is not suprising because we talk about recent "history". The family is living, his children are living, still one of his student is living, the people remembering Tingatinga in the villages are still living. I am rather suprised that such dispute exists. It is not even "a big scientific" question, it has not much to do with politics or trying to "change history". It is paradox that a Swedish professor tells to children of E.S.Tingatinga where their father was born. Why is there dispute then? First, Berit Sahlström is professor of Art history and it makes the article extreemly academic. Second, the article was published when Internet started in ninetees and in Google it is often the first page to come up. Third - the titel is very academic and descriptive (Tingatinga and his followers). Fourth - it has been copied both on Internet and in paperform; I have seen the information even on a exhibition. But I think the article is great, the first sentence is unfortunate. I will compose the list of literature, references. An interesting tip - try to see if you find another research paper which says Tingatinga was born in Mozambique. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 06:57, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Ok, I see. The "Tanzanification" of Makonde art is a fact and I have no problem to cite the complete answer of Berit Sahlström. I removed it because it was long. As you see, I wrote also a very long text and then I deleted much of it for the sake of clarity. It could be ok to cite the complete answer, because it shows the cultural-political aspect of argumentation. I would expect when we talk lets say about 100 or 200 years back in time, but we speak about present and about a father of two children who lives among us
- I understand your point of view; it seems a paradox that a written source by someone who has never even been in Tanzania should be more influent than first hand information obtained from living people who actually knew E.S.Tingatinga, yet, in principle, this is a consequence of Wikipedia's use of references, as references must be verifiable. Yet I wouldn't want to stress this point to extreme, nonsense consequences. Some unreferenced assertions might be welcome as long as the article clearly indicates that they are un- (or ill-)referenced, there's no specific reason to think they're biased or outright false, and no one complains. I think the TT articles are improving and collaboration is working despite some different points of view being expressed in the talk pages. If we can stick to being reasonable and open to discussion, I think we can do a good job. Moongateclimber (talk) 08:32, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
The wrong to write: some sources claim that he was born in Mozambique. The main source of this claim is a 1996 article. First - if you write "some sources" then show me the other sources. Second - if you write "Main" source then show me the "secondary" source. Showing a secondary source where the Mozambican link is claimed would be the proof of the claim. Not the other way round. I proof that the article is the only source just through the inability to find other sources. Or how could I proof it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tuptan (talk • contribs) 07:21, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
- I think you're right in a sense, but not completely. Saying that B. is the only source is quite strong, how can you be sure about this? A citation would something along the lines of a scholar research where some reliable source says this (i.e., that B. is "the only source", or more likely, that is "the only known source" or something like this). A scholar that says that the idea of a Mozambican origin of E.S.T. is "probably due to a mistake made by B. in his article" etc. would be just ok. Otherwise, you will have to agree that saying that there is only "one source" is an unreferenced claim. Also, you also said that many websites and articles reported B.'s version, so what you probably mean would be that B. is the only primary source, not the only source overall (yet this too is unreferenced). I've written "the main" source because at the very least there are "secondary" sources that speak of Mozambique as a consequence of B's supposed mistake. I will try to look again at sources I can find so that mine can be a reference claim :-) Moongateclimber (talk) 07:33, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
- Well it looks like a reference on the lines I mentioned did exist. I've added the reference and removed some "citation needed". Moongateclimber (talk) 07:45, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
"The only source" or "main source"
The claim "the only source" is meant as the "original source of information". I agree now there are many websites which claim the birthplace to be Mozambique so Berit´s source is the primary source. I had on mind the issue of tracing back the source of information.
The information about E.S.Tingatinga´s life is based on books. There are few books and exhibition catalogues which are references. (I have not found a single book or catalogue claiming Tingatinga was born in Mozambique). I have to fix a literature list and then refer to the books from the text, I guess. --Tuptan (talk) 08:20, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
The German Version
The German version of the article gives a feeling to the readers that Tingatinga Cooperative have absolutely no right to any trademark. The person who writes about trademark of TACS has no documents and therefore his contribution can´t be seen as neutral. How to provide more information to German Wikipedia while I don´t German? --Tuptan (talk) 08:51, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'm sure most Germans will understand if you write in their talk page in english. Moongateclimber (talk) 09:01, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
What about the name "Eduardo", "Saidi"?
Anyone can shed some light on the very basic issue of Tingatinga's name? Some references call him "Eduardo", is it a consequence of the purported "Mozambique error"? Also, is the correct spelling of his arab name, as used in Tanzania, "Said" or "Saidi"? Moongateclimber (talk) 07:22, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Agnes Mpata (dauhgter of Cecilia Mpata who was sister of E.S.Tingatinga) told me today: "It depends on the habit of the people who write about Tingatinga". What did she mean? Simply this - I am Czech and we always translate the names to Czech so we would write Edvard. Another Tanzanian artist is called Johnny in Italian books though his name is John.
Berit Sahlström used the Portugeese variation of the names like - Eduardo, Seymond etc. I don´t know why. Berit is Swedish, not Portugese. And according to her articles Tingatinga lived in Tanzania where he could hardly be called Eduardo. I am puzzled by the spelling of Simon´s name - Seymond. Did Barbro Johansson tell to Mia Terent that even Simon Mpata was born in Mozambique? Could the Portugeese spelling include more members of the Tingatinga family even if they all are living in Tanzania? Or does Berit believe that other members of the family are also born in Mozambique? If Berit was Portugeese herself I would understand.
Said is Arabic version of the Swahili name Saidi. (We have many examples in Tanzania - Rashid-Rashidi, Abbas-Abassi; they call me Dani, not Daniel; and we have even Omary-Omari). Saidi is used in Tanzania. His ID card says: Edward Saidi.
But the story continues: the name on the grave: Eduwadi Saidi Mlaponi Mmakua. Mlaponi is clan family name, I guess. But Mmakua could mean the a man from the tribe Makua?
And what about the Eduwadi? I have seen even Eduwardi. The spelling and grammar is not so important for Tanzanian Tinga Tinga artists as for Westerners. A painter called me at least 5 times one evening before we agreed on his name for exhibition catalogue: Sey Rashid Hussein or Sey Husseini Rashid or Rashidi Sey Hussein...complete chaos. Eduwadi and Eduwardi are simply misspellings or Swahili versions, call it how you like. Researchers should not ask the painters about spellings before they ask them if they know to read and write.
Did you notice there was no Tingatinga in the ID and on the grave? Why not? Maybe Edward himself and the painters (who are all family) are not comfortable to be reminded about that strange hunter from Ngindo tribe who spent one night with Agnes Ntembo, the mother of Edward? Edward felt certainly as outsider. He married woman from another tribe, his friends were strangers from Mozambique...He left the family, very unusual in Africa (ok Nyerere deleted the tribal frictions but he married before Nyerere)! In fact I am puzzled why the painters chose the name Tingatinga for the paintings. But on the other hand many painters left the group because they did not agree with the trademark. In fact, even after 40 years - the group resists to use the brand Tinga Tinga for their own paintings and products. (these are the painters in Slipway - still relatives to Tingatinga family)
The important things to consider when dealing with African realities - we in West have a visual mirror of the words when we talk. We think in words. Africans have on the other hand greater sense for the rhytm. The literature is rare while the story telling tradition is great. Which sense does it make to ask people about spelling when most African languages do not have even a grammar? Don´t be surprised when different researchers come to different results as for spelling. Agnes Mpata´s answer about "different habits" irritated me somehow so I asked her: But how did you and your family call him? Edward - she asnwered. --Tuptan (talk) 19:21, 27 October 2010 (UTC)