|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Egyptology article.|
|WikiProject Ancient Egypt||(Rated Start-class, High-importance)|
|WikiProject Archaeology||(Rated Start-class, Top-importance)|
I defined this article as a stub today. It should contain more about the subject, at least a presentation of the most important and best known egyptologists, and the different areas and topics of ongoing resarch. It should perhaps also contain a section on the history of egyptology. I am merely an interested layman in the field, but it seems unlikely that someone with a better grip on the subject matter, for instance the person or persons behind the portal to egyptology, should not be able to make this article into a real introduction to the subject. One of the objectives of this article should be to get more people interested in its subject. --Thorsen 09:02, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Only with knowledge of Egyptian writing and language was it possible to study Ancient Egyptian culture.
That's not correct, surely? And the line about `modern Egyptology starting in 1822'---is that true, i.e. is there a good reason for the statement, or is it just twee nonsense? Penfold 09:02, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Of course, it is possible to study ancient Egyptian culture without a knowledge of Egyptian writing and language, but it would make our understanding all the poorer. I think this is just a matter of wording and semantics..... Far too generalised a comment that needs changing. Perhaps better to say that such an understanding provided keys to studying the culture and provided a strong impetus for the same.
- The bit about modern Egyptology starting in 1822 is reasonably valid - 1822 marks the announcement by Champollion of his general decipherment of hieroglyphics for the first time..... Which brings us back to the writing and language point..... I think we could let this comment stand - most professional Egyptologists, including myself, would trace the beginnings of the discipline back to this early point. Pjamescowie 10:44, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Nice work. Ta. Penfold 12:09, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- No worries. I'm looking to make quite a few other changes within the Wikipedia for archaeology topics within my own research domain.... Watch this space! Pjamescowie 13:07, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Egyptology's the study of Egypt,
- By looking at Egyptian antiquities:
- They scientifically examine pyramid and the crypt
- With an eye out for historical iniquities.
- Egyptology's a regional and thematic division
- Of the discipline of archeologist
- And ancient historian; whose broader vision's
- less regional and thematic than the Egyptologist.
- Egyptology investigates the range
- of Ancient Egyptian cultural change
- (In language and writing,
- Religion and fighting,
- Art, Economics and rhetorical citing)
- From the height of the 5th millennium BC
- To the end of the Romans in 300 AD.
- Modern Egyptology (as opposed to an antiquarian
- Interest in Egypt and what is therein)
- Is generally perceived as beginning in or on
- 1822, when Jean-François Champollion
- Announced his general decipherment of the system
- Of hieroglyphics (for those who'd previously missed them),
- With the Rosetta Stone
- All on its own
- He was able to work out the symbols and list them.
- But now we have a far more attractive academic tender
- Of Egyptian writing, language, architectural splendour
- And the study of Egypt
- Is superbly well equipped
- To proceed with a rigour that comprehension of written sources was able to engender.
Canals of the Sudan
It could prove interesting to extend your research into the canals of the Sudan which are equally thought to have been destroyed, like Egypt, by the original, physical, collision with Mars.
When debris rained down from Mars people threw themselves into the canals, as much was hot material. Later it was thought that this was some sort of battle or ritual execution, but it was, in fact the collision. (Hell fire and brimstone, etc.)
Can anyone explain what the [s]above[/s] deleted sections have to do with Egyptology? If not, then I will report them as vandalism. Cheers Markh 11:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- Mark, I deleted them as Ian Chattan (talk · contribs) is spamming them or something very like them to several talk pages. Check his contributions list; I'm getting rid of the rambles if you want to deal with the reporting. -- nae'blis (talk) 18:25, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Stuff to work in
- Literature: Were Egyptian hieroglyphs the first written language? Why did the Egyptians use hieroglyphs?
- Literature: Why were hieroglyphs forgotten?
- Literature: Was the Story of Sinuhe a myth or real? If it was real, did Sinuhe abandon his duty or was he a hero?
- Customs: Who were the Egyptian priests and magicians? What kind of magic and spells did they use?
- Geography: Where was the land of Punt? Why was it referred to as "God's Land"?
- Geography: Was Alashiya the island Cyprus?
- Geography: Where was the area of Yam?
- History: Did the "Nubian Dark Age" really occur in the Twenty-fifth dynasty of Egypt?
- History: Was the First Intermediate Period of Egypt really a Dark Age?
- History: Who was the victor at the Battle of Kadesh?
- History: Why did Plato write about Atlantis as described by Sonchis, Egyptian priest of Thebes? Who was Solon and why did he visit Egypt? Did Solon meet Sonchis or is it a fable?
- History: Why were there Minoan paintings in Avaris? What was the relationship between Minoan civilization and Egyptian civilization?
- Methods: How did the Egyptians shape, form, and work granite?
- Methods: When did Egyptians start producing glass?
- Methods: Why is there not a neat progression to an Egyptian iron age? Why did the Egyptians take so long to utilize iron?
- Methods: Were the Egyptians capable of long distant navigation in their boats? When did they become knowledgeable seamen?
- Knowledge: Did Egyptians have some form of understanding of electricity? Did the Egyptians use batteries? What is the relief at Dendera?
- Knowledge: What does the Tulli Papyrus describe? Did it come from the reign of Thutmosis III?
- Persona: Was Joseph the vizier to Amenhotep III? If so, was he in fact Vizier Yuya, or Osarseph? Were Yuya, Osarseph, and Joseph all the same person?
- Persona: Is there a connection between Moses and Akhenaten (see Osarseph)? Could Akhenaten have been Moses himself, or perhaps Yehoshua?
- Persona: Who was Labaya? Was he a biblical figure (such as Saul)?
- Persona: What Pharaoh gave Solomon his daughter to marry? Was it Shishanq I, or perhaps Psusennes II?
- Event: Was the Exodus of the Israelites mythological or historical? If it was historical, under which Pharaoh did it occur? How many Hebrews were in Egypt? How many left in the Exodus? 600 families or 600,000 people? Was it in fact the Shasu exodus from Sinai to Arabia and then Canaan at the end of the reign of Ramses I, or was it based on the Hyksos expulsion? Was the pharaoh of the Exodus Dudimose, a Hyksos pharaoh, Ahmose I, Djehutymes III, Amenhotep II, Amenhotep III, Ramses I, Ramses II, Merneptah, or perhaps an unsuggested pharaoh?
- Event: Was King Solomon involved in Egyptian religious practices, such as Atenism?
- Customs: Why did the Egyptians mummify the deceased? When did the process of mummification originate? How was the "Myth of Osiris" tied to mummification?
- Customs: Were there human sacrifices at royal tombs, or is this just blood libel?
- Customs: What was the meaning of the royal boats at Abydos?
- Customs: Where are the Apis bull burials?
- Tomb: Where is the royal tomb of Amenhotep I? Why was Amenhotep's body moved?
- Tomb: Who are the individuals that are buried at Qurneh?
- Tomb: Was the tomb of the sons of Ramesses II founded by Amenhotep II?
- Tomb: Where are the Third Intermediate Dynasty tombs at Tanis?
- Pyramids: What were the origins of the Egyptian pyramids? When and where was the concept of pyramids conceived? What were the pyramids used for? How were the pyramids built? When and why did the era of pyramid building end?
- Pyramids: Why did Snofru build multiple pyramids? Are the "proper" pyramids (like the Red Pyramid) really his?
- Pyramids: Does Abydos contain the last royal pyramids? Why was it built? Why does it have a pyramid?
- Temples: How old is the Sphinx? Does the Sphinx date to the predynastic period or the Old Kingdom? What was the purpose of the Sphinx? Which pharaoh was the Sphinx meant to resemble? Was it built by Khufu, Djedefra, or in fact Khafra?
- Temples : Was the Labyrinth at Heracleopolis a myth or real?
- Temples : Who built the Osireion at Abydos?
- Temples : Is the Hall of Records real? If so, where is it? Is it under the Great Pyramid? Is it under the Sphinx?
- Persona: Was King Khufu (Cheops) a good ruler or a tyrant, as later tradition described him?
- Persona: Where is the body of Akhenaten? Was Akhenaten killed or exiled? What did Akhenaten believe? Did Aten have a connection with Adonai, Yahweh, or Elohim?
- Persona: Who was Tutankhamun? How did Tutankhamun die? Was he son of Akhenaten? Was he really son of Kiya, or could he have been son of Nefertiti?
- Persona: What happened to Hatshepsut? Was Senenmut the lover of Hatshepsut?
- Persona: Was Khababash of the Thirtieth dynasty of Egypt a proper Pharaoh? Where did Khababash come from?
- Customs: Was the Pharaoh really seen as a god or the position he held just viewed as divine?
- Event: What kind of reign was Pharaoh Smendes I's rule? Was Egypt split during his governance?
- Event: Did Ramesses III defend Egypt against the Sea People because they were invading or were they people fleeing to Egypt in the middle of a war?
- Event: Was Ramesses III assassinated?
- Event: Was Amenemhat I assassinated?
- Event: What happened to Nefertiti? What caused the disappearance of Nefertiti? Was Nefertiti Smenkhkare? Did Nefertiti ever rule Egypt alone?
- Event: Did Necho II really send out an expedition which sailed from the Red Sea around Africa back to the mouth of the Nile?
- History: Where did the Egyptians come from? What did the Egyptians know of their own history?
- History: What was the origin of the Hyksos? Who were their first leaders?
01:13, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Stuff to Work In--Worked On
- Knowledge: What was the Saqqara Bird?
Egyptology may only study Egypt up to the 4th century AD, but thats NOT when Roman rule ended. Duh. Ever heard of the BYZANTINE EMPIRE? Check out the Byzantine-Arab wars (which for some stupid reason is in red), please, before you make me laugh. Gees. I changed this to save your sorry asses. Pardon the language and exression but...come on... Gees!! Tourskin.
Scope of this article
There seems to some confusion here. The article should be about the discipline of Egyptology, not about Ancient Egypt (that is, although it should describe what sorts of things Egyptology studies, it stops there and doesn't start to discuss them).Doug Weller (talk) 07:30, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Egyptology is not a serious discipline
I have A LOT to say about this, but dont have time right now,will do it later. Basically I want to point out at the statement saying it is a branch of archaeology - how can that be - archaeology is a science while egyptology is like an amateur hobby -lingering close to pseudo science -why do I say that? Well because egyptology is exclusively made up of guess work and assumptions - a discipline made up of just assumptions and guesses is no science and can't really be taken seriously. I say all this because Egyptology is illiterate in the sciences of astronomy and geology, which as many scientists and historians in the world know can prove or disprove any of the assumptions that the Egyptologist makes. Egyptology doesnt use astronomy and geology, making the discipline ultimately close to useless, Egyptology should be seen as a guideline for archaeology while using astronomy and geology!! The most important example here is the dating of the pyramids. Egyptology asserts the given date (by assumptions and guesswork, ignoring astronomers and geologist), while real scientists such as geologist and astronomers point out that they are far, far older (with proper, real evidence - which automatically gains more respect than egyptologists' claims, as the evidence by geologists and astronomers is based on real, factual science). Many, many, many people are aware of this, but this doesn't get mentioned a lot, why? I think this is completely ridiculous. Egyptology is given far more respect and acknowledgment than it really deserves, as a matter of fact, by understanding what I said above, you will see it deserves close to none. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 11:55, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
- Handy tl;dr summary: Egyptology is bunk, Pyramidology is real science! --Florian Blaschke (talk) 13:01, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
A mature category exists called "Category:Pseudoegyptology". It imagines its primary article to be the currently-nonexistent "Pseudoegyptology" article, which I have no intention of writing (although another editor might choose to do so). Instead, I have:
- . Separated the last paragraph of this article to a section called "Egyptology#Pseudoegyptology" and
- . At "Pseudoegyptology", redirected the term to the aforementioned section.
- The section has been deleted for lack of sources in the meanwhile. That said, is there any appreciable difference between Pyramidology and Pseudoegyptology at all? (Seeing that pyramidology covers all the range from assorted pseudoarchaeological to numerological speculations.) I suspect there would be no loss in deleting Category:Pseudoegyptology as virtually redundant with Category:Pyramidology (after moving the remaining articles from Category:Pseudoegyptology there) and redirecting Pseudoegyptology to Pyramidology. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 13:17, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, pyramidology is more like a subset of "pseudoegyptology". There are all sorts of mystical and pseudoarchaeological claims made about ancient Egypt. The pyramids are only the most popular subject for the mystics.
- A bigger problem is that I've never seen RSes use the term "pseudoegyptology". Erik Hornung, in The Secret Lore of Egypt, dubs it "Egyptosophy". The term "alternative Egyptology" may have a slightly wider currency, although I prefer Hornung's word. See the discussion at Talk:R. A. Schwaller de Lubicz#Egyptologist, where Morgan Leigh and I settled on describing Schwaller de Lubicz as an alternative Egyptologist.
- I keep track of Egyptosophical subjects a good bit, and I can tell you there really aren't a lot of good sources that analyze it. I have enough that I could write an anemic article on it, but I don't even have time for that right now. And without an article to support it, the category is on shaky ground. Pyramidology, the Dendera light, and the Saqqara bird would pretty clearly fit in such a category, as would the Hancock and Bauval book. But including the Book of Sothis is original research. Personally, I believe the book is a good example of the mysticism that has surrounded Egypt since Roman times, which is the direct forerunner of modern Egyptosophy, but I know of no sources that say so. The category should probably be scrapped for now. Put the Dendera light, Saqqara bird, the Hancock and Bauval book, and the Pyramidology category in Category:Pseudoarchaeology. Just leave the Book of Sothis out of it. The category may become viable someday, as I think scholars are beginning to pay more attention to the subject. A. Parrot (talk) 21:03, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
- Ah, OK. I hadn't checked the Pyramidology article closely – I saw ancient astronauts and all kind of bunk in the table of contents and thought pyramidiocy is a random grab-bag of assorted speculation about ancient Egypt while missing that it's really all related to pyramids.
- Those articles you name are already in that category. I've listed this category for deletion as it is now redundant. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 21:27, 22 April 2014 (UTC)