|Elagabalus is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.|
|This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on May 16, 2008.|
|Current status: Featured article|
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
|A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day... section on March 11, 2011, March 11, 2013, and March 11, 2015.|
|Version 0.5 (Rated FA-Class)|
|This History article has been selected for Version 0.5 and subsequent release versions of Wikipedia. It has been rated FA-Class on the assessment scale.|
- 1 Valdalism
- 2 older entries
- 3 Transsexuality and pronouns
- 4 History loss
- 5 Transgenderism
- 6 Elegabalus
- 7 Some sections seem to have been vandalised
- 8 Propaganda
- 9 Some problems with the article
- 10 The emperor's name
- 11 Unprotect
- 12 Inconsistency over his age at the time of his death
- 13 "As such"
- 14 Minor edit in "Fall from power"
- 15 Why is this buried?
- 16 Parallels
- 17 Elagabalus's Circumcision
- 18 So Elagabalus was just gay?
- 19 Flaws
- 20 Raised his horse to office of Consul?
- 21 Stylistic edits
- 22 Misspellings of his name
- 23 Demonetisation
- 24 Is this article still FA-worthy?
- 25 Elagabalus in later art
- 26 Compulsory sodomy
- 27 NAME OF EMPERORS
- 28 John Stuart Hay
Tried, but can't. The title has something like a "double"... Besides, there was a lot of vandalism in the article ("Elagay'ballus", "Heliogay'ballus")... Fixed that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 23:31, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
A quick googling show Heliogabalus 3,520 hits vs. Elagabalus 5,670 hits. I am thinking about moving this page there unless someone objects. M123 17:45, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Transsexuality and pronouns
It seems to me it would be more appropriate to use female pronouns for Elagabalus throughout this article. --Eequor 10:23, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
It is not speculation to say Elagabalus was transsexual. Prior to my editing, the article included the following:
- including the claim that he had an artificial vagina cut into his body
This is corroborated in each of the pages I linked. Such a desire very clearly identifies Elagabalus as transsexual. --Eequor 15:40, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
One would do well to read The Amazing Emperor Heliogabalus, written in 1911 by J. Stuart Hay. The author discredits previous works as unfairly biased and states a desire to "right a wrong". This book provides further corroboration for the claims of Elagabalus' behavior:
- Of course it would have been curious to see him in that wonderful palace, clothed like a Persian queen, insisting that he should be addressed as Imperatrix, and quite living up to the title. It would not only have been interesting, it would have given one an insight into how much Rome saw and how much she could stand.
- But it was not his voluptuousness that the world objected to; it was the abnormal condition of his mind; because in the body of the man resided the soul with all the natural passions of a woman. He was what the world knew as a Psycho- sexual Hermaphrodite.
- Certainly Hierocles had no just cause for fear; Elagabalus' affection was too feminine, too deep-rooted, to do more than tease the man from whose hands, like many another woman in history, he was more than willing to take ill-usage and stripes, if only they were signs of jealousy or proofs of affection.
- It may be that, as Lampridius says, his effeminacy disgusted the virile Roman world.
- In this epitome of the qualities demanded of men we see the true grounds on which the world has instinctively condemned Elagabalus, though probably without quite knowing why they did so. It is because they have been told that he possessed the virtues, along with the mind, of the woman, and a voluptuous woman at that, and had nothing of what the world expects to find in the male animal.
--Eequor 17:08, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Careful when applying 20th century concepts to historical persons
Well, this question is always very, very tricky. Undoubtably, gender variant people have existed throughout the ages,  (Eequor already cited it) gives an overview, as does Leslie Feinberg's Transgender Warriors. However, there are two things one always has to keep in mind when talking about history: One, not all sources are neutral. That is especially true when successors talk about the "debauchery" of their predecessors. Two, some categories did not exist at the time a particular person did live. That is equally true of homosexual, gay and lesbian, and transgender, transsexual, transvestite and all other terms describing gender variant people or behaviour. Therefore, applying these categories or descriptions to historical persons has to be done with the utmost care. In fact, most of the time it will be completely impossible - who can, with any certainty, say that a person behaved in a gender variant way because they were trans*, and not intersex, or merely in a way gay or lesbian that was expressed in a gender-variant way? The latter was at many times, after all, quite the norm. Additionally, such behaviour might have reasons completely unrelated to any of these reasons. So much for the general problem, now to the specific person in question:
I am not saying that what Eequor cites does not look very much as if Elagabalus was transgendered, and possibly transsexual. However, this is speculation, which I would consider NPOV and at least unproven as long as it is not being said by a historian who has reviewed the sources critically; and preferably by one who wrote after words like transgender and transsexual were coined, and the concepts described. Benjamin is certainly not a historian, and the second source given  is not exactly a strictly scientific historian one, as much as appreciate its existence. Same goes for Leslie Feinberg.
Therefore, I think that we cannot say, without violating the rules of NPOV and accuracy, that Elagabalus was transgendered and/or transsexual. What we can say without violating these rules though is something like "In various sources, Elagabalus' behaviour has been described in a way that today would undoubtably be described as transgender or gender variant, probably transsexual." It is also not usually done to use the "other" pronouns when describing historical people who show gender variant behaviour, with very few exceptions, non of which seem to applie here, and I think it would only confuse readers. Therefore, I think inserting the sentence above (or something similar) would be the best solution, until we have more critically reviewed data; and, for the change of pronouns, a change of habits in writing. -- AlexR 23:26, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- If what has been ascribed as his behaviour is anywhere near true, then he was just nuts, not transsexual. Maybe pseudotranssexual, but never a transsexual woman. It's not 'a woman's natural passion' to go around whoring herself out of boredom. Mind you, there have always been people that were nuts throughout history. The difference here is the word nuts was already around. 22.214.171.124 (talk) 02:54, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
I had actually edited this page twice. A database error occurred during my second update; the record of the first edit seems to have been destroyed. --Eequor 11:25, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Should I have spelled out the implications of that? This page should not be edited at all until the developers have a chance to look at whatever is going on. Doing anything may cause further damage. --Eequor 15:30, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Hmmm... If that's true, perhaps no one should make any edits to Wikipedia ;-) Seriously, though, I don't think we need to worry about "damage" or "records being destroyed" in this case. All software has bugs, and sometimes your edit never makes it into the database for some reason. I wouldn't be overly concerned. Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 02:42, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Locking the wiki wouldn't be that bad an idea, really. History being overwritten is a very serious bug. Consider the damage that could be done if somebody found a reliable way to cause database errors. A capable vandal could make changes that would be impossible to revert. --Eequor 04:43, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Referromg tp Elagabalus as "she" is absolutely ridiculous. Modern concepts of transgenderism ought not to be applied to the ancient world in the first place, and as Alex points out, it's very possible that the stuff said about Elagabalus is nothing more than calumny by his enemies. john k 02:45, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Transgenderism is hardly a recent phenomenon.  It hasn't changed significantly over thousands of years, either. The same ideas that hold today held during the reign of Elagabalus. --Eequor 03:19, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- As for calumny, one should look to the biases of the historians and inconsistencies between accounts. Fabrications are more likely to vary in the telling and even contradict each other. What is consistent throughout the works cited thus far?
- Elagabalus desired (and possibly succeeded) to have her anatomical gender changed. Even the earlier Wikipedia article mentioned this!
- Elagabalus was fairly effeminate, often (or always) wearing women's attire.
- Elagabalus took the role of wife to a slave named Hierocles.
- Elagabalus insisted upon being called empress (or imperatrix).
- Elagabalus was very active sexually.
- Note in particular that both NPOV Harry Benjamin and positively biased J. Stuart Hay agree on these. This is not calumny. --Eequor 03:45, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I suppose that's one view. I would strongly suspect that you'd be hard pressed to say that this is a generally accepted view. I don't know that much about scholarship on this issue. Certainly much of the scholarship on homosexuality focuses on the extent to which "homosexuality" as a category under which people are categorized (though not, of course, homosexual activities) has been constructed in relatively recent times. I would be highly surprised if the scholarship on transgenderism is not ultimately similar. john k 03:23, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Leah Q: I understand that research on trangender behaviour is an interesting topic. I read the links and i found them interesting and useful, that is why the external link was not removed. The people who wrote the research are the paradigm of speculators (thats their job as researchers in this field) and you are speculating . Wondering if Elagabalus preferring to be treated as a she or a he is the mother of all speculations. This kind of information does not belong in an encyclopaedia, it belongs to Scientific Journals on Psychology, Gender Studies, History and so on and so forth. Muriel G 13:23, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- I think it would be OK to have a brief mention of the theory at the end of this article; many of our articles report recent theories and research results, even ones that are kind of far out (I did a bit of this in Conflict of the Orders for instance). But we need to put a lot of caveats around it, because much of the lurid stuff comes from the Augustan History, which may itself be entirely fabricated. People who are not specialists in ancient history see a nicely printed book and may not realize that all we have is the words themselves; there is usually no independent authority or source material to vouch for their accuracy, and therefore no way to distinguish fact from fancy. Much of the job of classical scholars is just to dream up ways to extract another solid fact or two out of the mass of verbiage. Stan 19:59, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- I do not know off-hand the specifics of the Syrio-Phonecian worship of El-Gabal, but this might explain many of Elagabalus' sexual escapades if the tradition of worship included cultic prostitution. Astarte had male prostitutes as well as female. These seem to have played a passive role. What Elegabalus may have meant by specifically calling his male spouse (they were married by public rites) his "husband" may have been to specify himself as the receptive partner. I am mentioning it here in case anyone is researching along these lines already. I won't add it to the article without substatiation. At this time, it is merely an unverified educated guess. 126.96.36.199 (talk) 23:24, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
I redirected the page Elegabalus to this article, and put the old content at Talk:Elagabalus/Elegabalus. It seems all the content in that article is sufficiently covered here, but someone who knows better might like to check. Zeimusu | Talk page 04:03, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- The article is a cut and paste of an academic paper that has some rather good source material. Unfortunately, while the paper's author gives permission for the paper to be redistributed, his stated terms are not compabitable with Wikipedia's. As a result I have deleted the original page's history and the temp page. -JCarriker 07:55, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Some sections seem to have been vandalised
- "He also took a Vestal Virgin as one of a succession of wives and openly boasted that his sexual interest in men was more than just a casual pastime, as it had been for previous emperors. That means he was a total faggot"
I have deleted this section. The fact that he took a vestal virgin has been mentioned further on in the article
- Thanks – just want to add a humble request for signing your comments – ~~~~, you know... Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 11:40, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Second para in ingress:
- Elagabalus developed a reputation among his contemporaries for eccentricity, decadence, and zealotry which was likely exaggerated by his successors.  This propaganda was passed on and, as such, he was one of the most reviled Roman emperors to early Christian historians and later became a hero to the Decadent movement of the late 19th century. 
The text is OK, and the content probably true, but "This propaganda" seems like a typical Kremlologically inspired analysis, which is a 20th century method in history analysis – a citation would be suitable to strengthen this otherwise speculative statement. Same about inspiring the late 19th century Decadent Movement. Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 11:40, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Some problems with the article
- . I'm submitting this to WP:FAR since it does not meet current FAC standards, including a complete lack of citations.
- . I believe disambiguation is needed at the page Elagabalus between Elagabalus (Roman Empereror) and Elagabalus (Roman deity), and it sems odd especially that the Empreror is the main article at Elagabalus since his name is derivative of the pre-existing sun-god. At the very least I would expect a "This page is about Elagabalus the Roman Emperor, for the sun God of the same name see Elagabalus (Roman deity)" tag along the top of the page.
- . Although no a criticism of this article as such the second article on the sun God Elagabalus is in very poor shape and underwritten, it makes no mention for example of the later adoption of Elagabalus as the official Roman super-deity by (?) Aurelian (I think), certainly by one of the later emperors anyway. Generally, I think wikipedia assigns to much importance to the term "Elagabalus" as describing a Roman emperor and too little to the same term regarding the sun god that pre-existed the emperor in question, and also went on after him to become the official chief deity of the Roman empire.
- . While I'm not sure on official wikipedia policy, surely the article current sat at Elagabalus should be sat at Marcus Aurelius Antoninus, to which Elagabalus redirects, rather than vice versa? I notice the same problem exists with Caligula - I would have thought that an article would be under the person's full name rather than assumed names or nicknames???
- Well the point is I think that Caligula is almost universally known by that name, not as Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus. Few people (on average, I mean) even know that he was named Gaius to begin with. So it makes sense to put his article under 'Caligula'. Encyclopedia Britannica for example also does this. Same applies to Elagabalus. I doubt many people connect the name Elagabalus to the sun God anymore. The emperor's notoriety in history has long since overshadowed this origin. But you are right that at least a disambiguation makes sense. In the mean time, I've done some work to improve this article, including:
- Providing citations/references. This is almost done by now. Especially the religious controversy, gender controversy and historiography need further editing. Note that some of the links to the translation of Cassius Dio's Roman History are currently 'broken' in the sense that they do not yet lead to the referenced subsection. This has something to do with wrong name tags which I will probably fix tomorrow. Another minor issue I've had is that I sometimes did not know whether to prefer Dio over Herodian or the other way around. I've chosen Herodian mostly because he is 'allegedly' more objective, but where Dio was more detailed I used him.
- Replacing some of the existing images with better (at least in my opinion) alternatives.
- Sorting the cultural references section, although I still think it could use some trimming or maybe a move to a separate page.
- Regards. --Steerpike 01:25, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'm done with most of the citation work now. I've fixed all links to Dio's Roman History, so they should point to the correct subsection of the text now. There are however still several claims which need some attribution:
The etymology of the name El-Gabal and the origins of the sun worship. The fact that the Third Legion (Legio III Gallica) was disbanded after Elagabalus' succession. This seems to be commonly reported but I find no mention of the fact in any of the ancient sources. Somewhere else perhaps? Two points in historiography. This section looks more like original research right now.
- This last point is particulary important I think to bring the article back to featured quality. Ancient sources are valuable for biographical information, but a discussion of modern sources would shed some much needed light on the current views on Elagabalus. Regards. --Steerpike 15:05, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'm done with most of the citation work now. I've fixed all links to Dio's Roman History, so they should point to the correct subsection of the text now. There are however still several claims which need some attribution:
The emperor's name
Is there any evidence that he was ever really referred to as Elagabalus, either by himself or by his contemporaries? His actual legal Roman names are discussed here; if I'm remembering correctly, Cassius Dio (who lived during his reign) generally calls him "the false Antoninus."
Elagabalus is the name almost universally used for him in modern English scholarship, so I'm not disputing that the article name should be changed; but if that wasn't actually the common name used during his lifetime, the article should make that clear. --Jfruh (talk) 05:32, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Two of the coins shown bear the name IMP.ANTONINVS.PIVS.AVG. Assuming these coins belong here (which they quite probably do) the "PIVS" part should at least be mentioned in the emperor's short CV. Collideascope (talk) 20:22, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
It's several hours now since this was semi-protected. Is it not time to try unprotecting? I don't think that the subject of the article is so controversial that it would attract anything beyond the usual FA drive-by vandalism.--188.8.131.52 (talk) 06:22, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- I agree. Today's Featured Article is not supposed to be protected! 184.108.40.206 (talk) 09:31, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Inconsistency over his age at the time of his death
The infobox in the article states that Elagabalus died at the age of 19, yet the section detailing his fall from grace stipulates that he died aged 18. Which is correct? Thanks --Hadseys 10:45, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- It looks like his exact birthdate isn't known. If he was born before March 11, 203, he was 19. If he was born later in the year (statistically most likely), he was still 18. The infobox generates his age at death automatically. 220.127.116.11 (talk) 11:37, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- How can it there isnt a precise date given for his brith, only his death? --Hadseys 12:41, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Roman historians were far more likely to record the exact day the Emperor was assassinated than the day some obscure senator's son was born. They didn't have birth certificates or baptismal records in those days. 18.104.22.168 (talk) 13:22, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- My point being though if you only know the date of death and not birth, you cant calculate correctly his age at death
"As such" means "because he was that". You could say, "Elegabalus was eccentric. [or "... was a goofball."] As such, he was reviled." You might even be able to say, "He was reputedly eccentric. As such..." although that's doubtful. But it doesn't make sense to say, "He had a possibly exaggerated reputation for eccentricity. As such, he was reviled." There's no noun or adjective that he was for "such" to refer to. Also, the possibility of exaggeration confuses things further. —JerryFriedman (Talk) 18:55, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Minor edit in "Fall from power"
In the clause "When Julia Maesa perceived that popular support for the emperor was quickly wavering", "quickly wavering" doesn't make sense. Instead, I propose just "wavering", though "quickly waning" might be better, and I'll go ahead and make the edit if no one objects. I wouldn't normally make such a fuss over a minor edit, but this page has seen some fighting. Scutigera (talk) 22:50, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Why is this buried?
This article is packed full of interesting and sensational information about Elagabalus but why is the 'Historiography' section (which essentially says "very little of this information is based on reliable sources and quite a bit of it is unlikely to be true") buried in such a small section, so near the bottom? I think the article should be edited and rewritten so that people don't just read the exciting bits and accept them as fact.EttaLove (talk) 20:14, 13 June 2010 (UTC) I whole heartedly agree with the above post. But, I would doubt if any of the sources can be proved to be reliable. If they can, then how?22.214.171.124 (talk) 03:39, 3 October 2013 (UTC)Ronald L. Hughes
Is the similarity of Elagabalus' religion to that of Akhenaten purely coincidence? (I know there's a millennium and a half gap in time) Likewise, is the similarity of veneration for the meteorite related to pre-Islamic veneration of the Black Stone and similar red and white stones from the pagan era? (For that matter, does anyone know where Elagabalus' stone went? Could it be the same one as one of these others?) Wnt (talk) 04:33, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
- This is not an appropriate venue for discussion of these subjects, but if you do find reliable sources making such links do bring them here. Dougweller (talk) 06:16, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
- I have read that Elagabalus (El Gabal) was from Arab descent. The possibility that the Arab tribes before the rise of Islam were maybe given to worship meteorites also crossed my mind. I cannot however remember to have read this somewhere before. 126.96.36.199 (talk) 14:32, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
According to "Revelations of Elagabalus", E. did not have himself circumcised or even circumcise himself; and it explains, convincingly, why Dio's account is muddled and therefore misinterpreted. Emesenus (talk) 19:29, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
So Elagabalus was just gay?
One would think that Elagabalus' bad reputation (and downfall) was merely related to his sexual/religious practices and the conservative mentality of the Romans. The few mentions of his actual crimes (murders, desecrations, rapes..) are few and far between, when the accounts of his cruelty (or at least, most of them) are consistent in easily-available historic sources... Elagabalus' tyranny is certainly not a matter of "gender issues". I propose that someone -I might do it myself if no-one else comes up, it's not too hard- create a separate sub-section about his crimes -as opposed to his sexual and religious practices-, with proper citation from the historic sources, or that at least mentions the accounts thereof. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 12:27, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- The Romans thought about sexuality quite differently than we do in modern times. It was expected that an adult man would be attracted to both women and boys, but considered shameful and grossly inappropriate for a man to play a submissive "female" role. If an emperor kept a catamite, the moralists might complain that he was "overly given to pleasure seeking." But he would not be considered a freak the way Elagabalus was. Elagabalus wanted a sex change operation, although such a thing was not possible at the time. So we may consider him a transsexual who lived before this concept existed. Kauffner (talk) 08:23, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
Nor yet is it possible now. E.'s proposal to cut himself an artificial vagina was no different in principle to what is done now, the surgery is just a little more detailed. All people are doing is using radical surgery to kid themselves; they still have the same XY or XX chromosome and they are still just mutilated men(or women). So there is no need to change the article. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 09:00, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
In response to the above, how embarrassing. Please at least skim http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency and educate yourself about mythical "XX" and "XY" chromosomes. It's fake outdated science designed to support a social structure that has never occurred naturally in human birth. Ever. Calling trans people "mutilated men (or women)" is hate speech and I am shocked to see wiki editors not calling you out for it. 220.127.116.11 (talk) 04:57, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
- Kaufner, it certainly was not "expected" of men to be attracted to both women and boys. It was merely considered acceptable behaviour. As for the rest of this thread, Elagabalus was probably "bisexual" - to use a modern term - considering he probably would not have gone through the trouble of marrying a vestal virgin unless he genuinely wanted to.--Tataryn77 (talk) 05:55, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
There is absolutely no evidence that E. was born in Emesa. (Herodian, for one, implies Rome.) Birthplace: "Uncertain". There is also no evidence that E. spent his youth in Emesa rather than Rome or thereabouts. There is absolutely no evidence that he was not the natural son of Caracalla, so "falsely" should be removed. There's a contradiction in "Avitus adopted the name of his god" and that he "was called Elagabalus only after his death". "Ela Gabal" does not necessarily mean "The God of the Mountain". As Gibbon and others noted, it could mean "The God [literally, in Aramaic, "Mighty One"] of Creation," or "The Mighty One of Gabal" (i.e., Gebal or Byblos, the chief city of Phoenicia and of the god "El"). Emesenus (talk) 21:14, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
Raised his horse to office of Consul?
I have been reading through Israel Smith Clare's "Illustrated Universal History, a Clear and Concise History of All Nations, With a Full History of The United States to the Close of the First 100 Years of our National Independence. To Which is Added a History of Recent Important Events, Including the Turco-Russian War, the Administration of President Hayes, Etc." (The title is lengthy, I know) published in 1879 by J. C. McCurdy & Co. In the section on Heliogabalus (218-222 ad), it mentions his successfully raising his horse to the office of consul. Is this worth mentioning on this page and on the Roman Consul page under Caligula's failed attempt? Can anyone cross-reference this? Tongpu87 (talk) 10:01, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
- Must be a mistake. There is a complete list of consuls at List of Roman consuls. The ones for the relevant years look like the names of real people. Kauffner (talk) 10:45, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
I've made a number of edits in an effort to clarify and tighten up the prose while leaving the substance of the article pretty much unchanged.helio 07:15, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Misspellings of his name
There are several apparent misspellings of Heliogabalus (or Elagabalus) in the Elagabalus in later art section. Are these misspellings in the original titles of the various works, or should they be corrected? Anyone familiar with the work(s) in question should bring the spelling of his name in line with the rest of the article where appropriate.Prohairesius (talk) 03:36, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
"He also demonetized the antoninianus during this period in Rome." Please explain the meaning of the word "demonetized". Does it mean this coin (Antoninianus) was not coined anymore anywhere in the Roman empire after 219 ? If yes please say so. Not everbody knows the exact meaning of demonetized. Best regards 18.104.22.168 (talk) 14:25, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
Is this article still FA-worthy?
The article was promoted to FA in April 2005, and "kept" after a FAR in September 2007. To me, it does not seem remotely near FA quality at the moment. Here are some examples of areas of concern:
- There are various issues raised on this page concerning the article's accuracy (see, for example, "Flaws" and "Why is this buried?"). These issues do not seem to have been addressed.
- The article contains uncited material, some of which was in the "kept" version of September 2007, but standards have changed a lot since then. Some uncited stuff has been added, for example the long final paragraph in the "Edward Gibbon" section, although it refers to sources, has no specific citations.
- The prose is at times a bit careless. For example, is it appropriate to write of someone who died at 18: "In his youth he served as a priest..."? In the "Rise to power" section we have "Almost upon arrival in Syria she began a plot..." without saying who "she" was. In the "Family and priesthood" section I thought the information on the god Elagabulus unnecessary, and most confusing given the name duplication. In general, the prose is written in short, jerky paragraphs which make for awkward reading, and falls well short of being "engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard", as required by the featured article criteria.
- The "Elagabalus in later art" section is a ragbag of seemingly just about any book, poem, painting etc that refers to Elagabalus. A lot of this is trivia, for example the references to the "Horrible Histories" TV series. Most of the list has been added since September 2007, and there is no clear indication as to sourcing. There may be a case for a scaled-down list, with fully-sourced expert critical comment, but at present the section looks untidy and unconvincing.
Various editors have worked on the article recently, but there does not seem to be actual stewardship, designed to bring the article into line with the current featured article criteria. Is it possible that a knowledgeable editor, or group of editors, would be willing to take this on? The alternative, I fear, will be another visit to FAR. Brianboulton (talk) 16:59, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
- In response to your criticism I've corrected a couple of things, but only a couple since I don't find all of your points worth addressing. I agree, however, that the "Elagabalus in later art" section is undiscriminating and should be trimmed.Prohairesius (talk) 16:18, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Elagabalus in later art
I've edited this section with a view to omitting passing or otherwise trivial references to the emperor in the various media. Since I'm not acquainted with much of this art at first hand, of course I welcome others to correct my edits at their discretion.Prohairesius (talk) 03:35, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
Roman Dusk and Eliogabalus (the album) don't straight off impress me as serious artistic treatments of the figure of Elagabalus. The vampire novel seems marginal at best to the subject, mention of the album seems like a bit of commercial promotion. Neither, I think, merits inclusion in an encyclopedia article on the emperor. I'm not going to remove them, but more such "contributions" and we will be back to where we were a few months ago, when the Legacy section was an undiscriminating collection with entries whose connection to Elagabalus couldn't even be guessed at in some cases.Prohairesius (talk) 18:43, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
NAME OF EMPERORS
Everywhere in the article the name ELAGABALUS appears, because this name was popularized.
However, since Wikipedia aims to be a serious encyclopedia, should not the article be named ANTONINUS? And the lead be changed to "also known as Elagabalus" or, if you insist, "known as Elagabalus"?
And should not Caracalla and Caligula refer to articles bearing the ACTUAL NAMES?
Given that only these three emperors have nicknames as article names, and all the mass of the others are plainly called by their correct names? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 23:59, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
- In principle I agree that the name of the article should be changed to Antoninus, and that Caracalla's page be likewise changed. The problem is that they were both Marcus Aurelius Antoninus in their lifetimes. To avoid confusion they continue to be referred to as Elagabalus and Caracalla in contemporary discussions. Based on what I've read, the article on Caracalla could conceivably be renamed 'Bassianus'.Prohairesius (talk) 19:46, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
John Stuart Hay
He is not so easy to place (see s:Author talk:John Stuart Hay), but saying he was a don at Oxford seems to be a misconception. The title page to the book (s:The Amazing Emperor Heliogabalus) says "St John's College, Oxford" but does not claim to be a Fellow there. He was, as "J. Stuart Hay", a writer at that period for The New Age. This places him aside from academia. In any case I have removed "Oxford don" as unreferenced. I'm fairly certain that he graduated in 1902, became a Catholic priest in London, had second thoughts and hung around with the group around Orage and T. E. Hulme, wrote the book (1911), and then went back to Catholicism. Charles Matthews (talk) 07:25, 12 April 2015 (UTC)