Talk:Engine

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engine - disambiguation[edit]

morris da moose says this page sucks cause me spent like an hour searching for a pic of a car engine and not 1 found —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.169.87.243 (talk) 17:50, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Can someone explain the difference between a motor and an engine in the article? basilwhite 18:45 EST Feb 11, 2006

this should be a disambiguation page. strictly, an engine is a device that converts heat into work. new uses of the word are obviously quite different

Yes, please add a disambiguation page. Was just looking for a link for "engine" in the "video game engine"/software sense.

The Difference Between an Engine and a Motor[edit]

I have also been puzzled by the difference between an "engine" and a "motor." I think this is a question that is best answered by someone who has the credentials to do so, but I would like to provide two references and state my opinion on the subject.

Frederick J. Carranti, P.E. of Syracuse University posted a message defining the two terms. He defines a motor as a "device which converts electrical energy into mechanical energy." Then he goes on to define engine as a "device that converts chemical energy or heat energy into mechanical energy."

The Wikipedia Article on Internal combustion engines states that "although the terms sometimes cause confusion, there is no real difference between an 'engine' and a 'motor.'" That statement is not referenced, so personally I do not find that to be a credible source for information.

I have yet to find any source that defines the two terms opposite of the first source that I referenced, therefore I think the controversy is only whether or not there is a difference.

I think the first source defined the difference well and should be taken into account in the related Wikipedia articles on the subject. I would, however, like there to be a more stable reference that can be cited rather than just a forum post. SpikeBoy 06:06, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


An engine basically converts chemical energy (fuel) into kinetic energy. A motor does the opposite i.e. converts electrical energy into kinetic energy.

A generator set converts chemical energy (fuel) into kinetic energy then into electrical energy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 15.203.169.105 (talk) 17:22, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

What is a motor car? Dolphin51 (talk) 22:55, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Etymologically speaking, a "motor" is something that produces movement[1]—whereas an "engine" is a device.[2] For all intents and purposes, they are semantically equivalent (although an electric motor is usually implied by modern usage).[3]--Aaagmnr (talk) 04:30, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

References

Loose definition[edit]

"An engine is something that produces some effect from a given input." Sorry, "some effect"? Mechanical/Kinetic energy may fit better?

'modern' engines[edit]

This section is extremely skewed. After a huge time jump from the previous section, it briefly hints that other types of engine have existed and then goes on to the history of the internal combustion engine - which ought to be covered by internal combustion engine.

General[edit]

This should be the top-level article linking into the various types of steam engine, various types of ICE, and other engines, which surely include windmills, watermills, HEP turbines, etc, etc EdJogg 00:46, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Agree totally. And with removal of most of ICE stuff. Intro is horrible, Usage and Antiquity sections are on the right path. Someone get editing ! Jimbowley (talk) 18:58, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

An internal combustion engine is not a heat engine. They take in fuel and output work. Combustion of the fuel/air increases the temperature of the working fluid, not heat transfer. Heat engines take in heat and output work. For example, Stirling engines, steam engines and steam turbine (Rankine) cycles are heat engines. Heat engines can involve the burning of fuel or not. If fuel is burned it is strictly to create a hot medium which will then transfer heat into the heat engine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.12.147.25 (talk) 16:36, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Aircraft Engine[edit]

"Again an aircraft will have many motors installed for operation of its many auxiliary operations and services, but aircraft are propelled by engines, in this case, jet engines." This is not strictly accurate. Not all aircraft have multiple motors, not all even have an engine(s), as in the case of gliders and balloons. Also, not all aircraft that use an engine(s) use jet engines, as in the case of prop planes. If there is no objection in the next month or so I will remove the sentence. 67.160.147.2 (talk) 01:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

......A "turbo prop" IS a turbine powered aircraft engine. Everyone please remember, there IS a difference between a engine and a motor. Motors (with the exception of new brushless motors)have windings, commutator and brushes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.44.18.140 (talk) 00:38, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
Saying "IS" in all caps isn't an argument, it's just shouting. As has been sufficiently cited at Engine, some reliable sources say engine and motor are not the same, but other reliable sources do say, in spite of the chagrin it may cause, that an engine is a motor and a motor is an engine. No matter how much one group or another wants to prescribe politically correct (or scientifically correct or engineeringly correct) language, the rest of the world is not obligated to fall into line. People misuse words, and those who would punish them for it aren't always able to do so.

A Wikipedia article that fails to inform readers that some sources don't use a technical term in the way that a certain group of engineers approves of is concealing true information simply because a group doesn't like it. As a matter of policy, Wikipedia is not censored. See also Linguistic prescription, Political correctness, etc. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 01:55, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Text moved from Drive shaft article.[edit]

I removed this sentenct from the lead paragraph of the Drive shaft article: "Most engines or motors deliver power as torque through rotary motion: this is extracted from the linear motion of pistons in a reciprocating engine; water driving a water wheel; or forced gas or water in a turbine." Rather than just destroying it, I'm placing it here in case anyone wants to merge it into this Engine article, where it may be more appropriate. -- Another Stickler (talk) 20:04, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Removal of 'coex' image[edit]

...because it is of a coffee machine, not an engine!! (Sorry, I hit return before edit summary was finished.) EdJogg (talk) 01:35, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

air breathing engines section[edit]

that section links to itself multiple times, it is redundant —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.17.212.38 (talk) 00:44, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Engine cooling[edit]

A new section should be added to the article called Engine cooling. I placed a link at the see also section, but this is not enough, it needs its own section in the article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.66.57.202 (talk) 16:52, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

And why? Seems to me that is a detail best covered on the page about the Internal combustion engine. This is a general page; I don't see any need to clutter it up with technical details, especially as the cooling system of an engine is really a separate system, not a part of the actual engine itself..45Colt 14:11, 8 February 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by .45Colt (talkcontribs)

Air quality[edit]

The ranges you can produce from a real engine are so vast why bother including statistics that are destined to be wrong? Emissions vary based on air fuel ratios, load, cyclinder geometry, catalytic converter, etc. etc. etc. I can pick a couple of the figures stated here as wrong straight away based on an emmisions test I got on my own car, the rest are arguable at best. Modern cars are very clean in comparison to a few decades ago, let's hear about all those technologies, not what a 5 litre V8 released in the 70's. And rather than a roundabout way of attributing global warming to engines, let's hear a real statistic about the conribution of private-owned automotive engines to the greenhouse effect, e.g. jackdiddlysquat% 192.198.151.37 (talk) 12:58, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Definition[edit]

I changed the definition to An engine is a generator that produces mechanical force and motion from another form of energy (eg a fuel source, compressed gas (eg air) or electricity). [1]It is also referred to as a prime mover.

A engine is a generator as seen at the generator article

This is more clear to understand and more accurate ? I'm guessing that a generator that generates mechanical force from another mechanical force or a fuel from a mechanical force (eg as with flowing water, ... as a power source) isn't called anything at all (weirdly enough). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.245.90.148 (talk) 08:46, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

In light to make the articles even more in line the definition could btw be changed to An engine or mechanical generator —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.245.90.148 (talk) 09:11, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Article needs almost a complete rewrite[edit]

The article seems to be mostly about internal combustion engines, but steam engines, electric motors, gas turbines (that are not necessarily driven by steam or internal combustion), external combustion engines are more where it needs to be. It needs to cover everything; it's not about horizontally opposed versus anything; that's in internal combustion.

It's just all wrong right now.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 03:35, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

It seems like you've done just that. Is it OK now? (The high level of vandalism means that I don't actively watch this page, and I haven't visited recently -- I've only looked briefly at the diffs since 22nd Sept, of which there are many(!), not the finished article.)
In November 09, you removed this section:
The term is used in computer science in "search engine", "3-D graphics game engine", "rendering engine" and "text-to-speech engine", even though these "engines" are not mechanical and cause no mechanical action (this usage may have been inspired by the "difference engine", an early mechanical computing device[citation needed]). EdJogg , — (continues after insertion below.)
No, because articles aren't defining terms, they're defining things. Wikipedia is not a dictionary.- Wolfkeeper 16:22, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Surely a search engine (eg) is a 'thing', albeit one in the strange world of software...? -- EdJogg (talk) 13:45, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
Yes, but is it the same kind of thing? The kind of thing we're covering in this article is something that turns some form of energy into motion. That's not what a search 'engine' does.
That's what I'm saying, just because they're referred to (in English, and not necessarily any other language) as 'engine', doesn't mean that they are engines in the sense of the article. That's the difference between a dictionary and an encyclopedia; a dictionary is specifically about the word itself and all that things that it refers to, an encyclopedia is about a thing or a single type of thing that a phrase refers to.- Wolfkeeper 14:54, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
I would have thought that use of the word 'engine' in these instances warranted a mention here. (Also, how does the word 'engineer' relate?) -- EdJogg (talk) 12:57, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
It's normally OK to mention it, but you shouldn't cover it, not even in subarticle summary format.- Wolfkeeper 14:54, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia already has numerous articles about engines that are not heat engines, such as search engines and other computer software. They are all listed at Engine (disambiguation). There is no need to turn the primary article on Engine into another disambiguation page. Dolphin (t) 23:58, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Misuse of sources[edit]

This article has been edited by a user who is known to have misused sources to unduly promote certain views (see WP:Jagged 85 cleanup). Examination of the sources used by this editor often reveals that the sources have been selectively interpreted or blatantly misrepresented, going beyond any reasonable interpretation of the authors' intent.

Please help by viewing the entry for this article shown at the cleanup page, and check the edits to ensure that any claims are valid, and that any references do in fact verify what is claimed. Tobby72 (talk) 08:42, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Rockets![edit]

All well and good, but a liquid rocket is powered by engines and a solid rocket is powered by motors. As both are doing exactly the same thing (providing motive force to a vehicle) in pretty much the same way (converting chemical energy into kinetic energy), this begs the question as to whether you guys have difinitively resolved the engine vs. motor thingie. In 30 years as a combustion engineer (including solid rockets, gas turbines, and diesels), I never bothered to resolve this question, heard anyone explain it, or even ask someone (like a professor), but I suspect it may have something to do with thermodynamic cycles. Engines generally are following one (diesel engines, gas turbines, liquid rockets, etc.), while motors don't (solid rockets, electic motors, etc.) - just a thought. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.158.61.139 (talk) 20:54, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

"Motor"?[edit]

Why does the word "motor" link to here? An engine is different from a motor. Whether it's a stub or not, there needs to be a separate article for a motor. The two can not be interchangeable here, and it is incorrect usage of terminology. ForestAngel (talk) 11:04, 12 February 2011 (UTC) 11:03, 12 February 2011 (UTC)


I went ahead and removed the redirect and created a page distinctly for motor. It's pretty empty, but hopefully, for the time being, it can exist to create the distinction and quell confusion between an "engine" and a "motor."--JC Berger (talk) 22:18, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

You need to get agreement here before splitting the article.Embrittled (talk) 01:31, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
It's too pedantic a distinction for an encyclopedia. Wikipedia should not say it's wrong to call an engine a motor. Because it's not wrong; it's perfectly correct English. Redirect Motor here and stick one line in Engine somewhere saying in some highly formal circumstances the distinction between motor and engine is considered important. Like maybe on an exam or something you'd get a point taken off. Who else cares? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 02:13, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Oxford English Dictionary article: 'engine'[edit]

Just found an interesting (recent) article at the Oxford English Dictionary site about the evolution of the word 'engine':

Link: Aspects of English --> Word Stories --> "engine"

It may help further shape this article. (Not by me, though, this time I'm just passing through...) -- EdJogg (talk) 22:45, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree, that's some interesting stuff. I'd like to see something about that on here as well; I think it's relevant to the topic. Only I'm not much of an editor, and I don't know if that is considered reference material or not. Seems legit to me..45Colt 14:02, 8 February 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by .45Colt (talkcontribs)

magnetic engines[edit]

overunity motors via youtube

magnetic motors

magnetic engines

magnetic generators

Don548 (talk) 18:11, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Don't even think about adding such crackpot pseudo science anywhere that isn't clearly labelled as a wiki pseudoscience zone. They do not belong anywhere near this article. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:28, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
Actually, they are engines/motors in the sense that they use the potential energy of the magnets to move a bit, move a bit to the point where they come to a complete and total halt ;-). It would probably be a learning point for the readers to actually include them; they might learn something (like why they don't do anything useful).Rememberway (talk) 18:50, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
No, they are nothing of the sort. Don548's links are describing "free energy" or "overunity" motors. These are not some mere "stored energy" device (we should probably have an article on rubberband motor after all), they are fraudulent attempts to claim a fantastical device exists, when it clearly does not. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:55, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
No, they are stored energy devices, not overunity. The guy running the video usually charges them up with their hand... and then they do something as the magnets get on average closer together.Rememberway (talk) 21:07, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
And they're not usually fraudulent, just totally clueless ;-) These kinds of videos are so funny. I often watch them just for a laugh. "all I have to do is put an electromagnet..." ... um no?Rememberway (talk) 21:07, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
But seriously, I think that the Wikipedia has a duty to point them to where they can best get a clue. We are supposed to be a educational and reference tool after all.Rememberway (talk) 21:07, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
I agree that debunking fakery is within the encyclopedic scope. However this has to be done clearly as such, so it should take place in articles that are clearly about that, nothing else. We shouldn't mix it in with articles on real engines or motors. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:10, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
We just need to stick to reliable sources and NPOV. I must admit I don't know of any reliable source treatment of it, but there may well be.Rememberway (talk) 22:20, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Clarify combustion efficiency section[edit]

It sounds like the combustion efficiency section is referring to the early 20th century, when four cylinders had about 40 hp and V-8s had what? The 1930s Ford flathead V8 engine had about 65 hp. It doesn't make sense to compare 1920-1930 40 hp I4s with 1960s and later 250-450 hp V-8s. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:56, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually, typical European small cars did have that sort of power in the 1960's. A VW Beetle had a 36hp engine. A Mini had about the same. Perhaps some were making more, but even sports cars rarely broke 100hp back then. I suppose 60hp is a more realistic number on average. Only expensive and/or large cars had more power. But, during this period there were lots of American 2-barrel V8's making only about 150hp, and there were also lots of straight-six powered cars sold in the US that often fell under or around 100hp. I agree that this sentence is generalizing and misleading. MOST cars sold in the US were not hi-po versions. .45Colt 13:58, 8 February 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by .45Colt (talkcontribs)

Motors aren't always electrical.[edit]

I know this has been hashed over ten thousand times, but the sentence saying " An engine is a device that burns or otherwise consumes fuel, changing its chemical composition, whereas a motor is a device driven by electricity, which does not change the chemical composition of its energy source" is wrong. A motor does NOT have to be driven by electricity, hence "pneumatic motor", etc. Perhaps a motor is a device that converts energy into motion, but it does not have to be powered by electricity. And just as my two cents, I subscribe to the school of thought that says a motor is something that powers or imparts motion, while an engine is something that converts heat into work. Therefore, a an engine is a type of motor, but a motor is not an engine. .45Colt 13:53, 8 February 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by .45Colt (talkcontribs)

I have been editing this article for some time now and am currently attempting to clean it up: indeed, among the most teething problems are that it covers combustion engines too deeply and often repeats content in certain areas. I am open to suggestions and would not mind some help with areas concerning engines other than petrol engines. Hayazin (talk) 23:15, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Persistent vandalism[edit]

I know security is not Wikipedia's issue, but has anyone noticed the amount of anonymous vandalism constantly occurring on this page and how many edits are constantly reverted either by registered users or by ClueBot? Maybe it's the wrong page on which to talk about this subject, but it's been disturbing me. I started some months ago a personal effort to give this page some new life, and it's been only preserved. And if it occurs on this page, it can certainly spread to more vital articles.

Just felt like I had to say it. Hayazin (talk) 22:36, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Broad scope articles like "engine" or "steam locomotive" don't work under WP's "everyone can edit" model. Stop worrying about it, you'll go mad otherwise. Also no-one needs an article on "engines", everyone knows what they are already (and Randy keeps telling us this). Work on the questions that need answering instead. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:59, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
As long as it is easy for anyone to edit articles, there will be people who vandalise articles. Disenfranchised people use vandalism as a way to say "Take notice of me, I exist!" This is human nature. We can't solve all the world's issues, so we just keep cleaning up our corner of the world and get on with life.  Stepho  talk  10:30, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment[edit]

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Engine/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

The definition of engine presently in wikipedia represents a cultural bias toward perception of an engine as a mechanical device that imparts motion. In essence an engine is a product of our genious, a devising of our ingenuity. It can perform any function, a microscope, a mathematical process for detecting significant data among raw data, a software graphics engine. Examples can be found in the Oxford dictionary.

A motor is an engine that imparts motion.

Noel Fuller

123.100.105.241 (talk) 00:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 00:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 14:30, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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can anyone clarify[edit]

engine (disambiguation) states An engine is a device that converts potential energy into mechanical work.

however, this article says

Motor and engine later came to be used largely interchangeably in casual discourse. However, technically, the two words have different meanings. An engine is a device that burns or otherwise consumes fuel, changing its chemical composition, whereas a motor is a device driven by electricity, air, or hydraulic pressure, which does not change the chemical composition of its energy source.[4] However, rocketry uses the term rocket motor, even though they consume fuel.

as I read this I think of the context of a gravity battery driving an electric motor

should the description in engine (disambiguation) be made more specific?

My intuition is that wikipedia would be better off with *all* 'overloaded' words being a disambiguation page, to force users to think twice about what context they really mean (engine (motor), whatever..)

MfortyoneA (talk) 07:44, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

This is an urban legend. The overwhelming majority of sources say that motor and engine are interchangeable. These claims "technically, the two words have different meanings" are copiously lacking in sources. The weasel word "technically" is a red flag. "Technically" in what field? Physics? Law? The reason scolds get so angry when you "misuse" engine and motor is that they don't have a case. They lack sources and they know it. I would challenge anyone to show widespread sourcing for the definitions "A motor is a mechanical or electrical device that creates motion" and "An engine is a device that converts potential energy into mechanical work." Any reliable dictionary will tell you that both engine and motor mean any kind of device that converts any form of energy into work or motion. All these pages, engine, engine (disambiguation) and motor (disambiguation) should be changed to respect the sources, and remove the unsourced opinions and original research. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:06, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
One thing I can say is that 'motor' makes me initially think of vehicles, whereas the word 'engine' seems equally applicable in static installations. but again I don't have any precise definition. of course a 3d printer (and plenty of industrial equipment) would have 'electric motors' aswell. hmmm. MfortyoneA (talk) 16:15, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
What difference does it make what anyone "thinks of"? Look at the sources. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:27, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
What somebody thinks is not useful as a definition in the article. However, common perceptions and misconceptions are very useful in discussions about the article so that we know how to present the definition.  Stepho  talk  04:33, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Some dictionary definitions:

Major dictionaries seem to agree that 'motor' and 'engine' are the same thing. Counter examples are, of course, welcome. I suspect the split came about when hybrids became popular. The internal combustion engine was sometimes called a motor and sometimes an engine depending on where you live. Electric motors were always called motors. So it makes sense to keep calling the electric motor as the motor and then force the oily part to take the other choice - engine. My 3¢ worth of armchair etymology.  Stepho  talk  04:33, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

I amended the offending explanation on the disambiguation page. It now better matches what is stated at Engine. See my diff. Dolphin (t) 13:08, 24 September 2017 (UTC)