Talk:England

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Coat of Arms of England[edit]

The official website of the British monarchy states that: "In the design the shield shows the various Royal emblems of different parts of the United Kingdom: the three lions of England in the first and fourth quarters, the lion of Scotland in the second and the harp of Ireland in the third." This means that we should add the Three Lions as the Royal Emblem of England. Source: http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/Symbols/Coatsofarms.aspx Regards, --Ransewiki (talk) 11:16, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

This article concerns a country. The arms are those of the monarch of that country, not of the country. Mutt Lunker (talk) 12:17, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
Kingdoms and other monarchies almost always use the coat of arms of the monarch as their coat of arms. Just look at Sweden, Denmark or the UK itself. The coat of arms of UK belong to the monarch. --Ransewiki (talk) 12:20, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
It may well be that Wikipedia is making errors with regards to Sweden and Denmark or even that their constitutions are different. Countries do not all have the same relationships with their monarchs and often take pride in their particular constitutional histories (comparing, for example, Magna Carta or the Glorious Revolution with "L'état c'est moi"). But regarding England and the UK, the very page you cite above begins emphatically, "The function of the Royal coat of arms is to identify the person who is Head of State. In respect of the United Kingdom, the Royal arms are borne only by the Sovereign." NebY (talk) 13:10, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
Well why is the British monarchs coat of arms used as the UK's coat of arms in many places like the UK's Wikipedia page?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ransewiki (talkcontribs) 13:39, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
Because there's reliable sources that claim it is also the arms of the United Kingdom. Further, there's no monarch of England. England isn't a state. Rob984 (talk) 17:23, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
The page clearly says that the Three Lions represent England (as a country) currently (not any English monarch, as England is not a sovereign state currently). And you can't argue that only sovereign states have coat of arms, also subdivisions (and many, many other things) like the Regions of France (See: Gallery of French coats of arms or the German states (see: Coats of arms of German states, even Scotland has its own coat of arms listed on its Wikipedia page. One could also argue that the Three lions are de facto England's coat of arms, as they are used by almost all sports teams of England/governing bodies of English sport, like the FA (football association) uses it, the ECB uses it (English Cricket Board), and so on. It's probably the most important English symbol, after the flag. However the Three Lions are clearly the "Royal Emblem" of England as stated on the monarchys website. Quote from the website: "In the design the shield shows the various Royal emblems of different parts of the United Kingdom: the three lions of England in the first and fourth quarters, the lion of Scotland in the second and the harp of Ireland in the third." The Royal coat of arms of the UK might represent the sovereign, but as England doesn't have a monarch currently, because it is not a sovereign state. The page doesn't say that the "Royal Emblems" of the Countries of UK are individually any monarchs coat of arms (even if they are quartered in the monarchs coat of arms). It clearly says: "In the design the shield shows the various Royal emblems of different parts of the United Kingdom: the three lions of England in the first and fourth quarters,...". The THREE LIONS OF ENGLAND! That is quite a clear message. And you CANNOT argue that the Official Website of the British Monarchy is not an reliable source, HM is this countrys sovereign and holds the sovereignty of UK. She is de jure also the head of government and the www.Royal.Gov.UK is an official government website. PLEASE READ THE HOLE TEXT, Regards Ransewiki (talk) 18:49, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
Yes, the three lions represent England. But you have no source claiming that Royal Banner of England represents contemporary England. Three lions ≠ banner. The banner is derived from the three lions. It is not the three lions. By your logic, we could add a random flag with a Tudor rose on it simply because the Tudor rose represents England. Rob984 (talk) 19:15, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
Nope the page clearly says that the Three Lions ARE the "Royal Emblem". Many countries use emblems in place of coats of arms like India. We don't need to necesserily put the Royal Banner there, just some version of the Three Lions appearing on the current UK coat of arms. Ransewiki (talk) 20:21, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
"To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented". – WP:NOR. You need a source which directly supports the materiel you are adding. 'some version' of your choice is not acceptable. Rob984 (talk) 09:56, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi Ransewiki, rest assured I've already been down this road with Rob. His unhealthy obsession with degrading England to nothing more than a county is the reason for his rejection of what is overwhelming evidence of the three lions as the cultural AND official icon of England. - H (talk) 17:37, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

His strategy seems to be to go on arguing for so long in the face of all logic and reason that his opponents eventually lose the will to carry on and give up. He can stretch out what should be a short discussion to pages and pages of utter nonsense. Just a moment ago I showed him a source which described the arms of England as three lions, and in response he said it wasn't valid since it used the word 'royal bearing' instead of 'arms'. Zacwill16 (talk) 19:47, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Personally, I'd say that the Royal Banner of England, which isn't just the three lions, deserves a place on this page. It is one of the national symbols of England and is instantly recognisable by most people. The lions on their own have a strong case. They are on UK currency, UK sport team crests, they have been on UK stamps. Also the royal banner doesn't have to "represent contemporary England" to be shown on this page. It has hugely strong links to England and therefore should be on here. The Royal Arms of England page, which is classed a good article, states that the arms have come to represent England. I think this version should be shown here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Arms_of_England/File:Royal_Standard_of_England_(1406-1603).svg. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SamWilson989 (talkcontribs) 20:34, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Given that we are all in agreement and that, for the most part (if not in every instance) consensus is against Rob, shouldn't we go ahead and add it back in? As Zacwill states, there isn't much good arguing with someone who won't be reasoned with - H (talk) 16:46, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

"we are all in agreement"? Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:36, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Well, I'm in agreement with you. I'm just not in agreement with HWallis1993, not with their personal attacks on Rob984, not with their unsourced arguments, and not with their equally unfounded suggestion that we're all in agreement. NebY (talk) 18:38, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

My mistake, I was addressing the most recent commenters. In no sense do I agree with either of you, at all. - H (talk) 23:02, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

  • Having noted this issue had cropped up again I thought it time to find an answer from a reliable source. As the definitive source for any coat of arms in the UK is the Collage of Arms I asked them. Although it may be classed as OR this is the reply I received:-
'"Thank you for your enquiry to the College of Arms, which has come to me as officer in waiting at the time of its arrival.
The coat of arms of the kingdom of England (a red shield with three gold lions passant guardant) can be seen in the first and fourth quarters of the Royal arms of the UK. It does not really have any independent life now though it is a protected emblem. From the 14th century it has always been borne in combination with other coats of arms: those of France, Scotland, Ireland and various European realms reflecting the other nations ruled by our monarchs. However a coat of arms is not really available for general use and it is restricted to Crown or government bodies, with permission to do so.
The Royal badge for England is a crowned Tudor rose. However, like the coat of arms, it belongs to the Crown and it will ony be appropriately used by Crown or government bodies in relation to England, with permission.
National flags began as heraldic badges of the monarch but have in a sense been cleared for general use which is why people can use them without permission: the English national flag is of course the red cross of St George on a white field.
Beyond the flag, other symbols have been used from time to time but they are not official in nature and usually have some drawback. An uncrowned lion is sometimes used for England, sometimes for the UK; since a lion appears in the arms of Scotland and those of the medieval Princes of Wales it is not very specific. An uncrowned red rose is used by the English rugby team but again lacks specificity and could be taken as a red rose of Lancaster (though this is in fact another Royal badge).
The clearest and simplest option is the flag 'of St George', the red cross on a white field.
I hope that this helps answer your question but please do not hesitate to ask if I can clarify further.
Yours sincerely,
C. E. A. Cheesman, MA, PhD, FSA
Richmond Herald
College of Arms"
Richard Harvey (talk) 09:43, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, however, there is no issue content issue. Just an editor or two with a lack of understanding of Wikipedia policy. specifically, WP:NOR. Regards, Rob984 (talk) 16:06, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Newly-added "-speaking countries and territories" cats[edit]

In what terms is the inclusion of this article in the categories "Irish-", "Cornish-" and "Welsh-speaking countries and territories" "especially relevant to the article"? Aside from the fact that all of these cats are up for discussion per WP:SMALLCAT only one of these categories, Cornish, could (and let's not go there) be reasonably be described as native to England but even there it is almost entirely specific to Cornwall alone (0.1% of the population according to the article; what is it for England as a whole?). Regarding the category itself, this would seem to be the least useful as it consists of set (UK), a subset thereof (England) and a subset thereof again (Cornwall), with essentially all speakers in the latter, making the former two redundant. That Wales and Ireland adjoin or are close-by seems insufficient rationale for the inclusion of non-native to England Welsh and Irish and again, the numbers are small. Should we advocate the addition of "Scottish Gaelic-", "Manx-", "Scots-", "Sercquiais-", "French-", "Dutch-" categories on this basis, some similarly tiny in terms of number in England, some probably very much greater? In terms of number there are many languages with a significant number of speakers and close historical ties, so no less relevant: Punjabi, Hindi, Cantonese etc.. There is nothing particularly special or relevant about the recent additions. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:12, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Computer & IT Revolution[edit]

My edit [[1]] has been deleted on the grounds 'Not appropriate for that section' which seems extraordinary considering that the new edit is highly relative and appropriate following on from the citations referring to the transition to a Industrial society. Currently, the lede brakes to a sudden halt at England's Industrial Revolution; why just that in the opening paragraph? With respect the revert suggests that England came to an abrupt scientific and cultural halt in 1760. Also, my edit was reverted because.....of a Wiki page that doesn't seem to exist. As a result I will leave the article as it is for a few days giving the editor who reverted time to form a response. Twobellst@lk 18:49, 10 April 2015 (UTC)