# Talk:Enneagram (geometry)

## Number Games

Having read the above (and the "Introduction to N-Grams" link), I think it would be of interest to add a section about the numerical oddities of the Enneagram. The "repeating decimal" bit is good, but it doesn't capture the strangeness of the 142857 sequence. A simple illustration would be to show how the number sequence "rotates" as it's added to itself, while retaining its "direction of disintegration":

142857 x 1 = 142857
142857 x 2 = 285714
142857 x 3 = 428571
142857 x 4 = 571428
142857 x 5 = 714285
142857 x 6 = 857142
142857 x 7 = 999999

The 9,3,6 triangle doesn't have this quality, of course.

The link mentions other numeric bases, but doesn't mention the fun one, which is base-12. In base-12, both series do the trick (A=decimal 10, B=decimal 11).

186A35 x 1 = 186A35
186A35 x 2 = 35186A
186A35 x 3 = 5186A3
186A35 x 4 = 6A3518
186A35 x 5 = 86A351
186A35 x 6 = A35186
186A35 x 7 = BBBBB (the equivalent of “all nines” in base-10).

2497 x 1 = 2497
2497 x 2 = 4972
2497 x 3 = 7249
2497 x 4 = 9724
2497 x 5 = BBBB

And, satisfyingly, 2, 4, 9, and 7 are the digits that don't appear in the first series. The resulting figuire would look like this:

## wikify

I've attempted to remove redundancy (eg stuff which is on Gurdieff page) and to tighten up the explanation. I've begun to put stuff in the footnotes using the ref tag. Mccready 08:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

## The Irregular Hexagon

The irregular hexagon of 1-4-2-8-5-7-1 follows the layout of the Unicursal Hexagram of the Ordo Templi Orientis, though it has been shifted. Given references by Gurdjieff to a mixing of ways and symbols in the creation of the Enneagram, this may be the origin of this aspect of the Enneagram symbol (while not taking away from the 1/7 or other numeric representations) - or vice versa, I don't know.

A 14Kb visual demonstration of this is available here: http://img421.imageshack.us/img421/7482/centralpoint9zo.gif --Formerly the IP-address 24.22.227.53

## History missing

Hi, can someone add a History section? Who invented it? And when? And how? -- Barrylb 01:12, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Reply: There was a history section but somebody erased it for no good reason!

I too think this is essential, as neither dictionary nor encyclopedia have it before 1965, apart from the Egyptian Ennead, which isn't mentioned here, and is the family of gods which includes Osiris and Isis which may or may not overlap the nine types. I went to archive.org and there isn't anything of the old history section. Looking up the data from Google, I came across the first school of Arica being opened in 1971 by the man born in 1931, so this is pretty new. Mentioning Jesuits in the context of Enneagrams has to be considered misleading. Links to the other personality classification types might be worthwhile in context, as well as historically.

Reply: The personality system of nine types is very old, and was referenced in The Iliad and The Odyssey, revealing the personality types forward in the first, and backward in the second. For any student of the enneagram who doesn't want to read those works, it is obvious watching the recent film O Brother Where Art Thou, which is based upon The Odyssey, that the nine personality types are all represented there, though not in order.

Humans are body, soul and spirit. The soul is mind, will and emotion. Three of the enneagram types are oriented around the will, three around the mind, and three around the heart, or emotion. [submitted by Cynthia J. Pirl December 2006]

I just came across this quote from Richard Rohr's book Everything Belongs [The Crossroad Publishing Company], p. 94:
" Many people condemn the Ennegram because they say it is from the Sufis (which it isn't).*", and the footnoted reference: Richard Rohr, Enneagram: A Christian Perspective (New York, Crossroad, 2001).
Perhaps someone could take a look at this book by Rohr? I think it might be an interesting addition to the discussion.
That discussion is 6 months old. If you believe that something is really relevant to the article and is sourced, then add it. And who is Rohr? Aeuio 16:13, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

One known source of the "personality enneagram" is Ramon Lull. But the enneagram according to Gurdjieff was meant to be top secret oral transmission stuff until he went public. See my site; www.geocities.com/jesstraveller.geo (you will find more "authoritative" links there!) Jeremytrewindixon 04:11, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

The "fourth way" enneagram as we have it was first published in Ouspesky's In Search of the Miraculous published in 1950 from memory though I'd have to check. It any rate Gurdjieff is quoted in that book as saying that the enneagram in this form had never before been published (he was speaking to his groups in Russia during world war one.) However the "three triangle" enneagram was long known and has featured from time to time in esoterica. See Webb's discussion in The Harmonious Circle. Webb made an argument that the enneagram (both 4th way and 3 triangle) was an alternative glyph of the Tree of Life of Kabbalah, and discounted the theory of Sufi origin. Webb also looks at Lull's enneagram although from memory he misses the crucial point that Lull's "Nine deadly Sins" are identical to the sin types used by personality enneagram theorists, Jesuits in particular. After some checking I'll add this to the aritcle. Jeremytrewindixon 00:42, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

## Inappropriate Promotion

Could editors of this article please refrain from using it to promote particular Enneagram teachers, organisations, products etc. This is very inappropriate!

Hello,

I must say I am shocked that the article does not mention Ichazo. Although there are issues with Ichazo and the Arica school, if you read the Gurdjieff material, especially the writings of Maurice Nicoll, there is no description of the enneagram in the matter it is typically presented in the 'modern' enneagram books. The modern enneagram books are a derrivative of the Ichazon ego descriptions with some additional material. I would say the Wikipedia article is a promotion and not accurate. (btw I am not a 'follower' of Ichazo)

Sounds like you know something of the matter, why don't you update the article? Also, what are you saying this article is promoting? --Chinawhitecotton 02:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I did do the Arica work mostly in the 70s when there were no enneagram books and all that (I am not involved with them now and do not care to defend or accuse them). In the article, for example, the person who wrote it uses the psychic catalyzers - Holy perfection holy will, holy harmony, holy orgin, etc. These things were presented in the Aria material before any of these enneagram authors and books. If you look at the references to the Gurdjieff material (presented in this article) this kind of material is not presented. Since the main author of this material is not even acknoledged, it leaves me speechless. What's the use in getting into a pointless argument other than to say that this kind of disrepect for the origins of this theory undermines the approach that people take subsequently.

The history presented from the enneagram institute presents an accurate picture - http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/history.asp.

## Fact tags

I found the following source for the "companies which use the Enneagram" comment, any thoughts on whether it's acceptable? [1] (scroll down to question #6) Perel 02:42, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

## NPOV

This article appears to be written from the point of view that the enneagram concepts are valid and widely accepted; I believe that it needs substantial editing to conform with Wikipedia's NPOV policy. -- The Anome 13:30, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what exactly you are referring to - The concepts of the Eanneagram of Personality, or the concepts of Gurdjieff's Enneagram. If you found some critics on Gurdjieff's enneagram, feel free to add them, or even show me and then when I have time I will add them. If there isn't any intellectual criticism, then I'll move that NPOV tag down to the Enneagram of personality (since I am not familiar with the Enneagram of Personality I can't speak on behalf of the subject.)Aeuio 21:21, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

## Could we use a seperate article?

Hi, I was just finding out about circles, and I find the page for Enneagram in the geometric sense is in the same article as this stuff about Personality and Psycology. I think a seperate article is needed, at least until all this controversy about neutrality is sorted out. Keshidragon 19:18, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, the shapes bit in the middle doesn't relate to the rest of the article. Is there another article about geometric 9 sided things or something that it could go in?Merkinsmum 01:18, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
On the contrary, the geometry of the enneagram completely relates and has everything to do with Gurdjieff's teachings (Although this connection is poorly described in this article and I'll expand it later). But, you do have a good point, and if you wish to create a separate article solely on the geometry of the enneagram, then something similar to the what I did "See also: Enneagram of Process" could be made. Aeuio 04:09, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

## Socratesreplies edits

### 1

"It should be noted that these writers, particulalry Ouspensky, have claimed Gurdjief's works to be completely original but all of Gurdjief's ideas have been shown to a rehash of ideas from other traditions."

What do you mean completely original? He never claimed to have invented it. What part of "going through Asia and other continents for 30 years and gathering knowledge" don't you understand? Where he got most of his ideas is mentioned in his books. (And a "genius" thing to say after the made up "evidence" you provided):

### 2

"The "law of three, which he calls the sacred Law of Triamazikamno, is the same as the Stoic Law of Causation as presented by the Stoic, Posidonius."

Not only is it not the same, but Gurdjieff even attributed this law to ancient religions where it was expressed in the Holy Prayer - and therefore he never claimed it as original.(Out of Gurdjieff's enormous teaching, this is your best evidence point?)

### 3

"The concept that to obtain freedom by acknowledging and understanding the cosmic laws of the "Ray of Creation" (the law of seven) and the Law of Causation (the law of three, Triamazikamno)."

This is by far the most ridiculous thing you said. Where in the world did you find this nonsense? Not only is it not mentioned or claimed in ANY Gurdjieff related book, but you won't even find this claim on the wikipedia's Fourth Way, Laws, Ray of Creation, articles. PS. Why would you say that the Ray of Creation is the law of seven?

Its good to know that your source for Gurdjieff's teachings is one or another Enneagram of Personality book. (I wont even bother with your last sentence) Aeuio 01:51, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

## Nonagram merge

Nonagram is just a synonym for enneagram, and so nonagram should redirect to this page just like nonagon redirects to enneagon. /129.142.71.166 12:16, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

This is not really correct. A nonagram is composed of three triangles whilst the traditional enneagram figure is composed of a triangle and a hexagon. So although they are both 'enneagrams' in as much as they both have nine points they are by no means synonomous - especially in terms of the enneagram article. Ontologicos 13:22, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Ontologicos, its not synonomous. Aeuio 13:54, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I deleted the merger proposal.(unless someone has reason to object) Aeuio 02:45, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I think nonagram and enneagram are just two names of the 9-gram, a special case of a "polygram" [2]. If you see the article heptagram, you see that it mentions a Latin variant of the word, septegram. It should be the same in this case. The articles should be merged. The external example [3] shows that the term nonagram is not exclusively used for figures composed of three triangles. /84.238.113.244 (talk) 11:12, 16 March 2008 (UTC)