Talk:Entry of women to Sabarimala

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We should normally avoid naming individuals[edit]

WP:BLPNAME states:

"Caution should be applied when identifying individuals who are discussed primarily in terms of a single event. When the name of a private individual has not been widely disseminated or has been intentionally concealed, such as in certain court cases or occupations, it is often preferable to omit it, especially when doing so does not result in a significant loss of context. When deciding whether to include a name, its publication in secondary sources other than news media, such as scholarly journals or the work of recognized experts, should be afforded greater weight than the brief appearance of names in news stories. Consider whether the inclusion of names of living private individuals who are not directly involved in an article's topic adds significant value."

I can see that naming a journalist and possibly someone where we have an article on her, but the others, especially the one who has had to go into hiding, shouldn't be named and the encyclopedia doesn't gain by naming them. Doug Weller talk 14:41, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 3 January 2019[edit]

Cos DW sez ——SerialNumber54129 13:32, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Entry of women to Sabarimala Ayyappa Temple → Sabarimala – To bring it in line with the article Sabarimala - it doesn't seem as though the name of the temple complex actually has the name of the deity in it. I also note that a fine was levied for entering the complex if I understand the issue correctly, not just the temple. Doug Weller talk 08:36, 3 January 2019 (UTC) [reply]

Oppose -- The issue not just a fine levied upon anyone. And there is no fine for entering the temple complex. So I strongly oppose to move this complex issue to the original sabarimala page. This is an on going issue, protest, court judgement and so. The next hearing of this issue on supreem court of India will happen on 22nd Jan 2019. So this page have independent existance. And this page is not only describe about the place, temple, deity but all the incidents (harthals, protests, march, supreeme court ruling, police proceedings etc..) happening all over Kerala, infact outside Kerala also. --Ranjithsiji (talk) 09:45, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose -- The Sabarimala issue can be considered as a milestone on women rights[1][2][3]. The protests were conducted against the Supreme Court of India order to lift the ban on women of menstruating age. Even though the ban was lifted, some social and political organizations didn't allow women to enter Sabarimala Dharma Sastha Temple[4]. This entry by two women under police protection is after multiple failed attempts by Kerala police to help women enter the Temple after the court order. I hope this clears the misunderstanding. Also the name of the temple is now Sabarimala Sree Dharma Sastha Temple according to official sources[5]. -- Kannan Talk 09:58, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

For some reason I can't hat this without hatting the rest. @KannanVM and Ranjithsiji:, I've struck through your posts as they are replies to a suggestion I never meant to make. Could you please comment below instead. Doug Weller talk 10:25, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Sabarimala: Women defy historic temple ban". BBC. January 2, 2019. Retrieved January 3, 2019.
  2. ^ "Sabarimala temple: India's top court revokes ban on women". BBC. September 28, 2018. Retrieved January 3, 2019.
  3. ^ "Sabarimala Temple: India's Supreme Court lifts ban on women entering shrine". CNN. September 28, 2018. Retrieved January 3, 2019.
  4. ^ "Protests break out in India after two women enter temple". The Guardian. January 2, 2019. Retrieved January 3, 2019.
  5. ^ "Sabarimala Sree Dharma Sastha Temple". Sabarimala Sree Dharma Sastha Temple official website. Retrieved January 3, 2019. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |dead-url= (help)

Requested move 3 January 2019[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. Consensus is that since the temple is Sabarimala using just the more concise name here in this tile makes sense for consistency. Only objection seems to be an objection to using "Sabarimala" alone to refer to the temple in general, which may be presented at the temple's article's talk page. (non-admin closure) В²C ☎ 18:50, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Entry of women to Sabarimala Ayyappa Temple → Entry of women to Sabarimala – To bring it in line with the article Sabarimala - it doesn't seem as though the name of the temple complex actually has the name of the deity in it. I also note that a fine was levied for entering the complex if I understand the issue correctly, not just the temple. Doug Weller talk 10:19, 3 January 2019 (UTC)--Relisting. Dekimasuよ! 18:27, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support[edit]

  • Support - If Sabarimala is an acceptable title for the article on the temple, then it should be acceptable here too. The shorter the better. I could live with Entry of women to Sabarimala temple, if more detail is needed. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:49, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Sabarimala is commonly understood to be synonymous with the temple. (gnanvit (talk) 05:35, 21 January 2019 (UTC))[reply]

Oppose[edit]

  • Sabarimala is the name of hill on Periyar Tiger Reserve and temple name is now Sabarimala Sree Dharma Sastha Temple according to official sources[1].
  • There was no ban to hill, but only to temple. But that too lifted on Supreme Court of India Order[2].
  • There is no fine. Women were entering following the Supreme Court of India order to lift the ban on women of menstruating age[3].

-- Kannan Talk 10:33, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The issue not just a fine levied upon anyone. And there is no fine for entering the temple complex or the hill. So I strongly oppose to move this complex issue to the original sabarimala page the title to just sabarimala insted of the name of the temple. This is an on going issue, protest, court judgement and so. The next hearing of this issue on supreem court of India will happen on 22nd Jan 2019. So this page have independent existance. And this page is not only describe about the place, temple, deity but all the incidents (harthals, protests, march, supreeme court ruling, police proceedings etc..) happening all over Kerala, infact outside Kerala also. Also we can move this article to Entry of women to Sabarimala Sree Dharma Sastha Temple because the official wesbite[4][5][6][7][8][9] says so. --Ranjithsiji (talk) 10:41, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Sabarimala Sree Dharma Sastha Temple official website". Retrieved January 3, 2018. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |dead-url= (help)
  2. ^ "Sabarimala temple: India's top court revokes ban on women". BBC. September 28,2018. Retrieved January 3, 2018. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
  3. ^ "Protests break out in India after two women enter temple - Court ruling allows women to offer prayers in temple in Kerala after centuries-long ban". January 2, 2019. Retrieved January 3, 2019.
  4. ^ "Sabarimala Sree Dharma Sastha Temple official website". Retrieved January 3, 2018. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |dead-url= (help)
  5. ^ http://travancoredevaswomboard.org/administration/eosab/sab/sabarimala-sree-ayyappaswami-temple. Retrieved January 3, 2018. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |dead-url= (help); Missing or empty |title= (help)
  6. ^ https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/current-affairs/040118/sabarimala-temple-gets-a-new-name.html. Retrieved January 3, 2018. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |dead-url= (help); Missing or empty |title= (help)
  7. ^ https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/keralas-sabarimala-temple-be-officially-known-sree-ayyappa-swamy-temple-53192. Retrieved January 3, 2018. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |dead-url= (help); Missing or empty |title= (help)
  8. ^ http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bitstream/10603/168474/5/14_chapter5.pdf. Retrieved January 3, 2018. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |dead-url= (help); Missing or empty |title= (help)
  9. ^ https://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/afp/article-6547271/Indias-flashpoint-temple-limits-women.html. Retrieved January 3, 2018. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |dead-url= (help); Missing or empty |title= (help)

Discussion[edit]

Just a note on the name. As WP:COMMONNAME says, we don't always use the official name. As this is the English language Wiki, we use the most common name used in English language sources, and that's not the current full name. If you wish to change the name of the temple complex, Sabarimala is the place to do that first, not here. Doug Weller talk 10:32, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is no ban for anyone to enter into sabarimala hill. The ban is only to enter into the temple complex. Sabarimala and Sabarimala Ayyappa Temple are different things. Due to WP:COMMONNAME we cannot move the Sabarimala article name to Sabarimala Ayyappa Temple. But this issue is about Entry of women to Sabarimala Ayyappa Temple not on the hill. So if this move happens then there will be a good confusion about the temple and hill. Yes we can clear this doubt in the article also. --Ranjithsiji (talk) 10:57, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I've struck the fine, although that was not for entering the temple. It's clearly confusing people. There's no way a move to something matching the name Sabarimala is going to be confusing. I'm confused about the fact that this article calls it "Ayyappa" while others don't. Doug Weller talk 12:27, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Facts :- There is a collection of hills in Periyar tiger reserve, which is called Sabarimala Hills or Sabarimala. There is a temple in the middle of the hill which is Sabarimala Ayyappa Temple. To enter into the temple a devotee must follow a 41 day procdedure in his home. In this temple the entry of women with age in between 10 and 50 is banned by high court ruling from 1991. In 2018 supreeme court lift the ban. After this all the protest happened. There are other temples in Sabarimala also and where there is no ban. Which is Ganapathy temple, Malikappuram temple etc... These temples are not in the news because there is no protest. So the name of this article must stay in this name. Hope things are clear. --Ranjithsiji (talk) 12:47, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The official website does not determine the name of the article. Policy here is that we follow the most common usage in reliable English language sources. Doug Weller talk 12:30, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. It’s Sabarimala that needs to change, clear enough from the lede of that article, and sources agree. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:17, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • do you mean that that article should be renamed to its official name according to the board responsible for its administraion, "Sabarimala Sree Dharma Sastha Temple"?[1] Because that still wouldn't make this name correct, indeed it's clearly wrong. Doug Weller talk 10:29, 21 January 2019 (UTC) @SmokeyJoe and Ranjithsiji: Doug Weller talk 10:31, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • @KannanVM: we agree on the official name. What it isn't called is what you want to keep, Sabarimala Ayyappa Temple, which confuses me. Sabarimala Temple is an easier name and is used a lot in the media. It's not incorrect, it's just not the full name. Doug Weller talk 10:33, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Table of harthals in this article[edit]

@Doug Weller: What will happen to the references (News about each harthals in kerala) from various sources? Is a table is better representation of data than reading a prose of 500 words and extracting the information? Still the prose is not including the facts in the table. I strongly insist to reinclude the table with the refereces (in fact 23 different sources) and this very issue is very hot in Kerala. ("I can't understand why we have several paragraphs on hartals and then a table which lists some different ones." Your opinion) Because there are several Harthals originaly happening in Kerala based upon this issue. Hope you understand the importance. -- Ranjithsiji (talk) 09:35, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Doug Weller:Further more look at the article, just search the word Harthal. How many can you find in this article? But there are several harthals happening in Kerala. --Ranjithsiji (talk) 09:55, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Doug Weller:See this The party (BJP) called for a harthal, this issue is verymuch connected with Sabarimala.I can give you more sources, see these news 1,2,3,4,5 and you can realize that BJP called for that harthal. Also Harthals and Protests are different in Kerala --Ranjithsiji (talk) 10:26, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand your argument. If you are saying that there should be separate sections for protests in Kerala and those outside Kerala, that's fine. I have no argument over this or the sources (although they must make explicit the connection with Sabarimala, one of your sources explicitly denied the connection. And yes, prose can give more detail and finer nuances than a table. Doug Weller talk 10:28, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
OK fine. I am trying to start writing a long prose about six harthals happened in Kerala connected with this issue. Again need seperate sections for protests and harthals IN KERALA. Because protests and harthals are different ones. There are numerous protests in this issue at different parts of Kerala and six harthals. The source denied the connection becasue that was the fact. But the political party called a harthal upon the issue. Hope you will not request to start another article titled Harthals in Kerala connected with Entry of women to Sabarimala Ayyappa Temple.--Ranjithsiji (talk) 10:38, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Harthals are Region wise pre-announced protests conducted by political parties or organizations. Mostly not a local event, scales to state or National level. -- Kannan Talk 10:43, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Updated all the harthals in prose with some reference. Hope this helps. --Ranjithsiji (talk) 12:51, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note from RM closer[edit]

I think my close was a reasonable reading of consensus in the discussion above, but I just want to say that it may well be worth exploring the idea that both this article and the article on the temple (currently at Sabarimala) be moved to titles using the full "official" name of the temple. If anyone has a strong argument for that, I recommend proposing a multi-move RM (instructions at WP:RM) accordingly at Talk:Sabarimala. --В²C ☎ 18:58, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Confusing Title of this article[edit]

The title of this article is now confusing and against the facts due to the move of the title. There is no ban to enter anyone in Sabarimala Hill. And a ban was existed there in Enter into the TEMPLE in SABARIMALA Hill.[1] The current article title says there is ban to enter into this place. This is simply not acceptable. If any one can resolve this then that will be great. Otherwise the problem is for wikipedia. that is it. --Ranjithsiji (talk) 17:52, 30 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Supreme Court ends centuries-old ban on entry of women into Kerala's Sabarimala temple".

Again problem with temple and place Comment[edit]

Sabarimala is a hill and Sabarimala temple is a temple. The place is not a temple. There are lot of places like this in kerala. Chottanikkara, Ettumanoor, Guruvayur, Parassinikkadavu, Ambalappuzha etc. Again these article not confused with place and temple. So please dont revert this. -- Ranjithsiji (talk) 07:24, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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Why is title in italics[edit]

Why is title in italics ChandlerMinh (talk) 15:53, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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