Talk:Epirus

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Map game[edit]

There is no reason to add this map [[1]], since it concerns a quite wider region (the entire Balkans and not a tiny part of it -Epirus). Not to mention that such old stuff doesn't offer any trace of reliability, its simply one of many contradicting 19th era maps.Alexikoua (talk) 21:39, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

ok, if that map is unreliable or contradicting, every other map of the 19 century in the albanian or other balkan pages and topics, should be removed,(including the one who is at the moment in the page) but they are there because gives the audience an idea on how the ethnographic groups were perceived at the time.i added the map because a more neutral view is needed and at the time wasnt only the demographic map who is now in the page, there should be 2-3 demographic maps to give a better idea to the public.we dont know if actually the map of the page has actually the correct demographic, so i suggest we add this other one. the map was added days ago and noone said nothing nor removed it.RcLd-91 (talk) 22:39, 17 August 2014 (UTC)User:RcLd-91

To sum up: the article is about Epirus, not the Balkans, so geographically speaking this kind of maps are of no use for this article. An alternative option would be to present all 19th Balkans ethnological map (I can count more than 8 in commons), but that's not a solution.Alexikoua (talk) 13:10, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

For now I've added another map of the Balkans (although still unrelated to the subject of the article). Please avoid disruption in the lead, Albania was a newly established state in 1913, its declaration of Independence of signed that time (Nov.12 and recognition the next year).Alexikoua (talk) 13:37, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment- The text was saying after the world war 1, so of course it was wrong as albania existed before ww1.

And second albania was not estabilished in 1913, Albania was declared indipendendet in 1912, (independence meaning peoples of a nation are not governed by another country, but by themselfs) but the ethnonym albania has existed at least since the middle ages, from venice documents, and that was also the period the first albanian principalities were formed. I am just going to say pricipality of arbanon(first albanian state during the Middle Ages ), and League of Lezhe(the first unified Albanian state)).this things are accepted today.RcLd-91 (talk) 02:40, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Per Antidiskriminator, it sounds easy to understand that a state created in 1913 was considered as 'newly established' during the wwi era. To be precise, this is about the state, not the ethnic group, or any political entity created by the same ethnic group in the past.Alexikoua (talk) 14:26, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
To be completely precise, Albania as state did not exist before 1912/13. At very end of medieval times the term Albania was used as toponym and demonym. Different states which existed in medieval times in the geographical region referred to as Albania were not Albania nor they were nation states of Albanians who managed to fully ethnically possess the territory of Albania only after Ottomans captured it. The military alliance (League of Lezhe) established by noblemen from Albania and Zeta who were of Serb, Greek and Albanian origin was not "first albanian state during the Middle Ages" except in nationalistic mythology.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:57, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


Somebody, an entity of wikipedia should absolutely intervene here, who are you to say "nationalistic mythology" and why are you changing albanias history, albania whether you like it or not existed in the middle ages,its not good to have a moderator who has the slightest bias editing and creating the pages about albania here on wiki.its clearly stated that "arbanon" was the first albanian state during the medieval, and the league of lezhe was unification of albanian principalities, and if zeta was part of it, doesnt change anything, the leader was appointed skanderbeg.if serbia conquers albanian land today will it be called land of the "serbians and albanians" or will it be called just serbia?so when you say "fully ethnicly posses" it is not accurate,how many states we have today that dont "fully ethnicly posses" their lands??the albanian principalities had an albanian leader and ethnicity, and even if anyone of them didnt have an albanian ethnicity, they were ruled by albanian lords.Even if they were not ruled by albanian lords like Kingdom of Albania (medieval) they did have albanian language and were called albania. during that time it was normal that states and territories did not exist in the modern concept and albanians were not politicaly very powerful, however they did manage to create independent or autonomus principalities(inside or outside byzantine).arbanon means land of the arbanites(albanians) and principality of arbanon was the first albanian state (or indipendent ,autonomus) during the middle ages. Maybe someone else should intervene here,neutral, because might have importance even for the pages of history of albania during the middle ages.

If you want to talk about the toponym then we must say that albanopolis means city of albani, so as a toponym has existed since atiquity. In the modern concept of a state albania was formed in 1912 so at the text is wrong when it says after ww1, must be changed.RcLd-91 (talk) 01:14, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

  • It is not what I said. Robert Elsie said: Elsie, Robert (2010), "Turkey, relations with", Historical dictionary of Albania, Lanham: Scarecrow Press, p. 453, ISBN 978-0-8108-7380-3, OCLC 454375231, retrieved 16 August 2012, It was only during the Ottoman period that the Albanians took full ethnic possession of their country. Because Elsie benefited the positive image of Albania the President of Albania considered him "a good Albanian" and awarded him with the Medal of Gratitude in 2013.
  • Provinces of Byzantine, Serbian, Angevin, Venetian and Ottoman states in the geographical region of Albania (Kingdom of Albania (medieval), Albania Veneta, Sanjak of Albania...) mention geographical region of Albania in their names. That does not make them medieval state Albania.
  • Zeta was member of the military alliance established in town of Venetian Republic (Lezhe) by noblemen from Albania and Zeta who were of Serb, Greek and Albanian origin. This military alliance was not medieval state Albania. It did not even have Albania in its name. Majority of Zetan and Albanian noblemen who established this military alliance belonged to noble families who were not ethnic Albanians. The territory of Zeta (modern-day Montenegro) was bigger than minor part of the territory of Albania controlled by noble members of this military alliance. Therefore this military alliance was more Zetan/Montenegrin than Albanian, in terms of size of geographical region they controlled and its population.
  • Albanopolis is a good example here. This city was abandoned 1,000 years before first mention of Albanians. Just because Albanopolis contain "Alban" in its name does not mean it was medieval state Albania.
  • Don't "warn" people with someone's "intervention" here. That's simply pointless threatening, and is unlikely to lead to collegiate or positive results. You try sincerely to work things out, and if that fails you seek help, via ANI or another appropriate venue, but you don't threaten people. That shows a battleground mentality and casts doubts on your desire to actually work things out, as it reads as "my way or I'm telling!" Your behavior here has been less than exemplary. Be done with your hostile behavior, and try to AGF and work with your fellow editors. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:30, 20 August 2014 (UTC)


I didnt say albanopolis was albanian state, i just said that as a toponym albania has existed in europe since antiquty, and i meant as a "toponym", because it was actually a city.

-With what i've seen here on wiki it isnt taken as a base only the refernce of 1 author, but of many, however in middle ages, just like today, there were many kingdoms who never "fully ethnicly possesed their country", thats a fact.You are trying to imply that the foreign rulers have used term "albania" just geographicaly at the time,which is incorrect, it was called that way because the inhabitants were albanians.If it wasnt for the inhabitants, the name albania wouldnt exist in the middle ages.When serbia conqured albania , Stefan Nemanja just mentioned conquering arbanas, but it became part of the serbian empire,it didnt exist as a different state controlled by the serbs.so albania wasnt used as a geographical term bythe rulers who controlled it.this happened only latter , as the sanjak of albania.

-So what can we say about the time that William of Wied became prince of albania, was it called albania or austria?was this an albanian state that was ruled by a foreigner, or just because it has the name "albania" we cant say it is an albanian state?

-Many countries in the medieval didnt have the names they have today (italy,poland,germany,the baltics etc) but that doesnt make, example, the holy roman empire not a german state.anyways the name albania existed long before league of lezhe.

-Skanderbeg was the leader of the league of lezha, an albanian, and it is considered by many authors, as the unified albanian state,even if the montenegrin decided to collaborate.(Professor of Anthropology at Harward and University of Pennsylvania Carlton Steven Coon says that Montenegrins are slavinized Albanians,that why they collaborated with skanderbeg, but we cant be sure cane we?) How do you know that the families were more foreigner ethnicity than albanian?it was an alliance of albanian pricnipalities after all. And this pricipalities had albanian leaders of albanian origin, even though sometimes they may be leaded by another ruler. the albanian identity was often mistaken by the names and the religion in the middle ages, sometimes the orthodox albanians were called greeks, and ive also read here that albanians used to be called not only arbanite,albanoi, but also epirotes,illyrians in medieval.if someone had the name dhimiter, doesnt mean that he had greek origin, they were named often regarding religion.this is a fact today.if someone was called marin barleti, doesnt mean he was italian, it means he was probably catholic.the albanian pricipalities were actually albanian, even if sometimes they would fall into the hand of someone else. -the first cell of the albanian state is considered principality of arbanon, and it was createdby an albanian ruler.

-i called for another opinion because you are saying that albannia didnt exist in the middle ages, meanwhile by the consensus of most scholars, albania was formed during the middle ages. RcLd-91 (talk) 03:02, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

State Albania was established in 1912/13/14. It recently celebrated its centennial. If you don't believe me just google "100 Vjet Shtet Shqiptar" (English: 100 Years of the Albanian State) and see for yourself. You are, of course, free to disagree and to believe that everybody (Montenegrins, Illirians, Epirotes, Albanoi...) are equal to ethnic Albanians. I think that it is wrong to misuse wikipedia articles and even talkpages for dissemination of this kind of nationalistic mythology. All the best.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:27, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Dont missuse what i say and dont change my citations.i never said albanians are the same as those people.i said those names were used to call albanians.first we need to start by the most important thing that everyone should know already, albanoi and arbanitai (slavic:arbanasi) were the official names for the albanians in the middle ages, this is a known thing that is also referenced here.the fact that that the orthodox albanians sometimes were called greeks, is also referenced in different books,using the name arbanite for the catholic albanians.marin barleti uses very often the word epirotes, and also albanoi,(calling skanderbeg prince of epirotes)but epirotes was also by the same skanderbeg in the letter he send in italy.the name illyrians were used by different byzantine authors(see illyrians early modern usage).i was just trying to say that a single name was not always used to describe albanians in the medieval, but were used different ones, this is a known thing today, but that doesnt imply those people have a relation with albanians and i never implied that.as for the montenegrins i never said they were albanians, there have been words about that but its not sure.i explained everything, as u can see what i said has got absolutely nothing to do with "nationalistic mythology", this are things that have happend in the middle ages.albania actually existed in the middle ages and has appeared in different maps of that time [[2]]. 12:57, 21 August 2014 (UTC)RcLd-91 (talk)All the best.

Mind to every-editor, Alexikoua is clearly a greek nationalist that, when he has nothing better to say on the issue, he will say the map is too big(had this map shown a different demographic, believe me, size would not matter). Anyhow, I am offering, as editors that we are, to zoom the map on the region of Epirus if needed, and I really believe that the reader should see different points of view and not only pictures of...let me guess... Greece, Greeks, Greece, Vorio-epirus, Greece(thank god megali idea is not here as well :/) In any case, these acusations come after seeing how alexikoua catches after small details only for albanians to appear like they never had and do not still have anything to do with epirus, adn does edits based on his personal observations instead of being objective. This is simply unacceptable and does nothing but misinforms the reader! In my view, the old map, namely this https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Balkans-ethnic_%281861%29.jpg should be re-added, as it simply shows the demographic of epirus (which is not located in mars, but in the balkans, thus the size argument is redundant) in the light of the other balkan demographic. Unless you have serious, non-nationalistic reasons not to add this map, I will re-add it as soon as I can. If greeks can have a face to talk about vorio epirus in this page( let alone albanians never mention chameria here, let alone on a MAP!) I guess an objective german/french map is more than acceptable from everyone. I am waiting for an answer and then I am adding the map. Thank you. Cheers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.26.41.112 (talk) 17:09, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

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Problematic map violating the updated MOSMAC[edit]

Epirus across Greece Albania4.svg

The map in question is obviously not in accord with the updated WP:MOSMAC. Therefore, it should either be removed or corrected accordingly ("Republic of North Macedonia" instead of "Republic of Macedonia").

I think the map's creator, User:Future Perfect at Sunrise is active, and could do the corrections.Yannismarou (talk) 16:23, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Hi, yes, that should be easy enough to change, since it's an editable SVG. Thanks for flagging it up. Fut.Perf. 17:16, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
I tried to do it myself, since it seemed ideed easy, but I obviously did something wrong, and I cannot find out why. Now, in some px it looks like "North Macedonia" and in some others "R. of Macedonia". Your assistance would be much appreciated. I apologize more messing it up.Yannismarou (talk) 08:59, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
As far as I can see your edit was quite right, apparently it's just a matter of the preview png's being cached. If you add "?action=purge" to the preview url, you get the newer version, but I haven't figured out yet how to also force it in the page display here. Maybe just a matter of waiting a day or two. Fut.Perf. 09:27, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
Thank you!Yannismarou (talk) 06:55, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
@Future Perfect at Sunrise and Yannismarou:, to force the new map in the page display, can be done by Holding down SHIFT and clicking the refresh button on your web browser. This will clean up the page cache and re-download all information for display, including the new map. This works at least on Google Chrome, Mozilla Firefox and Opera if I am not mistaken. This way changes in display will be reflected immediatelly on the page instead of having to wait 1-2 days. --- SilentResident (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 12:23, 31 October 2019 (UTC)