Talk:Criticism of Holocaust denial

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The missing rubble at Birkenau[edit]

  • On 4 November 2002 I went to Auschwitz with a commemorative group, and by the crematorium remains at Birkenau I saw a heap of broken bricks and old mortar which the returning Polish population had thrown aside while searching for and removing fallen re-usable bricks. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 04:21, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

"Six million" section[edit]

It is not helpful, in an article named "criticism of Holocaust denial", to misrepresent the claims of the deniers. It is enough to present refutations of their actual claims, not to make up even more extreme claims just to make them look even worse. Thus, the article claims that the "6 million" figure is

"often minimized by such claims to a figure of only 1 million deaths, or only 300,000 deaths."

It isn't clear whose claims these are. Further below in the section, it is made clear the the 300k figure may be from the 1955 Die Tat magazine, which explicitly refers to German Jews. If this is the source of the 300k figure, it is a clear falsehood present this figure as a revisionist correction of the "6 million" grand total, let alone that such a claim has been made "often".

It seems that actual (non-"denialist") estimates of the Jewish death toll range between 5.1 and 6.5 million, with best estimates around 5.75M to 5.9M, while we can verify that people have been classified as deniers (or notorious revisionist) for preferring a number of 4M. So, it would seem the gap between "revisionism" and "best estimates", while real, is narrower than this article suggests and may in some cases even be accounted for in differences of definition of "Holocaust" (total number of Jewish deaths during WW2 vs. number of Jewish deaths due to being targeted specifically for being Jewish).

What I am saying is that the article needs to make a better effort in defining "revisionism" and addressing specific claims by revisionists. I have no doubt that crazy conspiracy loons abound, as everywhere, but it isn't helpful to simply say "often, claims such as" and cherry-pick the worst claim ever made. I am interested in in, which is the highest number of Jewish deaths somebody was willing to accept while still being classed as "revisionist". Apparently, the number is larger or equal than 4M. At the same time, Gerald Reitlinger's 1953 estimate of 4.2M to 4.5M is presented as outdated but reasonable in the main article, so it would seem the gap between revisionism and non-revisionism is pretty narrow. --dab (𒁳) 08:29, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Cole is certainly not the best example of what a denier is. Most of the deniers claim 1) that the nazi extermination camps did not exist, 29 that not Jew has been gazed, 3) that the number of Jews killed during WW II under nazi rule does not exceed 300,000 and 4) that most of them died because of diseases like typhus. This is, for instance, the case of French denier Robert Faurisson, but he is far from alone to do so. --Lebob (talk) 18:04, 22 July 2017 (UTC)