# Talk:Eye/Archive 1

## Avian eye

I would like a bit on the avian eye (perhaps separate) specifically its ability to detect UV.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 144.32.128.73 (talkcontribs) 16:21, 1 March 2004 (UTC).

## Evolution

"The eye is an organ which has evolved..." Evolved? POV. - SamE 13:47, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

Do you think evolution/science is not NPOV?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.253.29.164 (talkcontribs) 11:58, 26 November 2004 (UTC).
Evolution is a theory... yes, it is widely accepted, but the proper term for it is "theory of evolution"... Popular opinion does not NPOV make.--'Net 05:36, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Evolution is no more a theory than "economics" is a theory. The "theory of evolution" refers to Darwin's theory for how, specifically, evolution occurred. That it occurred is not in question, at least not among educated people. - jessica—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.180.76.199 (talkcontribs) 21:21, 24 February 2006 (UTC).

I'm educated, and I don't see it. You can only 'assume' evolution to be true. Especially the evolution of the eye. This section on the eye purports to 'explain' the evolution of the eye, but just lists a series of assumptions. Ironically, it skips over explaining the evolution of the method of detecting photons in the first place, the very foundation of the eye. All that is touched on is the 'morphological' evolution of the eye from a starting point of an eye-spot. From the article: "...as the first predator to gain true imaging would have touched off an "arms race"..." You can provide all the references you want, but this statement shows such a fundamental misunderstanding of the current Theory of Evolution, it's shocking. Or else it's puposely deceitful. "Arms Race"? This implies that one intelligent designer is attempting to out do another intelligent designer. Either evolution is unguided, or it's not. The idea that the genes of one animal know about the genes of another animal is ludicrous. Why would genes try harder because they got eaten? How do they know they're being eaten? How do they start trying harder? It doesn't matter how good a predator is. The chances of another species developing an advance in their vision capabilities through RANDOM mutation are no better after some other species has had an advancement than it was before. Besides, the whole point of evolution is that it is supposed to work within a species, NOT ACROSS species. ("Descent with modification" Anyone recall this?) Assinine idiocy like this is written in favor of evolution every day by so-called 'educated' people, and the kool-aid drinkers of evolution don't even see it. They just gulp it down. 24.153.223.151 (talk) 15:35, 28 April 2008 (UTC) Jay
Surely, it takes more than a few people who disagree to make something POV. Some people think the moon landing was a fake or that the earth is really flat, or that Elvis is still alive, but saying the earth is spherical and that we went to the moon and giving the date of Elvis' death is not POV. A minority of religious fundamentalists might disagree with evolution, but there is no real controversy among serious scientists or genuinely educated people. Evolution is the foundation of all of modern biology so, no, it is not POV to talk about it as a fact, which is as solid as any other facts on Wikipedia. --Daniel 17:06, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
"Evolution is the foundation of all of modern biology" ?? This is the most moronic statement on here. Entire college level biology textbooks mention evolution not at all, except for maybe a closing chapter. Evolution attempts to explain origins. It's a side-car to biology. In practice, it does little in day to day biology. Take away evolution and biology continues. The truth is that the diagram included in the Evolution section is speculation. Even if every person in the world accepts Evolution to be true, the diagram is still unfounded speculation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.198.144.175 (talk) 08:30, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

How a complex structure like the eye could have evolved is a difficult question for the theory of evolution, since intermediate forms would presumably have been of little use, and light-sensitive organs are present in a variety of different creatures without any clear evolutionary link

This is nonsense, looks like a creationist trying to make a point -> NPOV violation.reddish 11:25, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well I don't think it's nonsense at all, I agree with Netcrusher—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mmorgan1228 (talkcontribs) 06:24, 10 March 2006 (UTC).

Yes, absolute nonsense. Intermediate forms are all over the animal kingdom. There are light-sensitive cells up to the eyes of birds of prey which are far superior to our own, and many eyes in between. The evolutionary links have been modeled and demonstrated many times. That's why I'm removing the paragraph. Beetlenaut 09:03, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

May be making a point, however, for NPOV, equal voice must be given to both... factions, evolutionist and creationist, unless any section about the origins of anything on the entire wiki are to be censored. --'Net 05:36, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

I agree—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mmorgan1228 (talkcontribs) 06:27, 10 March 2006 (UTC).

I see no place for creationism on a science-based article. But, if other factions are to be included, you're right all beliefs should be included. Including, for example, those who follow the flying spaghetti monster religion. PJ, Feb 2006.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Philjohnston (talkcontribs) 08:17, 27 February 2006 (UTC).

Actually people just need to look at the evidence from both sides and realize that there *is* support scientifically for Creationism. I think it's all in how the evidence is interpereted...hence the benefit of presenting BOTH sides and letting people make up their own minds.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mmorgan1228 (talkcontribs) 06:27, 10 March 2006 (UTC).

The evolution of the eye, for those who believe in evolution, is hard to imagine. To a layperson without specific knowledge of genetics it looks utterly amazing. Without a lens it would be useless, without the retina too, without the sclera, without the .. . Point is, this is an issue that should be adressed. If so many intermediate forms exist, please name them. Ec5618 09:09, May 10, 2005 (UTC)

Why an eye without a lens will be useless? How about pin-hole eyes? Why an eye without a retina will be useless? How about a patch of light-sensitive cells? Please, you are straw-man attacking the Creationist-defined evolution of eyes, which is a direct jump from nothingness into complex eyes. No, it did not happen that way. Go read "The View from Mount Improbable" by Richard Dawkins, it will address all your question regarding lens, retina, sclera......and intermediate forms. And the evolution of the eye, for me, is completely logical. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.189.47.158 (talk) 08:11, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Amazing, but not impossible : see falsifiability and also irreducible complexity. Crucial to understanding evolutionary theory is the realisation that all forms are intermediary! PJ, Feb 2006.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Philjohnston (talkcontribs) 08:17, 27 February 2006 (UTC).

For a good explanation on the evolution of the eyes, you can checkout at How the Mind Works. Fred Hsu 22:57, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

i was wondering if someone could post a page about cows eyes. i would like to know how they are different from human eyes. i once did a project on cows eyes and i had to disect one once...ewwww!...anyway, it would be helpful if we could see the differences in the parts and other stuff (like position, color, location, etc.) when you compare it to a human's eye. thanks to whoever does this. bye.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Libra girl (talkcontribs) 22:24, 15 May 2004 (UTC).

## ipRGCs

Not So Different After All: Mysterious Eye Cells Adapt To Light http://www.brown.edu/Administration/News_Bureau/2005-06/05-059.html—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.184.72.26 (talkcontribs) 18:35, 9 January 2006 (UTC).

Argh! Someone should go slap those fuckers upside the head for their incredibly bad choice of name. Rods, cones, ipRGCs. Nice. Really rolls off the tongue. Graft 18:38, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Aren't there rules about using profanities? I'm sure it's unneccesary, come-on people!—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.83.71.166 (talkcontribs) 14:44, 12 January 2006 (UTC).
Err. If there are, it would be pretty hard to write entries like fuck, or maybe list of sexual positions. As to whether it's "unnecessary", you're entitled to your opinion. It's no less necessary than any other set of words in the English language. Graft 17:16, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

## NPOV

NPOV? This is what is written beneath a image in this article: "The human eye is said to be the window to the soul." Is that really NPOV, wouldnt it be more NPOV to say "Some say the eye is the window to the soul", or something like that, instead of the current "IS said to be..", it sounds to me almost as fact, or atleast as there are many people that say so. It sounds a little bit religious (ie not NPOV). - magnus—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.253.29.164 (talkcontribs) 11:56, 26 November 2004(UTC). --

Plenty of people say it... and it's not religious; I don't think it refers to "soul" in the *insert religion brand-name here* sense. - jessica the friendly atheist—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.180.76.199 (talkcontribs) 21:18, 24 February 2006 (UTC).

Whether it's religious or not, and whether its true or not, and whether souls are real or not, and whether its metaphorical or not, are all completely irrelevant. The only question is this: is it indeed a fact that the human eye **IS SAID TO BE** the window to the soul. If people, in fact, do say this to a substantial degree that it is a common saying, then it is a factual statement. There may be people who disagree with that statement, but for there to be a POV issue here, they would have to disagree with the statement "that people make that statment". Almost no one would say such a thing.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by DT Strain (talkcontribs) 17:01, 6 April 2006 (UTC).

## Error

"As we age we gain this ability to adjust the focus. Such a condition is known as presbyopia." This should be lose, not gain, right? It is old people that tend to need reading glasses to correct for this presbyopia.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.150.236.108 (talkcontribs) 17:57, 15 July 2004 (UTC).

I just fixed it. Thank you for pointing out the error. -- PFHLai 14:15, 2004 Jul 28 (UTC)

## Eye disambiguation

I really think that there is a lot that can be written in and around the subject of the 'eye'. The page as it stands doesn't seem quite general enough. Perhaps a new entry entitled "Human Eye" could be formed to differentiate the entry from more general discussion of the 'eye'. I'm new to Wikipedia- can anybody comment on how to do this...—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Si morgan (talkcontribs) 12:11, 28 July 2004 (UTC).

Welcome to Wikipedia, Si morgan. I suggest that you visit Wikipedia:Community Portal to find out how to get involved in building new articles. Happy editing.  :-)
-- PFHLai 14:09, 2004 Jul 28 (UTC)
P.S. We all sign our messages with "~~~~". The signature, time & date will appear automatically.
Sounds like a good idea. The article really is getting quite long, and it would be quite useful to only cover generic eyes here with more detail in other articles. Luke Stodola 06:08, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Now that this page isn't a COTW candidate, I think some expansion along the lines of Wikipedia:WikiProject Science would be helpful. The subject headings on that Wikiproject are recommendations only; don't feel pressured to conform exactly to the model. See brain for how the wikiproject works on an anatomy article. Sayeth 14:02, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

## Article shown in a television program.

An older version of this article was shown during a description of Wikipedia on go_open, see Wikipedia:Press_coverage#December. — Jeandré, 2004-12-11t18:22z

## That Crusty Stuff

Could anyone add something about that crusty stuff one gets during sleep? Not sure if it's better on this page or the sleep page, but I couldn't find reference to it on either, nor could I find much about it searching the rest of the web; and it seems like it doesn't even have a proper name. Melodia Chaconne 9 July 2005 19:24 (UTC)

(Hi- I'm not sure where to put this in the eye section, but I was wondering too, so I checked it out. The crusty stuff around your eyes when you wake up is made of tears mixed with a little sweat and oil =) if anyone could please add that in)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 219.89.150.22 (talkcontribs) 03:16, 28 December 2005 (UTC).

I'm not sure what name non-British people may assign to this, but the hard, yellow substance sometimes found around the eyes shortly after waking is called "sleep" here.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.83.71.166 (talkcontribs) 14:54, 12 January 2006 (UTC).

I've only heard it referred to as 'sleep' as well(Texas).—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.96.239.234 (talkcontribs) 11:02, 31 March 2006 (UTC).

I know it as the sand from the Sandman (folklore).—The preceding unsigned comment was added by John Abbe (talkcontribs) 01:56, 13 April 2006 (UTC).

I know this is about a year too late, but the proper name for it is rheum. Kafziel 20:08, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

## Growth of eyes

I have heard that eyes don't change size as you grow. Is this true or an urban legend? Ben Arnold 9 July 2005 11:25 (UTC)

I think it's partially true. I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I think that eyes grow, but not as fast as the rest of your body. You know, like how babies have different proportions than adults? Their heads are much bigger, etc. So, I think that a baby's eyes are much bigger proportional to their body, then their body grows to, say, 4 or 5 times the baby's length, and the eyes increase their size by 50%. Sure, they're growing, but it doesn't look like it. If there are any knowlegible people reading this, feel free to prove me wrong. If I am wrong.Twilight Realm 22:39, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
to correct you- I have been doing a science project concerning vision and have found something that disagrees with your hypothesis. In the book: Photographic Atlas of the Body (produced by Firefly Books Ltd., 2004) it gives a picture of a foetal eye and explains that the eye starts to form during the 3rd week of foetal developement and by the 5th month that the retina lens and other major structures are formed. It goes on to say : 'At birth, the baby's eye is alreasy 2/3 the size of an adults, but growth and development continue until puberty.' So what you have said seems right by reason, but the aforementioned information gives you the scientific answer. -ToPete--68.12.114.47 04:18, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

## New Picture

I have seen much better pictures of an eye, ones that show the detail of the iris, etc. The current one should be replaced.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.88.247.75 (talkcontribs) 03:16, 9 September 2005 (UTC).

I agree that one is mediocre.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.86.113.202 (talkcontribs) 08:19, 5 October 2005 (UTC).

Any chance of putting up a picture of the famous National Geographic Afghani woman's eyes? Warning large picture. [1]—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.51.229.7 (talkcontribs) 06:50, 9 March 2006 (UTC).

Copyright issues on that one, I think. vLaDsINgEr 23:54, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

## Question

Have you ever noticed when you close your eyes that you can see different shapes? what is that ?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.60.177.17 (talkcontribs) 18:23, 5 October 2005 (UTC).

I've always been under the impression that was just the effect of pressure on the eyeball, and subsequent random neural stimulation. -- Ec5618 22:47, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

The name for that phenomenon is phosphenes. Someone could add that to the article or I might at some point. 68.49.1.207 06:05, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

## Cleanup

Somebody deleted my cleanup suggestion; however, this person did not revise the article at all. Many of the sentences in this article are awkwardly worded, and the article as a whole is a little disorganized. I don't see how anyone can disagree with this fact. For example, in the second paragraph, no commas are used when introducing appositives (and they are all nonessential appositives). Indeed, no punctuation other than peroids is used at all. The result is an article that simply looks like a heap of text. As for awkwardness, Let's consider the following: "The eye, including its structure and mechanism, has fascinated scientists and the public in general since ancient times." I would propose a revision like "The eye has fascinated many, since ancient times. Both laymen and scientists have speculated as to its structure and mechanics". "Public in general" is certainly redundant.

I might perform this cleanup myself when I have time.User:128.135.103.205 22:11, 20 October 2005

• I agree. The article is completely disorganized and contains much redundant information that should be farmed out to other sub-articles. I wholeheartedly support reinsertion of the cleanup tag. AED 22:52, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Tomorrow I'm going to have a go at cleaning and copyediting this entire article. Killdevil 01:21, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

## Question recently posted in the main article

An anonymous editor posted this recently. I've removed it from the article and placed it here.

Pointing a fast blinking LED lamp onto a closed eyelid (for comfort and safety) produces a plaid, snowflake, or oriental rug like pattern, the pattern seems to change with speed about 5 to 20 or more flashes per second. Could this be indicting the refresh rate and refresh pattern of the eye. This was first noticed as a child being driven past a woods where the sun filtered through and made a plaid pattern on my closed eyelids. Very puzzeling at the time.

--Idont Havaname 21:21, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

## Varieties of eyes

If anyone wants to use the following information I've gathered from various web sources to update the "Varieties of eyes section" or start another article by the same name, be my guest. I'm going to take a break from it! AED 07:29, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

There exists in nature a wide variety of eyes, ranging from a small grouping of light-sensitive cells to highly complex structures (in some groups of arthropods, molluscs, and vertebrates) capable of registering clear images. [2].

### Image-forming eyes

• Image-forming eyes: There are generally recognized eight different types of eyes within the Animal Kingdom that are capable of forming images [3] [4] [5][6][7]. Image-forming eyes are subdivided into different types: single-chambered eyes, often misleadingly called "simple eyes", and compound eyes [8]. Species: Image-forming eyes are found only among vertebrates (primates, such as humans), mollusks, (cephalopods, such as octopi and squid; bivalves, such as clams), and arthropods [9].
• Single-chambered eyes (also known as single-aperature eyes): Single-chambered eyes have a single optical system and are subdivided into three different types: camera-type eyes, concave mirror eyes, and pinhole eyes.
• Camera-type eyes (also known as single lens camera eyes or lens camera eyes or camera eyes or single-lens eyes or simply lens eyes): Camera-type eyes work similar to cameras in that they have a single internal lens that helps to focus light as an inverted image on the photoreceptor layer. This type of eye is optimized to provide a high resolution, large field of view, focusing ability, color detection and a very large dynamic range to see both in the bright sunshine and in the dark night [10]. Species: Camera-type eyes are found in vertebrates and in two groups of molluscs, octopus and squid [11], as well as a few annelids, some spiders and insect larvae [12]. Jumping spiders have eight of them, each pair with slightly different functions [13]. Fact check: annelids, spiders, and insect larvae may have a single corneal lens.
• Concave mirror eyes: Concave mirror eyes use not a lens but rather the reflection off of a concave survace to focus light. Species: Concave mirror eyes are found in some mollusks (the scallop Pecten), where they allow the eye to see moving objects, and there is a modified form in a few deep-sea crustaceans [14].
• Pinhole eyes or pinhole camera eyes: Pinhole eyes form images without lenses by passing light through narrow aperture [15]. Species: Pinholes eyes are found in the primitive cephalopod Nautilus and the abalone Haliotis [16].
• Compound eyes: Compound eyes are composed of many light-sensitive elements, each having its own refractive system and each forming a portion of an image [17]. Compared with single-aperature eyes, they have poor resolution, but a very large view angle, polarization, or fast movement detection often make up for the lack of resolution [18]. Compound eyes are typically classified as either apposition eyes, that form multiple inverted images, or superposition eyes, that form a single erect image[19]. In the superposition compound eye each rhabdom (light sensitive unit) receives light through many ommatidial facets, while in the apposition compound eye every rhabdom receives light from a single facet[20]. Species: Compound eyes are found in a large number of arthropods, including various species of insects, crustaceans, centipedes, and millipedes [21] as well as a few species of annelids and mollusks [22]. Trilobites, an extinct class of arthropods, also utilized various types of compound eyes. A combination of both types of compound eyes is used in some insects [23]. The various types of compound eyes (apposition and all three superposition types) are present in all crustacean classes except Copepoda [24].
• Apposition eyes: Apposition eyes consist of an array of individual units with a single lens and photoreceptor called ommatidia. Each ommatidium gathers light from a small part of the visual field [25]. This type of eye allows for reasonably high resolution but low sensitivity[26]. There are two types of apposition eyes: the typical apposition eye and the neural superposition eye. Species: Apposition eyes are found in Drosophila, many diurnal insects, shallow-water and terrestrial crabs, lower crustacea, and the Limulus horseshoe crab [27][28] [29].
• Apposition eye (typical)
• Neural superposition eye, or schizochroal eyes: Neural superposition eyes are identical to the typical apposition eye in that each lens forms an image on the rhabdom, but the images are combined in the brain. Species: Neural superposition eyes are found in Strepsiptera and dipteran flies [30].
• Superposition eyes or clear zone eyes: In superposition eyes, the light from multiple facets combines on the surface of the photoreceptor layer to form a single erect image of the object. Compared to apposition eyes, the superposition eye is much more light sensitive [31] [32][33]. In these types of eyes, the dioptric apparatus and the rhabdom layer are separated by an unpigmented clear zone. This permits, in theory, the superposition of light from a number of corneal facets onto a single rhabdom [34]. There are three types of superposition eyes: refracting superposition eyes, reflecting superposition eyes, or parabolic superposition eyes. Many ommatidia contribute to a deep-lying erect image [35]. Species: Superposition eyes are found in nocturnal insects such as neuropteran flies and moths as well as deep-water crustaceans and crabs [36][37][38].
• Refracting superposition eyes: Refracting superposition eyes have lenses which are spherical in shape, causing the light to be bent into fewer convergence points on the retina, creating a much higher quality image[39]. Species: Refracting superposition eyes are found in insects, including the Hummingbird hawkmoth, and euphausid crustaceans (krill) [40][41].
• Reflecting superposition eyes: In reflecting superposition eyes, the lenses are rectangular in shape, so light is not bent through each of them, rather it is reflected creating multiple convergence points on the retina [42]. Species: Reflecting superposition eyes are found only in most long-bodied decapod crustaceans such as crayfish, lobsters, and shrimp [43][44][45].
• Parabolic superposition eyes: In parabolic superposition eyes, the ommatidia are shaped much like lightbulbs, with the larger end facing outward. Light is processed in a similar fashion as with the refracting superposition eye, however, not to such a precise degree [46]. Species: Parabolic superposition eyes are found in swimming crabs and hermit crabs [47][48].

### Light detecting eyes (Section still needs work, fact-checked, etc.)

• Light-detecting eyes (also called simple eyes, but not to be confused with the camera eye)
• Ocellus - the 'simple' eye of adult and nymphal insects, typically three in a triangle on the vertex, with one median and two lateral ocelli; the stemma of some holometabolous larvae [49]. Species: see Wiki article; found in a great variety of invertebrate animals, including flatworms, annelid worms (such as the earthworm), mollusks, crustaceans, and insects [50].

Some of the simplest eyes, called ocelli, can be found in animals like snails, who can not actually "see" in the common sense.

• Dorsal ocellus
• Lateral ocellus, also known as a Stemma - the 'simple' eye of many larval insects, sometimes aggregated into a more complex visual organ [51]; a simple eye in some insect larvae. It is also called a lateral ocellus [52] Species: various insect larvae [53]; caterpillars [54]; caterpillar of the moth, Trabala vishnou Lefebur [55].
• Eye spot
• Bolwig's organ - "the larval eye"

## Focusing

I was wondering if somebody could elaborate how our eyes focus. I believe that the focal length of the lenses change, the eye balls rotate so that images on bothe retinas are more or less same. What I am not sure about if the distance of the lens from the retina also change. Any reference will also help.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 165.89.84.86 (talkcontribs) 20:13, 9 December 2005 (UTC).

No. The distance from the lens to the retina is constant. Abnormalities in that distance result in the lens focusing beyond or before the plane of the retina, resulting in myopia or hyperopia. Graft 19:22, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

## Article Improvement Drive

Contact lens is currently nominated to be improved on Wikipedia:Article Improvement Drive. Please support the article with your vote. --Fenice 10:51, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

## naked eye acuity

maybe this point belongs to "visual_acuity" article, but in any case, none of them refers to the average accepted "naked-eye" limits of human beings: what is accepted size of particles as invisible to human eye? (microscope needed to see them)

Thank you —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.130.20.3 (talkcontribs) 12:26, 10 March 2006 (UTC).

## Summary style

Are there any objections to writing this article in summary style? The eye and its role in visual perception are complex enough that it doesn't make sense to elaborate on every structure's anatomy, histology, cytology, evolution, development, variation from species to species, and function, or all the various types of pathology that can affect the eye. An entire article on ocular development could be created from the section entitled "Evolution of eyes", so I may start there. -AED 06:51, 10 April 2006 (UTC)