# Talk:Fat

## Whats up with these unit conversions? They're off by 1000 fold.

"Fat is one of the three main classes of food and, at approximately 38 kJ (9 Cal) per gram, as compared to sugar with 17 kJ (4 Cal) per gram or ethanol with 29 kJ (7 Cal) per gram, the most concentrated form of metabolic energy available to humans."

Cal = calorie correct? and KJ = kilojoule correct?

If so those calorie numbers are missing a 1000x multiplier.

Google for "convert 38 kilojoule to calorie":

```38 kiloJoule = 9 082.21797 calorie
```

Just different calories. Hardly anybody uses those dinky gram calories or small calories any more. Gene Nygaard 18:55, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Just put a dam k in front so you get kcal kilo calories. If you wan't to use SI units please do it right and use the correct unit conversions. One calorie is the energi requierd to heat one gram of water one degree celsius. One kcal is therfore the energy requierd to heat one thousand grams, one kilogram or on litre of water one degree celsius (or Kelvin, suit yourself). From wikipedias own calorie article:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calorie

A calorie is a unit of measurement for energy. Calorie is French and derives from the Latin calor (heat). In most fields, it has been replaced by the joule, the SI unit of energy. However, it remains in common use for the amount of food energy.

Definitions for calorie fall into 2 classes: The small calorie or gram calorie approximates the energy needed to increase the temperature of 1 gram of water by 1 °C. This is about 4.184 Joules, and exactly 0.001 large calories. The large calorie or kilogram calorie approximates the energy needed to increase the temperature of 1 kg of water by 1 °C. This is about 4.184 kJ, and exactly 1000 small calories

```130.243.153.103 22:34, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
```
Generally, the distinction is made by the case of the letter c. Calorie = kCal. --Belg4mit (talk) 04:33, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

## mention the controversy

"Diet and Fat: A Severe Case of Mistaken Consensus" by JOHN TIERNEY 2007 (New York Times)
"... Gary Taubes ... book meticulously debunking diet myths, “Good Calories, Bad Calories” (Knopf, 2007). The notion that fatty foods shorten your life began as a hypothesis based on dubious assumptions and data; when scientists tried to confirm it they failed repeatedly. The evidence against Häagen-Dazs was nothing like the evidence against Marlboros."
"If the second person isn’t sure of the answer, he’s liable to go along with the first person’s guess. ... Thus begins an “informational cascade” as one person after another assumes that the rest can’t all be wrong."

I think the article should at least mention the controversy, even if the rest of the article clearly shows that one side (or the other) is wrong.

--75.19.73.101 21:29, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

## Calories?

I was surprised that there is no mention of calories, e.g. how many calories are in a gram of fat, how many calories one has to burn to lose a pound of fat, etc. --Tmusgrove (talk) 18:52, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

add it yourself then.. it's roughly 9 calories per gram of fat and that figures to about 3500 calories in a pound of fat —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.179.151.70 (talk) 05:08, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't see here the reason why fat gives more energy that either carbohydrate or protein. Put it, please... -Pika ten10 (talk) 11:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Seems obvious to me it should be because carbohydrates and proteins are already partially oxidized. Although, if you really wanted to, you could work out the energetics yourself; have fun with that. --Belg4mit (talk) 04:37, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Fats give 9 cals per gram, sugars and amino acids 5 cals per gram. The difference is due to the fact that catabolism of fatty acid liberates more high energy phosphate bonds than does the others.Historygypsy (talk)` —Preceding undated comment added 13:59, 12 January 2010 (UTC).

## "Chemically, fats are generally triesters of glycerol and fatty acids."

As opposed to? --Belg4mit (talk) 04:34, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

As opposed to other organic tissues, (i.e. fibrous connective tissue, bone, etc.) In short, fatty acids and triesters of glycerol are the chemical strucutre of fats.--Metalhead94 (talk) 22:47, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

## No mention or link of health issues regarding fat in diet

A topic of major importance I would have thought. I came here wanting to find out the upper and lower recommendations for fat consumption, but not mentioned. The article (or a new linked article) could discuss the various types of fat also. Apparantlty there are many different types of fat, not just a few. 78.146.75.5 (talk) 15:41, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

## dieting i think shall be entered into this section??? about FAT ????

Dieting is the practice of ingesting food in a regulated fashion to achieve or maintain a controlled weight. In most cases the goal is weight loss in those who are overweight or obese, but some athletes aspire to gain weight (usually in the form of muscle) and diets can also be used to maintain a stable body weight.

Diets to promote weight loss are generally divided into four categories: low-fat, low-carbohydrate, low-calorie, and very low calorie.[1] A meta-analysis of six randomized controlled trials found no difference between the main diet types (low calorie, low carbohydrate, and low fat), with a 2–4 kilogram weight loss in all studies.[1] At two years all diet types cause equal weight loss irrespective of the macronutrients emphasized.[2] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.143.200.221 (talk) 09:13, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

## Defining Fats

Fats are only found in animals, not in plants. Fats are Cholesterol, Triglyceride and some specialized compounds found only in neurologic tissue.

Lipids is a name that covers all fats plus plant oils and other non water soluble compounds such as fatty acids.

Historygypsy (talk) 13:56, 12 January 2010 (UTC) lecturer organic chemistry (retired)

Huh? What about olive oil, sunflower oil, rapeseed/canola oil, walnut oil, grapeseed oil, palm oil? All commonly referred to as fats. 92.24.182.48 (talk) 16:29, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

## Edit request

{{editsemiprotected}}

Attention Moderator: Please append fat article with sub heading "Human Health And Diet" to closely reiterate contents below, sourced from http://lowfatcooking.about.com/od/lowfatbasics/a/fats1004.htm

I have removed the material directly copy-pasted. This is a copyright violation, and should not be posted here. To submit a change, please rewrite the desired material in your own words exactly as you want it to appear. 03:51, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

## Why nothing about the health dangers of over-consumption?

Particularly for saturated fat, fried foods, and so on? 92.15.3.53 (talk) 10:20, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

## Edit request from Jm5104, 10 December 2010

{{edit semi-protected}} Hello Chubby...

Jm5104 (talk) 00:55, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Usb10 Connected? 01:23, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

## Edit request

Could we make the substances listed in the list of edible plant and animal fats be linked? i.e. "peanuts" instead of "peanuts." It would greatly help me. Thanks.

## Edit request

There is a wrongly constructed sentence. Under Saturated and unsaturated fats, there is the sentence: In unsaturated fats are derived from fatty acids with the formula CnH(2n-1)CO2H. "In unsaturated fats" is a phrase, leaving the verb "are derived" with no subject. I suppose the word "In" should be removed, but these are highly technical articles with no general Edit buttons in them, so I've left the editing to someone in the specialist community that normally deals with editing such articles. Ynotna (talk) 23:06, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

## Edit request on 6 August 2013

Text bellow the second image under "Chemical structure":

-All carbon-carbon double bonds have are cis isomers.

+All carbon-carbon double bonds are cis isomers.

Torkel Bjørnson-Langen (talk) 03:18, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Done RudolfRed (talk) 03:56, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

## Triglycerides with two carbon chains?

I'm baffled at this sentence: "The molecules are called triglycerides, which are triesters of glycerol and with two carbon chains (one bonded to the single-bonded oxygen and the other to the main carbon), often formed from the reaction of the carboxylic acid and an organic alcohol."

If "carbon chains" mean the fatty acids then there are _three_ of them and they are bonded to each oxygen of glycerol. If you include glycerol itself as a carbon chain, which it is, then there are four carbon chains but I don't see the point in discussing all carbon chains as relative to the oxygens of the ester bonds.

Also, what does "single-bonded oxygen" exactly mean? In each carbonyl group, there is one double-bonded oxygen; in each ester bond, there is one oxygen with _two_ single bonds; neither is truly single-bonded. Same for "main carbon": is it one of the carbons in glycerol (which one?) or is it the carbon at the alpha end of each fatty acid?

Joe Forster/STA (talk) 11:21, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

## Response

I made a number of changes in this article, I hope for the better. Please offer feedback. Tdw1203 (talk) 19:39, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

It looks great, thanks for your edits. --Tom (LT) (talk) 21:23, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

## {{Technical}}

I tagged the article with `{{Technical}}` because it focuses too much on the scientific definition of fat and not a general definition or one from a dietary perspective. Esquivalience t 01:28, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

## Removal Request

Please remove the second picture that shows composition of saturated/unsaturated fats. Overall article tries to be accurate, while the picture demonstrates 'pizza with cheese' under meats section...

## Edit Request

Edit Request to add the following, submitted by Gcjblack (talk) 22:59, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

## Dietary Considerations

Dietary fat and oils entered into controversy and manipulation soon after the shortage of fats and oils in Europe during the 1820's spurred adulteration, the growing market for textiles created tons of waste cottonseeds, Wesson invented deodorized cottonseed oil in 1899, and Proctor and Gamble launched partially hydrogenated cottonseed oil as Crisco in 1911. The battle lines hardened in Sept. 1955 when the USA's President Eisenhower suffered a heart attack, and the controversial Dr. Ancel_Keyes declared war on dietary fats as the alleged cause.

Today, we still suffer from mis-information, superstition, hunches being touted as medical facts, and slip shod questionable research promoted at the latest "scientific proof". Undeclared conflicts of interest, bias, political interference, government funding awarded to "friendly" researchers, revocation of prior government funding, and marketing propaganda has severely colored the type of research done, how the research was conducted, and the interpretation of results for dietary fat. Almost all of these problems are caused or contributed to by the huge prior investments made, and future profits that stand to be won or lost based on the outcome of the dietary fat controversy.

It is little wonder why the public is confused and jaded at the next pronouncement on dietary fat, or the alternatives thereto.

The following are some of the least disputed "facts" about dietary fat:

• Many cultures and regions have historically had low or non-existent histories of obesity, heart disease, and/or cancer. This has lead some people to search for the one genetic, lifestyle, environmental, or dietary factor that caused or contributed to this better health outcome, in the hope that that one factor can be exported to all other cultures as the "magic solution" to better health. These included fish oil capsules because of Eskimo's low heart disease and cancer and high fish consumption, Okinawa Japanese longevity allegedly through yams and brown rice consumption, Mediterranean Diet high in olive oil for low obesity and cardiovascular disease, Paleo Diet. and others.
• Dietary fats contribute 9 kCal per gram, which is significantly more energy than protein or carbohydrates. Therefore, a small change in dietary fats consumed can have a significant effect on the total calories consumed.
• Consuming dietary fats tend to cause satiation, which helps prevent over-consumption of food and calories. Processed food billed as "Low Fat" tend to substitute additional carbohydrates, spices, salt, and/or flavorings to make the food palatable and/or addictive (see Bliss_point food engineering), resulting in consumption of excessive calories, salt, or carbohydrates.
• The heart and major muscles tend to prefer (and operate more efficiently) when powered by dietary fat, as contrasted to glucose. Even the brain, after 3 to 5 days to acclimatize itself to a 'low carb, high fat' diet, can get about 70% of its energy from fat that has been metabolized into ketone bodies, with the liver supplying the other 30% of the brain's energy as glucagon (ie. glucose in a concentrated form) that has been produced by the metabolizing of dietary fat. Therefore the body can operate in a safe and healthy manner on dietary fats with minimal or no carbohydrates.
• Body fat is often used as the body's dumping ground for toxins and other waste products found in the blood that can't be excreted or eliminated in another manner. The composition of the stored body fat (ie. the percentages of trans, PUFA, MUFA, SFA, Omega-3, Omega-6, etc.) is dependent on the person's prior dietary habits, integrated over time. These stored body fats (with the other toxins and waste products stored with it) can rapidly re-enter the bloodstream due to minute-by-minute variations in the energy expended and the food consumed. This can significantly skew the results of any dietary study on the impact of dietary fats, as the results tends to be influenced as a blend of what was eaten during the study, as well as the stored fat that waxes and wains during the study.
• Hydrogenation of oils, deodorization, and artificially created trans-fat from excessive and/or aggressive processing methods (ie. high heat, high temperature, highly reactive chemicals and/or environments, highly oxidizing, fine grinding, excessive solvent or physical extraction and "purification" steps, long storage times, etc.) are not good choices for a healthy diet, as they have been associated with significant metabolic impacts and increased risk of disease.
• The use of Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations CAFO techniques for farming have significantly changed the fats in farm animals and the resulting meats, as compared to traditional farming method.
• Polyunsaturated fats, PUFA, rapidly oxidize and denature over time, or cooking. The rancid or oxidized forms of these fats are generally regarded as significant problems if they are allowed into your diet.
• Monosaturated fats, MUFA, are less likely to oxidize or denature, and are therefore usually better than PUFA fats.
• Saturated fats, SFA, are the most stable and resistant to oxidation and denaturing.
• Omega-6 fats are a PUFA that tend to cause or contribute to systemic inflammation (eg. irritable bowel syndrome, rheumatoid arthritis, etc.), and therefore dietary PUFA should be significantly reduced, or minimized.
• Omega-3 fats, even though they are a PUFA, tend to overcome some of the negative effects from Omega-6 dietary fats
• Since the 1900's, the ratio of the dietary fats has seen dramatic shifts. Today in North America, we have 8 times more PUFA's (Omega-6 fats) in our diets, our subcutaneous fats, and mother's breast milk. This has been mainly caused by the addition of vegetable oils, and far more processed foods that contain significant quantities of PUFA. These dietary changes are spreading more and more around the world due to food costs, multi-national brand marketing, shifting food costs, and similar economic reasons.
• It is generally believed that the dietary fat ratio between Omega-6 PUFA to Omega-3 MUFA should be 4 or less, with 1:1 ratio ideal.
• North American diets currently have Omega-6:Omega-3 ratios as high as 20; significantly different from the maximum proposed ratio of 4.
• The correlation between childhood and adult obesity has been studied many times over the previous 2 centuries, but there was never found to be a statistically valid correlation (ie. being fat as a baby did not predispose that they would become an obese adult). Today in the USA, if a 4 month old baby is obese, there is a 90% chance that child will still be obese when 7 years old. If a 7 year old is obese, there is a 90% change that child will become an obese adult.[1] Therefore being obese at 4 months old predicts with 81% accuracy that the baby will be an obese adult. It is believed that this correlation has suddenly appeared since the 1950's due to the dramatic shift towards increasing dietary carbohydrates and reducing dietary fat consumption in the USA.

## Chemistry of Fats

Edit proposed for Wiki "Fat" page

## Semi-protected edit request on 14 February 2016

Firstly, the entire "Dietary Considerations" section is completely unsourced and riddled with inaccurate information. Should this entire section be flagged? It seems like the user who added this did more harm than good adding a hole trove of unverified and unsourced information.

"Omega-3 fatty acid fats, even though they are a MUFA, tend to overcome some of the negative effects from Omega-6 dietary fats" should be changed to indicate that Omega-3 are, in fact, PUFA, as following the Omega-3 link will readily indicate.

"There is a world-wide epidemic of obese 6 month old babies. It is likely this was not caused by parents refusing to get the baby a gym membership." This should be removed or at least rephrased due to it being inflammatory/unprofessional. RubiksMoose (talk) 16:40, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Done I removed it. Was added a few days ago. Unsourced mostly and used one unreliable source. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 00:34, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

## References

After reading "There are two essential fatty acids (EFAs) in human nutrition: alpha-linolenic acid (an omega-3 fatty acid) and linoleic acid (an omega-6 fatty acid).[2][3]", I wanted to see reference 2 and 3. Where are they? "[2][3]" do not link to references, and reference 2 (there is no reference 3) at the bottom of the page points to a "Food Labelling Regulations 1996" which is not a meaningful reference in the context. Carystus (talk) 03:53, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

## Semi-protected edit request on 7 September 2016

Scarce is fat

165.138.31.1 (talk) 16:01, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Not done: This is not an edit request. Topher385 (talk) 16:09, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

## Semi-protected edit request on 3 May 2017

```Smithyboyanddacrew (talk) 10:00, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
```
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Kosack (talk) 10:01, 3 May 2017 (UTC)