Talk:Fatimid Caliphate

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Claim[edit]

This "He legitimized his claim by his descent from the Prophet by way of the Prophet's daughter Fatima Zahra and her husband Ali ibn Abu Talib" doesn't really make any sense, because he didn't change his descent to make his claim legitimate. How about "He justified his claim..." ? Jogback 04:33, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Iemen was ismaili, but not fatimid[edit]

Just taking a look at your article, I found a wide spred error about fatimids. You say:

The Fatimid or Fatimid Caliphate is the Ismaili Shiite dynasty that ruled North Africa from A.D. 909 to 1171. Under the Fatimids, Egypt became the center of an empire that included at its peak North Africa, Sicily, Palestine, Syria, the Red Sea coast of Africa, the Yemen, and the Hejaz.

Well, Iemen was never fatimid, just allied to them with the sulajhid dynasty. In Palestine and Syria, their possessions where just a few little cities, because of the anarchic status of the rest of the land. Source: History of Islam, 2 (750-1055), by M.A. Shaban. -- AnnubiX, from catalan wikipedia.


Relation between Fatimids and Crusaders.[edit]

One of the more controversial issues surrounding the Fatimid dynasty was its relation with the prominent issue of its time, namely the crusades. Subsequently, in my opinion, this decided the future of Shi'a school of thought in the middle-east for hundreds of years to come. Would someone who is knowledgable about this period of history add what he knows? I would be interested in reading it very much. HAE 19:48, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I can only support this request, nine (!) years later... Just have a look at the site on the Fatimids in other languages which often have at least a short, neutral paragraph on the crusades. Surely this can be done a lot better than what we have right now! 93.195.211.55 (talk) 17:05, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

al-Mahdi's caliphate began in 909 or 910[edit]

I've changed the date to 910 and I'm completely aware that this is only half of the story. He appeared 909 in Sijilmasa was called caliph by his followers there, had his followers prostrate themselves before him and coins had the inscription of his name in Raqqada. However, his official proclamation was in 910 when he entered the city himself. The scholars are divided, shall we include this bit of discussion in the entry? Bernd 09:15, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. 161.133.9.63 19:07, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Map (re: reqmap template)[edit]

A map of Fatimid territories would be different pretty much every 50 years or so.... AnonMoos 13:57, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

But still, a "height of Fatimid control" or "Fatimid control under super cool leader #1" would be very useful. Most pre-modern-nation-state-things change a bunch and not clearly, but, the approximations still give us good context. gren グレン 14:36, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Is it possible to somehow make it clear that the fatimids had different theological beliefs to the ismails of today i.e the aga khan etc


I think Tripoli is in the wrong spot on that map. I'm pretty sure Tripoli is in what is today Libya, and not Palestine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.22.14.225 (talk) 15:06, 1 October 2012 (UTC) Subscript text

Tripoli was a Greek word meaning "three cities", and there were plenty of places named that way: Tripoli (disambiguation)... -- AnonMoos (talk) 23:29, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Fatimid dynasty did not originate from Ifriqiya[edit]

According to this source: "The Empire of the Mahdi: The Rise of the Fatimids" by HEINZ HALM, the Fatimid Dynasty originated out of the Yemen. It was known that the one who was called the Mahdi was supposed to be a descendant of the prophet, which meant he was born near Arabia and specifically the Yemen. After failing to establish a power presence in what we call now Yemen and Iraq, the Fatimids (Ismaelis at that time), led by Abdallah the elder, fled to the Maghrib. There they gathered their followers, and revealed their hidden Imam; the Mahdi. From that moment on they were known as Fatimids and broke with other Ismaeli groups. These groups didn't accept the Mahdi as their leader and ruler of Islam. According to them he had no legitimate claim to be a descendant of the prophet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.161.47.27 (talk) 14:42, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

They first achieved a "power presence" in the Maghrib, as the book says... AnonMoos 18:22, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Expanding upon the fall?[edit]

Could somebody somehow expand on the fall of hte Fatimids? I don't feel the explanation is clear enough, I would expand it but I don't know the history myself very well. -- 01:46, 9 February 2008 71.191.141.180

I don't know that there's any one single overriding explanation. In some sense the basis of the Fatimids' rule was always a little tenuous, since they were a small Shi`ite elite ruling over a predominantly Sunni population. During the course of the 11th century A.D., the Zirids of the Maghrib declared independence, the Fatimids launched the Arab tribal invasions of the Maghrib in revenge (which left the agricultural economy of parts of northern Tunisia and northeastern Algeria in ruins for many centuries), there were some bad Fatimid rulers (most notably the "mad Caliph"), and the Turkish invasions and First Crusade resulted in expelling the Fatimids from the Levant area -- so that as a cumulative result, the Fatimids looked a whole lot less glorious in 1100 A.D than they had a century earlier. That was probably part of the reason why the Ismaili movement showed a tendency to split over leadership disputes around that time. AnonMoos (talk) 02:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Arab or Berber[edit]

So you think a group of lost Arabs from Yemen can brainwash the whole Berber nation in Africa to support them as a leaders. What kind of fairy tales are you spreading here? Fatimid dynasty was a pure Berber North African Dynasty, is that to difficult for you to understand. The fact that Berbers also speak Arabic has to do with the fact that Berbers are Muslims, and they practice their religion in the Classic Arabic language, but that doesn't make them Arabs. Imazighen (Berbers) in North Africa have never accepted a leader outside their own nation, and Imazighen in the North regions of North Africa were a very highly educated nation, since they had hunderd of year’s access to Roman and Greek science. Your stories are based on fairy tales of thousand and one night. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.210.70.123 (talk) 12:09, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

It's perhaps possible that in 909 AD they were more Berber than Arab, but they claimed to be Arab, and the exact genealogies can't be known now, so such a substitution as you made in the article is too simplistic to be useful. AnonMoos (talk) 16:33, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
I think the precedent unsigned post is totally justified, without the BERBER KUTAMA tribes, there will be no Fatimid dynasty ... the dynasty traces its origins to the Kutama berbers of the Aures mountains. 41.140.102.144 (talk) 08:17, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
Berbers were an important part of their early power base, but their main claim to legitimacy was elaborate Arab genealogies, and the last two centuries of their rule was centered in Egypt. AnonMoos (talk) 10:30, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
Would it be easier to just remove the whole arab / berber tag at the very front and just leave it a neutural issue? (RollingWave (talk) 01:49, 25 November 2010 (UTC))
Well, many historians consider them to be one of the four Arab caliphates of the early centuries of Islam (Rashidun, Umayyads, Abbasids, Fatimids). AnonMoos (talk) 03:56, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

2011[edit]

AnonMoos just tell us who are this historians? Becuase the famous historians like Ibn Khaudl have orte the the Fatimids is a Berber dynastie and also the Abbasids have considerd the Fatimids as a Berber dynastie. So who are this histroians which YOU are talking about. Give us EVIDENCE like I did. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zizouzenati (talkcontribs) 17:47, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm basing it on their legitimacy being based on a claimed descent from Ali ibn Abi Talib... AnonMoos (talk) 17:56, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
That claim is FALSE like mainy other Muslim leaders in this era are claiming to be decedents of Ali ibn abu talib. But that is not a historical EVIDENCE and Ali ib abu talib is not a HISTORIAN. Where are the names of the historians which you were talking about? Saddam hossein and the majority of the Arab leaders in this era are claiming to be decedent of Ali ibn abu talib.
Ibn Khaldun and the big Arab dynastie of the Abassids have considerd the Fatimids as a berber dynastie and that is also logic since they the Fatimids is establised in Berber Tunisia by the Khutama Berbers.
Don't spread lies or gives us EVIDENCE like I did.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zizouzenati (talkcontribs) 18:03, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
You may think it's false, but it's hard to say how you can know that for certain, and the claim was highly-significant towards their gaining political support and ruling power, and went a long way towards defining their political and historical identity. The Bohras and Aga Khan followers of today consider it highly important that the Fatimids were descended from Ali ibn Abi Talib. Furthermore, in modern Arab nationalist rhetoric, the Fatimids are often defined as one of the early Arab caliphates (see Pan-Arab colors etc.). AnonMoos (talk) 18:13, 6 September 2011 (UTC)


You are spreading lies. There is absolutely no Historian in the Middle ages and this Era who consider the Fatimids as Arabs. Are you teling us that Ibn Khaldun is telling lies and you are telling the Truth. What about the true Arabs like the Abbasids who considerd the Fatimids as Berbers, are they also telling lies. Read this book of Michael Brett and Elizabeth Fentress about the berbers and the Fatimids. And stop fooling around. You must be an Arab. http://books.google.nl/books?id=vdrAfKmUrLcC&pg=PA97&lpg=PA97&dq=berbers+fatimids&source=bl&ots=-GRqiw-gwB&sig=JTsIAMlPqWwsMcjJ3EPpsjdTtDU&hl=nl&ei=BWdmTtfGLcvo-gbTue36CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=berbers%20fatimids&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zizouzenati (talkcontribs) 18:37, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Whatever, dude -- it accomplishes nothing to accuse other people of lying when they merely happen to disagree with you. The Abbasids considered the Fatimids to be heretical enemies and rebels, so I don't know that their opinions have great importance today. You may know more about the subject than I do, but as long as you cavalierly ignore (i.e. dismiss without any cogent argument) highly-relevant facts such as that the Fatimids claimed crucial descent from Ali ibn Abi Talib, or that they're considered one of the four historical Arab caliphates by modern Arabic nationalists, then you don't make it any easier to take your views into account in the article. AnonMoos (talk) 22:29, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Please read 'Williams, Caroline. 1983. The Cult of 'Alid Saints in the Fatimid Monuments of Cairo, Part I'. Does the history written on stones help to strengthen the view that Fatimid can't be other than descent of Ali, who were strongly opposed by Abbasid, forced to live in occultation and fled to north Africa to safeguard Islam.--Md iet (talk) 09:46, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


Haha what kind of fairy tales are you telling me now??? I have given here true historical prove that the Fatimid’s are not Arabs. The claim, reluctantly admitted by Ibn Khaldun, was undoubtedly political in origin. The Kutama were the chosen people of the Fatimid’s. I am Dutch and our queen ancestors are Germans does that make Holland a German state and not a Dutch state? The Arab nationalists are LIARS. The famous Historian Ibn Khaldun has also wrote that the Fatimid’s are a Berber dynasty and different Arab historians have wrote that the Abbasids considered the Fatimid’s as Berbers. How the hell can one man control a Berber nation if they are not Berbers themselves? You are posting here Marvel and science fiction stories. Wikipedia is truly a joke. You people are claiming an ABORIGINAL North African nation to be a Middle Eastern Arab nation???? This is not world of war craft.My former Historians teachers warned me about Wikipedia that wikiepedia is just a foolish site with morons posting the most ridiculous stories. Go and read the Mugadimmah and other works of the true historian Ibn Khaldun. And the modern science has confirmed that there are NO Arabs in North Africa. North Africans don't share the same genes as the Arabs. Are this Arabs Fatimid’s disappeared from North Africa???? Haha oh god what a stupidity. Do you also know how many modern Arab and non Arab leaders claiming to be decedents of Ali ibn Abu Talib, and do you also know why? Zizouzenati (talk) 12:14, 8 September 2011 (UTC) Zizouzenati (talk) 11:56, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


Zizouzenati --
1) Things might proceed more smoothly if you refrained from intemperate language and pointless personal allegations. These violate official Wikipedia policies and do nothing to resolve any disputed issues with the article.
2) Some of what you say may be true, but unfortunately when you act as if the Fatimid claim to be descended from Ali ibn Abi Talib is unimportant, you end up sabotaging yourself, and make it difficult for other people to take you seriously -- because we know very well that the Fatimid claim to be descended from Ali ibn Abi Talib is historically very important.
3) In some parts of the Muslim world, claimed descendants of Muhammad/Fatima/Ali are known as "Sayyids" and/or wear green turbans. I never heard of any modern Arab rulers other than the sultans of Morocco who made a big deal of their claimed descent from Ali...
4) I find it rather laughable that you accuse me of being an Arab, when on several occasions Arabs have accused me of being a Jew! -- AnonMoos (talk) 16:38, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


I am not an uneducated fool as maybe you think that I am, it where not the Fatimid’s who where claiming to be the decedent of Ali ibn Abu Talib but ONE man which was their Leader Abdullah al-Mahdi Billah. This leader was chosen by the Kutama berbers. What you don't understand or don't want to understand is that the Fatimid CALIPHATE would never ever been EXISTED without mainly the Kutama Berbers and other Berber clans in North Africa.

The Fatimid Caliphate was founded in the homeland of the Berbers and among the Berbers, it where also the Berbers who wanted that Abdullah al-Mahdi Billah to be their leader. If The Berbers wanted to chop the head of Abdullah al-Mahdi Billah they could do that without any problem at all. That means his existence was dependend on the Berbers, his wife was Berbers.

The Berbers and mainly the Kutama were in that time at war against the Sunni ARAB Aghlabids, the SHIA sect gave them more reason to resist and fight the ARAB Aghlabids rule in their homeland and especially when they have a leader who is claiming to be the DECEDENT of Prophet Mohamed.

What the Arab nationalist are doing is trying to claim and take the credit of the Heritage of the Berber nation and trying to erase the Berber identity by making the Berbers some kind of stupid animals well that is a very fascist and racist approach of the history of the humankind.

The Berbers are the ones who are responsible of the fact that the Fatimid Caliphate was founded/established/created it were they who where the political and military force like Ibn Khaldun wrote. This is an undisputed fact which is shared by all historians. The thousands of people who where fighting and dying in Battles to create the Fatimid Caliphate where the Berbers not the Arabs. The Arabs like the Arabs Abbasids where their enemies. And I said that you are an Arab nationalist because these ridiculous stories of the Arab identity of the Fatimid Caliphate which you are posting here came from these Arab fascist/nationalist liars who are responsible of trying to erase the history of many nations in the Islamic world. But they will never succeed, the facts are well known by those who are well educated. Zizouzenati (talk) 22:11, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Dear Zizouzenati, The point and fight is not between educated and non educated but it is between faith / belief /facts Vs any other reasoning /justification by mare location or any other logic.
This is a fact that when Fatimid shifted to Cairo Under Al-Muizz Lideenillah, he brought all of his ancestor coffin up to Imam Abadullah to Cairo and buried at one place named as Mukalafat-al-Rasool at Imam Husain mosque well known to Islam. This indicate that if Fatimid were originated from north African area what is the need to carry back their ancestor to Egypt.
The logic that Arab can’t go to Africa and rule there is not so convincing. Few European gone to other part of world and ruled there and returned back to Europe doesn’t mean that they were African /Asian.--Md iet (talk) 06:59, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


Zizouzenati-- See my comments of "10:30, 21 November 2010" above: "Berbers were an important part of their early power base, but their main claim to legitimacy was elaborate Arab genealogies, and the last two centuries of their rule was centered in Egypt." -- AnonMoos (talk) 13:31, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

2015[edit]

The Fatimid dynasty in the Berber HOMELAND OF north west Africa (north Algeria) WAS NOT THE RESULT OF AN ARAB INVASION BUT THE RESULT OF THE DESTRUCTION AND EXTERMINATION OF THE ABASSID EMPIRE IN EAST ALGERIA, TUNSIA, LIBIYA AND EGYPT. There is nothing Arabic about them. Every single ruler or leader claims to be decedent of the Prophet for political and religious reasons. When it comes to North African history you and Wikipedia are a big joke for me, so get lost shithead and stay of the North African history homeland of the Berbers since the dawn of time. See the Battle of the nobles on Wikipedia and maybe you will learn how the Arabs were completely eradicated from the face of North Africa. 77.248.230.71 (talk) 09:58, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Coinage[edit]

Gold coin of Calif al-Mahdi, Kairouan, 912 CE. British Museum.
Gold coin of Calif al-Mahdi, Mahdiyya, 926 CE. British Museum.
Gold coin of Calif al-Muizz, Misr, Cairo, 969 CE. British Museum.

Some coins of the Fatimids. Feel free to inser them into the article. PHG (talk) 20:03, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


Flag[edit]

The current flag is green, but there are other sources on Wikipedia indicating that the Fatimid banner was just white (as contrasted to the Abbassid black). Can someone verify and update as necessary? MrOakes (talk) 10:23, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Can look at Pan-Arab colors, or Palestinian_flag#Symbolism (which for some reason is much more detailed than the "Pan-Arab colors" article itself). AnonMoos (talk) 13:16, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
It should be white. See Cambridge History of Egypt vol.I page 137 on the Fatimid conquest of Egypt, "On July 9, Jawhar himself led prayers in the Old Mosque of 'Amr in Fustat and the preacher, dressed now in Fatimid white in place of 'Abbasid black, recited the khutba for the first time in Egypt in the name of al-Mu'izz li-Din Allah".
130.195.200.87 (talk) 10:23, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
The whole concept of rectangular national flags is anachronistic to the Fatimid period, but there were dynastic colors. I'm not familiar with all the historical details, but in some contexts those who claimed direct descent from Muhammad used green, and probably for this reason green is often assigned to the Fatimids... AnonMoos (talk) 23:44, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
On 4/1/18, the flag was green on this page as I grabbed the link. Today, 4/2/18, it was white pointing to a 2012 book. Today, I did a brief search. The Economist (2015) says green ("The Shia Fatimid dynasty adopted the colour, as did Ali, the fourth caliph after whom the Shia—“partisans of Ali”—are named.).Jordan got its green from association with the Fatimid. jmswtlk (talk) 17:17, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Table of fatimid[edit]

Dear Gabagool, sorry for again interupt you in force ful removal,but as you don't like that some one else remove material you feel right ,others also can have same thinking. If some body can't understand language ,you want to others to read it ,The same logic apply here ,if you can't understand the way matter is presented, let other do it and don't remove. The table created is having all islam depicted in it, fatimid were main pillar of Islam and they chosen caliphate to let live fatimid islam.Hence please don't remove the table ,give your positive suugestions here ,let others to help improve the table in way you want. Main part is it should have information,second part is presentation which we all can help to improve. --Md iet (talk) 03:49, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Please do not confuse my removal of the table with any desire to stop you from editing. But, I am afraid, that the table in its current state is an utter mess which hardly give any meaning. It actually gives so little meaning, that I am somewhat amazed that you don't see how much of a mess it is. I don't really know where to start, because I don't understand what it is even trying to say. For instance, what is the point of all the "^ ^ ^" signs? Why are some of the text in bold, and why is some of the text in caps? What does any of "<SHIA I- -M- -A- -MA- -T-> <CHALI- -F- -A- -T>" mean? What is the point of putting the names in different places horisontaly in the various boxes? Why are there randomly put in various years together with the names? Most importantly, what is, and where are the chronology? The entire table is just a jibberish mess, I don't find anything meaningful about it. -TheG (talk) 21:06, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Hear hear. I can't make heads or tails of it either. Basic copyediting would help already: some things are in bold, some are in all-caps, some in both, and there are punctuation errors. Drmies (talk) 21:09, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
It is complete rubbish. Trying to improve it from its current state seems hopeless. But, I did however notice that it seems to include the exact same information which is found in the picture of a "Genealogical tree" which is already right next to the table in the article. What is the point of having the table too? -TheG (talk) 21:48, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Md_iet -- I know that your intentions are good, but maybe you should focus right now on improving the comprehensibility of article Mustaali... AnonMoos (talk) 06:38, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Fatimid Caliphate population[edit]

The current world population is about 30 times the world population during the time of the Caliphate's maximum geographic spread. Today, the Caliphate would have had an approximate population of 261,5 million. Divide that by 30 and the population in the year 969 would have been 8,7 million, so the 6,2 million quoted in this article sounds about right. However, the Arabic, Spanish, Dutch etc versions of this article, quote a population of 62 million. That sounds wrong, by a factor 10.145.53.130.13 (talk) 22:12, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

However, the population of other parts of the world has increased by a larger percentage than that of the middle east has. Any estimate should be cited... AnonMoos (talk) 06:19, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Not to meantion, the Maghareb region degraded considerablly after the early half of the medieval era. as well as Sicily. Maghareb region was still fairly furtile farming region in the early medieval era... though by modern times it's more semi desert. Sicily's degration was also well noted, it went from something akin to Andalusia / Northern Italy to the back waters of Italy.

(RollingWave (talk) 05:24, 17 January 2011 (UTC))

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This Could be better[edit]

Like seriously yall, this could be better. Do better next time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.244.32.35 (talk) 22:40, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Military System[edit]

I removed a paragraph from the "Military System" section. The reasons are the following: first, the paragraph is written in an unencyclopedic manner. Second, its source article is from what seems to be a "Shiite" partisan site, with a very obvious bias - the author of that article at one point claimed that it was in history one of the states which were treated most unjustly (come on now, it is an empire, for starters). Third, the paragraph assumes far more of the Fatimid Caliphate's motives and its perception of its role than is historically wise. Putting its forces in the defense of the Islamic world [against the Komnenid Emperors]? Please. The Caliphate's raison d'etre was its own propogation, and its primary ideological enemy was that other Caliphate over in Baghdad and those who supported it (the Seljuks, the Zengids...the rest of the Sunni world). TL;DR, partisans are bad for Wikipedia. I'm sick of armchair nationalists and their silly issues, and I guess if an expert's not around, I might as well cut out the bad myself for now.68.96.236.143 (talk) 00:52, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Wiki is to present all the views put forward in reliable sources. The language can be edited to suit. Deletion is not a solution please.--Md iet (talk) 11:38, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it is a solution. The site in question is not reliable; some sort of partisan Shi'a site written by someone intent upon glorifying the Fatimid Caliphate anachronistically (should I bring in rabid anti-Fatimid propaganda from Sunni ideologues of the era just to be "fair and balanced" in return? No?). There are already difficult questions raised when an editor use the much more reliable, scholarly Catholic Encyclopedia in relevant subjects (the ideal consensus seem to be to accept it, while being careful with its bias); by analogy, the same problem applies here -- without scholarly worth in comparison. I reiterate the problem: the view is anachronistic. The Isma'ili Fatimids' biggest problem was the rest of Islam, under the moral leadership of the Abbasid Caliphate, not the Romans or even the Crusaders late in its history. Its most dangerous military opponents were the Seljuk Turks and their successor states. Its most active diplomatic and missionary efforts were aimed at converting as many Muslims to the Isma'ili creed as possible. Not to mention, the whole schpiel, wrong as it is, already adds nothing whatsoever to the understanding of the Fatimid Military System. What does limited Fatimid combat with the Roman Empire has to do with anyone wanting to understand its military system? None. What was the whole point of trying to insinuate that Emperor Nikephoros was "hard on the Muslims" in juvenile prose? In fact, in that particular emperor's reign, the main theater of conflict between the two Mediterranean states was *Sicily*, not Syria, which the Fatimids who just conquered Egypt hadn't even reached yet. In short, everything about that paragraph is wrong, pointless, not even at the right section; ergo, I will delete again. But I will not insist beyond this; no point in a stupid edit war.

Speaking of which, among other issues, someone really need to remove the second map, which misleads terribly: it shows the Empire as it never existed, including Nubia (which was independent and friendly under the Kingdom of Makuria), vastly overestimated its stable control of Syria and the borders of Iraq, not to mention other peripheral regions, and integrated two distinct territorial phases - the North African phase, and the Levantine phase - into one.68.96.236.143 (talk) 19:52, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

If the site is suitable for giving material for Encyclo than please don't question about its content and deletion is not solution, I repeat. IF there is any other view on the topic with reliable source we can add that also to make information complete please.--Md iet (talk) 05:51, 8 June 2012 (UT

Today part of …[edit]

Honestly, what is the point of this list containing national flags? Does it confer clarity to the article? If you can’t read a map, it may be useful, though. And why two maps – isn’t the one provided with cities adequate enough? From an English language point of view, this article also needs a clean-up. Hirpex (talk) 10:18, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Sudan[edit]

According to the map on this article, in 969 most of modern day Sudan was under the control of the caliphate. This is directly contradicted by the article Kingdom of Makuria which states that northern Sudan was under the control of that Christian kingdom from 340-1276. Which is correct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.10.53.163 (talk) 13:08, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't know much about that period of history in that part of the world, but the maps in Colin McEvedy's Atlas of Medieval History consistently show the southern borders of Islamic realms at around 23°N latitude, or not far from the modern Sudan-Egypt border. If Makuria was stable and prosperous at the southern border of Islam for centuries, then it was very lucky, considering that lands lying along most other frontiers of Islam during that period were under constant threat of invasion... AnonMoos (talk) 11:29, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

ISIL chaliphate[edit]

ISIl chaliphate is a misnomer. it is not the chalipate in true sense but insurgents.It is not recognized by any other countries.there fore I am removing it from the side bar.Rukn950 (talk) 07:26, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

since when are caliphates about mutual recognition? How many "countries" did "recognize" the Fatimid caliphate? --dab (𒁳) 17:49, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Tags removed[edit]

The article was recently WP:TAGBOMBed by Summichum (talk · contribs).[1] Ironically (I presume), the user's talkpage is graced by the instruction to "refrain from posting template messages here". I have removed the tags, but of course if there are issues with the page, you are welcome to point them out constructively. --dab (𒁳) 17:59, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Goldschmidt 84-86 Source[edit]

What is the Goldschmidt 84-86 reference source? No other details are given besides that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bolk17 (talkcontribs) 16:01, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Morocco[edit]

Morocco was a part of the Fatimid empire. See this article List of rulers of Morocco, section "Idrisid dynasty". Morocco was conquered by the Fatimids, though for a very short period of time. But it was a part of the Fatimid empire at it's height.Arman ad60 (talk) 10:21, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Assessment comment[edit]

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Fatimid Caliphate/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

this article is pretty short, considering that the fatimids have a long history. also, it would be useful if someone added information that connects the rise of the fatimids with the decline of the abbasid caliphate. this would clarify how the fatimids rose to power. also, expand on the Fatimid culture and fall of the fatimid empire.

--Skydude176 (talk) 23:10, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Article has improved substantially since 2008, upgrading to C class. Bosstopher (talk) 00:57, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Last edited at 00:57, 10 February 2015 (UTC). Substituted at 14:59, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Map[edit]

Hi, I have changed the map of the Fatimid empire. Morocco was never a part of the Fatimid empire. The source above has been given from a Wikipadia aricle, this article, List of rulers of Morocco. Look at the list, it is mentioned there that, the Fatimid empire ruled Morocco, in the first phase, from 922 CE to 925 CE. And in the second phase, from 927CE to 937 CE. So the region Morocco was never under complete control of the Fatimid empire. The Fatimids conquered that territory but could not hold it on for so long. So, Morocco can never be called a "province" of the Fatimid empire. This is why I have changed the map of the Fatimid empire.Hector 2016 (talk) 20:13, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Atlantic Ocean[edit]

Hey, random BoN here, but I couldn't help but notice that the intro paragraph lists the Fatimid's territory as stretching from the Red Sea to the Atlantic Ocean, when in fact, they were never near the Atlantic. Can someone please fix this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:191:8300:AD30:50F1:3C3D:4325:AD71 (talk) 00:40, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

During an early phase of their history, they ruled over today's northern Algeria and attacked Morocco, but I guess they never ruled over Morocco... AnonMoos (talk) 18:00, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
In which case, the empire didn't stretch to the Atlantic at any point in time. From the Red Sea to contemporary Northern Algeria, anyone? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:38, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
Now I've noticed that this has actually been discussed above on this talk page -- according to List of rulers of Morocco, they did rule over Morocco for two periods totalling about 12 years, for what that's worth (the world history book I was consulting was not detailed enough to include that). However, the last period of rule over Morocco ended about 32 years before the conquest of Egypt, so it would seem that there was no one moment in time when they ruled from the Atlantic to the Red Sea... AnonMoos (talk) 12:10, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
As it's the lead, and should be kept succinct. How does, "...spanned a large area of North Africa, extending from the Red Sea in the east as far as the Atlantic Ocean in the west at various points in its existence." or, alternatively, "...spanned a large area of North Africa, extending from the Red Sea in the east as far as the Atlantic Ocean in the west asynchronously in its existence." strike you? It's a little cumbersome, but alternative descriptions wouldn't be as terse. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 09:18, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
@AnonMoos: @Iryna Harpy: The Atlantic ocean should be more about their vassalage, I have read it somewhere and I'm stil looking, one way for Islamic kingdoms, sultnates or poltical entity to acquire vassalage is to have their coins minted and have a Friday Sermon (Khutbah) invoke the ruler's name, at the height of their power, the Fatimids Khutbah could be heard all the way to Atlantic ocean, meaning all North Africa was under their direct or indirect/vassalage rule. They never ruled DIRECTLY all of North Africa. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 21:26, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
@Alexis Ivanov: That makes it even more problematic. Perhaps 'direct influence' all the way to the Atlantic is closer to the mark?... although that's still not terribly clear (and probably misleading for the reader). Any thoughts on how to handle it without being too long-winded until you can check your sources? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:37, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
@Iryna Harpy: I think it will be less problematic if we focused on their influence, the influence of the Fatimid is what the reader should undestand. I think it will be logistical nightmare with the large swaths of desert to rule directly, with every rebellious Berber tribe on the rise in that time, it will take a week for me to find, since I have to re-read that portion of Northern African history. The way I remembered was they had small rulers who were their vassals all the way to the Atlantic, and the period of these vassalage was very small, these men were quick to rebel and there is no way Fatimids will leave Egypt or send an army all the way to the west. In fact I believe they told certain bedoin tribes (Banu Hilal) to migrate to the west which caused disasters. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 21:47, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
@Alexis Ivanov: That makes sense. The nature of the area meant that there were some major cities/centres of trade and influence, but far more territory inhabited by nomadic ethnic groups who had localised control of routes, etc. This being the case, 'spanned' is a perfectly good choice of descriptor. If it 'ruled' or 'controlled' the entire area described, then those would be the descriptors used. In other words, there isn't really a problem with the opening of the lead, it's just been overthought because of the comment by the IP who started this thread. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:07, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
That sounds good to me, fair enough Alexis Ivanov (talk) 08:49, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

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al-Fātimiyyūn[edit]

The 'Origins' section of this article says of Abd Allah al-Akbar that 'Thus his name was al-Fātimiyyūn "Fatimid". This is not correct. Al-Fātimiyyūn is the plural form, meaning 'the Fatimids' as correctly stated in the first line of the article. The correct form for an individual man is "al-Fatimi". I've changed it. Mccapra (talk) 23:32, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

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Fatimid amongst Shia Imams[edit]

A chart is added on the side bar making Fatimid position amongst Shia Imam history. This is informative piece of work with non repletion in the article consuming almost nil physical space and only about 2000 soft words.

Descendants family chart was consuming lot of main space, about 4000 words of soft space and was repeating list of Fatimids, hence removed , some what justified. On the same explanation side chart on Fatimid position amongst Shia Imam history is removed, which seems unjustified. Let the readers see the matter and comment before hasty removal.--Md iet (talk) 14:26, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

I've skimmed the discussion at TfD, and I share the concerns raised there. I don't think simply including this chart is helpful because the casual reader won't know what kind of relationships it represents. What I would propose instead is adding a paragraph that explains the claims of spiritual lineage made by the Fatimids and including a collapsed, expandable version of the template (or a similar template, if it's still problematic in detail) next to it for further information. Eperoton (talk) 23:45, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

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