Talk:Fiesta Nacional de España

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WikiProject Spain (Rated Start-class, Mid-importance)
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Columbus?[edit]

I don't think Columbus' "finding" is ever mentioned. "Hispanic Day" is a relatively new term. Most peopel call the day "el Día del Pilar". El Pilar being the patroness of Spain. I think this page needs to be researched some more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gsaindon (talkcontribs) 02:12, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Any citations there? Someone brought this up at Public holidays in Spain and I did some cursory research -- which confirmed Columbus as being the central figure (main celebration at Plaza de Colon). Granted, my source was a couple Web sites and the Spanish Wikipedia. What little I've found is posted to Talk:Public_holidays_in_Spain, and certainly open to more additions by people better versed in this subject than me. ``` W i k i W i s t a h ``` 04:07, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Merge with Columbus Day[edit]

There's nothing that's reliably cited in this article that doesn't reappear at Columbus Day which discusses all Columbus celebrations in all countries. Perhaps some more material can be added over there, but there's no reason to keep this a separate article.--Cúchullain t/c 06:57, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Cited or not, this article has a different scope than that of Columbus Day. This article is about Spain's National Day (you know, like the 4th of July, but in Spain, the European country...just in case) while Columbus Day is more about Día de la Raza, The Americas, whatever. These are clearly separate concepts and celebrations and I can't see why someone should remove all this information and substitute it by a mere "it is Spain's National Day" while merging it with something only secondarily related, all because this article lacks citations which are a google search away and all without having even bothered to get anyone else's opinion....is that what administrators are taught these days? OMG... Mountolive le déluge 03:23, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Merged[edit]

After nearly a year with no citations added, I have redirected the article back to Columbus Day, where all the international Columbus celebrations are discussed. One user above suggested that "Hispanic Day" has a different scope than the Columbus celebrations of the Americas, but there is nothing in the article to suggest this is the case (let alone any citation of a reliable source that would corroborate it). As the article says, Hispanic Day "commemorates the exact date of 1492 when Christopher Columbus first set a foot in America." If anyone is interested in expanding the article, they will need to track down reliable sources discussing the day, and explain why the material needs its own article.--Cúchullain t/c 13:14, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

By the way, I would have merged some of the newer material into the Columbus celebrations article, but since nothing was sourced, there's nothing to merge.--Cúchullain t/c 13:18, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
On a side note, there is something I dont get in your reasoning. Your insistence in quoting...what does it have to do with the merging? Which is your point in the equation unquoted=merge?
This said, I do not support this merge whatsoever. Columbus Day in Spain is not celebrated as such, but as Spain's National Day, so the focus is quite different. It is obviously a domestic holiday and as such it deserves its own article. Can't see what's the big problem with that, really...
In either case, you know you should not do this kind of drastic edits without consensus, let alone on the face of reasoned opposition. MOUNTOLIVE fedeli alla linea 02:21, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
The "insistence on quoting" is not mine, it's Wikipedia policy. From WP:V: "Any material lacking a reliable source may be removed." It goes on: "...how quickly this should happen depends on the material in question and the overall state of the article. Editors might object if you remove material without giving them enough time to provide references, especially in an underdeveloped article." It's been almost a year, that's plenty of time for others to find sources to back up the contention that "Hispanic Day" is different enough from the other Columbus celebrations to require its own article. But that hasn't been done. In the spirit of moving forward I (re-)affected the merge, which is quite a reasonable solution, I think. Nothing drastic - the same material can be found at the Columbus Day article. You disagree, but the burden of evidence is on you to back up your assertions with reliable sources.--Cúchullain t/c 13:40, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

October 2009[edit]

I was bold and moved the page to Fiesta Nacional de España, as it was clear that the various problems I have raised are not going to be addressed. As I showed at the AfD, the name "Hispanic Day" is not only associated with Spain (or even October 12). If Spain's national day is to have its own article, that title is inappropriate. Of course this still leaves the glaring sourcing issues.--Cúchullain t/c 20:33, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

A bit of a re-write[edit]

I've done a bit of a re-write, to clarify the link, or not, with the Columbus Day/Dia de la Raza celebration in Latin America. I think the Fuller comment about there being various national days in the past, and this being part of the reconciliation process in Spain today, would benefit with being expanded, but I can't find anything about it. Does anybody know any more? Moonraker12 (talk) 17:37, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

PS Should this be moved to "National Day (Spain)"? Moonraker12 (talk) 17:40, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

I can't seem to access the Molina source via Google Books anymore, so I can't see what it says about previous days. There are a few things wrong here, though. The source says the name was changed to from Dia de la Raza to Dia de la Hispanidad in 1957 to emphasize the "Hispanidad" part, rather than to remove the word "Raza". I'll correct this. Also, I don't know how other articles on "national days" in non-English speaking countries handle the article titles, but it be instructive to check.--Cúchullain t/c 18:07, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
I notice you undid my re-write of this, and the "Spain" section at Columbus Day. You objected to the phrase “to avoid the negative connotations of the term Raza; which is fair enough ( I came across it when I looked into this, but can’t lay my hands on the source, so it’s best out ‘til I can find it again).
But what was the justification for the wholesale revert?
It is highly simplistic to say "Since 1987, Spain has celebrated the anniversary of Columbus's arrival in the Americas as its Fiesta Nacional or "National Day",Or “The day is held on the anniversary of Christopher Columbus's arrival in the Americas", as if that was the reason.
The people of Spain, and the Spanish Armed Forces, and the people of Aragon, all have their own reasons for celebrating October 12th; , and none of them primarily include Columbus’s arrival in America.
I believe my arrangement of the text explains this; If you do not agree, perhaps you could explain why not, rather than just deleting it outright. Moonraker12 (talk) 10:16, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
Please don't be offended, I'm simply trying to improve the encyclopedia, as are you; it was nothing personal. I didn't "undo" your rewrite; most of the material was left entirely unchanged. I just rearranged some parts slightly to give some background on it, and corrected a few slight errors as I explained. As I said, I don't believe you were following the source in a few places. First, Spain's national day is not itself "celebrated widely across Latin America as Dia de la Raza". It is the Columbus anniversary that is celebrated in various places, including Spain; Spain simply chose this previously celebrated holiday to be its "national day" in 1981. And yes, according to the source, October 12 was chosen explicitly to be the national day because it was the anniversary of Columbus' arrival (and was already widely celebrated), and this bears saying.
Second, as I explained, the change TO Dia de la Hispanidad (or Fiesta de la Hispanidad) FROM Dia de la Raza was the part that was done to "[emphasize] the link to the Hispanidad, the international Hispanic community". "Dia de la Raza" doesn't have anything to do with Hispanidad. This is significant, as Hispanidad is a slightly different concept than la Raza. I don't know that Dia de la Raza was ever officially celebrated in Spain under that name. I also don't know where the 1957 date comes from; it's not in the source.
Now, your revert of my edits removed all of this, as well as removing some further sourced material I added.--Cúchullain t/c 12:59, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
If I over-reacted, I apologize.
I take your first point (I've amended that bit): but it was the arrangement of the information that was the problem, rather than the content. As for the underlying assumption (here, and in an edit summary on the other page) "October 12 was chosen as "National Day" specifically because it was Columbus Day"; this is the point at issue. Spain did not choose Oct 12 “specifically because it was Columbus Day”; Columbus did not discover Spain! And Columbus Day is a US holiday, not a Spanish one. What Spain did have was a shared festival with Latin America (whose celebration is the Dia de la Raza, not Columbus Day) and which has changed its purpose to be a national day. To pose an analogy, the United States has a public holiday on December 25, which is the Christian festival of Jesus’ birth; but it would be pretty inaccurate (not to say contentious) to say “The US celebrates Jesus’s birthday, in line with other Christian countries”, wouldn't it?
As for the second, The change from Raza to Hispanidad is treated at length on the Spanish WP article, but I’m still looking for English sources. I’ll take another crack at it when I get back from holiday, if that's OK with you. Moonraker12 (talk) 12:45, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
As I said, according to the source, October 12 was chosen as the national day specifically because it was the anniversary of Columbus' arrival in the New World, and was already being celebrated as such. That's all the text said. The only mention of Columbus Day was to say that other countries celebrate the same day as Dia de la Raza or Columbus Day, which is true. A better analogy would be to say "Since 18xx, the United States has had a federal holiday on December 25, the Christian festival of Jesus' birth".
On the Hispanidad bit, again, the problem is that you've altered the sentences to tie "Spain's connection to the Hispanidad" to the name Dia de la Raza rather than Dia de la Hispanidad. The line was just in there originally to give some explanation for the name Dia de la Hispanidad. It's not really accurate to say the Spanish chose the name "Dia de la Raza" to emphasize the connection to the hispanidad, as the concept of hispanidad didn't exist at the time Dia de la Raza celebrations first arose, and was specifically different from the concept of la raza.
The further problem is that you've attributed material to the source that doesn't actually appear in it. I looked at the Spanish article, and unfortunately it has very few citations itself, so it won't be a lot of use to us here. I'm going to go ahead and remove the mis-cited material and add back the material I added that you removed. Once you find better sources we can incorporated them as well.--Cúchullain t/c 15:03, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
Done. Also, the more I look into it the more it appears the 1957 date for Dia de la Hispanidad is just totally wrong. According to this it was first celebrated in 1935. I don't know how reliable that is, but obviously we can't be attributing to the Prakke book something it doesn't actually say.--Cúchullain t/c 16:04, 21 April 2011 (UTC)