Talk:Finasteride

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Society and Culture Section[edit]

@Jojomuju: there doesn't seem to be a good reason to take this information out of the article. If you look at WP:MEDMOS you will see there is a section under society and culture that includes legal issues. Beyond just that many people would be interested in seeing this information from an encyclopedic standpoint whether it may be doctors, scientists, consumers, or journalists. You only state that unresolved lawsuits don't belong here but that is neither supported by WP:MEDMOS nor pertinent because the US cases have been resolved.98.7.48.66 (talk) 23:10, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

The issue is there wasn't good reason to put it in. The liability lawsuits are in the controversy section. Listing new on-going litigation, which is meaningless trivia in the content of pharmacology articles, especially in its own section, is giving undue weight to that section which already summarizes those issue. A similar situation has arisen in this article before as per the archives. The new edit by an IP editor doesn't add any new information and could be considered, like I noted in my edit, borderline advocacy. Also, conflicts of interests need to be disclosed, and I notice only reverts to this finasteride article from your IP; if you don't have one, my bad. Other editors are free to take a look here at the diff. I'll tag some folks in WikiMedicine, and see if they can shine some light on this also. Jojomuju (talk) 07:43, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
I think it is appropriate for the article to note that there have been some lawsuits, but until the matter is settled, I agree with Jojomuju that it should be presented in a minimal fashion. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:31, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
I don't have any conflicts of interest. https://anewmerckreviewed.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/life-propecia-settle-agr-04-09-18.pdf You will see that Merck resolved about 600 of the cases on confidential terms. Many other articles for things facing product liability have their own sections on the topic. Glyphosate is just one example and that has many references to the controversy and those cases aren't close to being resolved. I don't think a huge amount needs to be said, but given this is an encyclopedia it is very reasonable to mention the existence and settlement of cases in the US and the approval of a class action in Canada. The article wouldn't seem balanced to me without a proper summary of what is a culturally significant issue. 2604:2000:E0CF:5100:853D:2E38:28BB:754 (talk) 01:32, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
@Doc James: @Jytdog: My recent, good faith edits were reverted by Jojomuju even after they were reviewed and slightly edited by Doc James immediately following my edit. These points were a neutral stating of the facts supported via third-party sources after news events about the cases and settlements this year. I'm a bit surprised they were reverted, especially after I used several other pharma Wikipedia pages as a template for unbiased and encyclopedic creation of this type of content. Now, after further review, I notice that this user, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jojomuju, has only 185 edits and the bulk of them deal with this page. Their initial edits were on this page and were immediately questioned by Jytdog as being a potential Conflict of Interest. It appears the account was created in April and has attempted to become the gate-keeper for this page, even as Jytdog and Doc James were monitoring the page very closely. Then, the user entered into a COI discussion against @Sbelknap:. Warranted or not, I'm curious if this was just to mask a potential COI of their own. Diving into this user's edits even more, I continue to question a potential relationship between them and the pharmaceutical company behind this product. Please advise. 23.118.36.69 (talk) 19:21, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
You are a SPA account yourself, editing solely about ongoing litigation, yet are accusing others of vested interest. This page is a nightmare of advocacy. Jytdog (talk) 19:40, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
Settlements are not ongoing litigation. 23.118.36.69 (talk) 19:48, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
That is true; they do of course inform the ongoing litigation and weigh into how people consider starting new ones. And your edit included ongoing litigation. I think I have nothing more to say to you. I have no time for bullshit and misdirection.Jytdog (talk) 19:51, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
I intend to keep the neutrality of this article and combat advocacy. Instead of accusing people of COI when you are clearly a SPA account, it's better to make informed, thoughtful edits to controversial pages like this one. I mentioned the issue you had on the WikiMedicine page, and am awaiting more responses, but in the meantime it's best not to hammer your edits down everyone's throats and collaborate. Jojomuju (talk) 02:25, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

@Doc James: Can you please come add a sense of reason in this discussion? Jytdog has just reverted a sentence that was on this page from May 2016 (added per Talk page discussion https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Finasteride&diff=prev&oldid=721492661) until I edit it last week. Until consensus can be reached on the updated wording and references, I was simply trying to revert back to the wording that has appeared on the page for 1.5 years. Then, suddenly, they aren't appropriate? Please advise. 23.118.36.69 (talk) 20:08, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

What sort of source is this http://s21.q4cdn.com/755037021/files/doc_financials/quarterly/2016/Q1/1Q16-Form-10-Q.pdf#page=19
Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:36, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
I was curious of that, too. It was on the page you both patrolled for 1.5 years. 23.118.36.69 (talk) 17:31, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
It appears to be a dead link for Merck's 10-Q filing, which is submitted by US public companies to the SEC. It is used to inform the public about the business operations. A working link can be found at http://d1lge852tjjqow.cloudfront.net/CIK-0000310158/4090aa36-4d97-4244-ad16-e50143954bfe.pdf 98.7.48.66 (talk) 00:23, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Proposed new section[edit]

Settlements[edit]

On April 9, 2018, Merck agreed to settle with a plaintiff committee of 562 cases who were suing for damages caused by taking finasteride.[1][2]

References

--— Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.118.36.69 (talkcontribs) 19:50, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

The 2nd ref doesn't mention the settlements. And sign your posts. Jytdog (talk) 19:55, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
Then let's just use the first reference only. Can you please add this new section? Thanks. 23.118.36.69 (talk) 20:03, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
Looks like a unsuitable/sensational source. For discussion about what might "kill" we need WP:MEDRS. Alexbrn (talk) 05:04, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
WP:MEDRS only applies to medical claims which isn't relevant to the discussion here. The article is suitable for referencing a verifiable fact. Per Wiki, Vice is a "print magazine that is focused on arts, culture, and news topics" making it particularly suitable for a reference in the society and culture section of this page. Nobody is using it to source a medical claim. At the very least, nobody seems to be objecting to including a mention of the legal cases if they are settled. Maybe people here only said that because they didn't realize the cases had been settled. While this article suffices for stating a fact, you can also use the original court filing which can be found at the following link - https://anewmerckreviewed.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/life-propecia-settle-agr-04-09-18.pdf 2604:2000:E0CF:5100:DCED:F73B:9B4D:F96E (talk) 14:24, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
It appears that WP:MEDRS only applies to biomedical information and, per Wikipedia:Biomedical_information § What_is_not_biomedical_information?, legal issues are not considered biomedical information. This suggested addition using the first reference is appropriate. WestWorld42018 (talk) 18:29, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
That is true, if it is proposed only to use the source to support the legal issue. But asserting that damages were "caused by taking finasteride" in Wikipedia's voice is a biomedical assertion. This source is also a rather fringey/sensational first-person feature - so just not good. If there are decent secondary sources discussing the legal issue there might be a case for saying inclusion was WP:DUE. Alexbrn (talk) 04:27, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
The text you want taken out doesn't "assert damages were caused by taking finasteride" so your point is off-topic. You are moving the benchmark by which you say the edit should be included which suggests you have a clear POV on the matter. Nobody else seems to agree with you so it doesn't appear you are on the side of consensus here.98.7.48.66 (talk) 17:25, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
That is the text proposed at the head of this section. Alexbrn (talk) 18:12, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
The reference appears adequate for this section of the article as it has a byline from a regular contributor to the publication. I suggest we omit the phrase that troubles you in order to reach consensus. WestWorld42018 (talk) 18:01, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
I suggest we omit this entirely unless a serious source can be found. It is undue. Alexbrn (talk) 19:16, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
Maybe that's helpful: https://www.lexislegalnews.com/articles/25761 M9c (talk) 19:58, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
A recycled press release? Not helpful. Alexbrn (talk) 18:10, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
It's an article from a respected publisher of legal news. M9c (talk) 19:31, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
Lexis Nexis is a big legal publisher, but this is just relaying Mealey's press release. If there were some secondary source providing analysis, then there could be an argument for inclusion. Is there such a source? Alexbrn (talk) 19:54, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
Would an article about the case from a reliable newspaper (say, the guardian) be such a source? Apologies for the question, I'm rather new here and not yet familiar with the conventions. I don't know of any such newspaper article, however, it's also not clear to me what that would add in terms of reliability. In fact, newspaper articles about findings in science and medicine for example are often much less reliable than the original sources.M9c (talk) 23:55, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
I agree with Alexbrn; where is a legitimate reliable source that analyzes this information? Also, is there any other primary source of this settlement information that reinforces the information in the press release? Jojomuju (talk) 21:11, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
Mealey's isn't a "recycled press release". LexisNexis is one of the world's leading organizations for legal research and Mealey's is one of the news services it provides. I already posted the primary source that shows the establishment of a confidential settlement. The court document is originally linked from a blog that covers all kinds of topics related to the drug's manufacturer. https://anewmerckreviewed.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/life-propecia-settle-agr-04-09-18.pdf 98.7.48.66 (talk) 00:30, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
  • 2 notes. I just searched both google and a university library for sources about this. Nothing other than what was found above; nobody cared. Second note, and this is just a "personal knowledge" thing - settling 562 cases for $5M is indeed not worth talking about; its a nuisance payment for Merck and that the plaintiffs accepted it can only mean they thought their case was very weak. Jytdog (talk) 01:32, 1 November 2018 (UTC) (strike Jytdog (talk) 15:52, 1 November 2018 (UTC))
    • The settlement, per the primary and secondary sources, was confidential so you can't say how much it was for unless you know something that we don't. There were several sources that reference the settlement so it was a matter of interest. With the currently available sources, people are only suggesting two sentences about it.98.7.48.66 (talk) 02:15, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
      • Hm. I am not sure where I got the notion it was ~$5M and I cannot find the source for that now (I looked at boatloads). I've struck. Jytdog (talk) 15:52, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

───────────────────────── "Several sources"? - the question has not been answered: is there a reliable secondary source giving some analysis of this so it rises to the level of due accepted knowledge? If not, it's not worthy of inclusion - and the push to do so savours of WP:ADVOCACY. In lieu of decent sources I suggest we're done here. Alexbrn (talk) 09:22, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

But that's exactly the article on vice.com referenced above. M9c (talk) 09:41, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, but sensational claptrap like an amateurish op-ed entitled "I Need to Quit Hair Loss Drugs Before They Kill Me" is exactly the sort of thing we need to avoid. Alexbrn (talk) 09:46, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
Ok, I agree. Still don't see how a newspaper article would add much in terms of reliability though, most newspaper articles would also just be based on the sources we discussed above. M9c (talk) 10:03, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
Vice is a fully reliable source and it is backed up by the primary source document. In fact, the primary source is all that is needed as it is not a medical statement. You are the only one making the argument that it isn't a valid source and the consensus of multiple editors disagrees with you. The suggestion is to put in a couple sentences of factual statements. We are willing to work with you but you don't seem open to compromise and are advocating for your own POV. If you are unwilling to work with consensus then consensus stands. 98.7.48.66 (talk) 01:33, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
It is really UNDUE. The fact that all we have is the tossed off line in Vice and a legal newsletter report is not really sufficient. Compare with the Vioxx settlements for example - when I went looking I found those discussed in the NYT, the WSJ, etc. The world didn't care and so neither does WP. Jytdog (talk) 01:55, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
Due and undue weight refer to different viewpoints, rather than statements of fact. You are twisting guidelines here. As a separate issue, the Vioxx litigation receives its own section on the Vioxx page, a mention in the lede, and ten full paragraphs. What is suggested here is two sentences so your comparison is completely a false equivalence. You have a history of wikilawyering to whitewash this entire page.2604:2000:E0CF:5100:21D6:C9A8:ACF7:C3A7 (talk) 13:17, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
I agree. The simple statement about the resolution of a legal matter is a fact, not a debatable viewpoint. It is more than DUE. To deny it is whitewashing per NPOV means neutral editors, not neutral content. Also, when stating facts, even primary sources are acceptable. A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge. via WP:PRIMARY. I would suggest this primary source of an SEC filing from Merck disclosing the settlement and amount. It reads "On April 9, 2018, Merck and the Plaintiffs’ Executive Committee in the MDL and the Plaintiffs’ Liaison Counsel in the NJ Coordinated Proceedings entered into an agreement to resolve the above mentioned Propecia/Proscar lawsuits for an aggregate amount of $4.3 million."[1] WestWorld42018 (talk) 22:32, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
This is a much better source, in my opinion; although, I wonder if the details of the next sentence should be summarized as well. Maybe something like "On April 9, 2018, Merck and the Plaintiffs’ Executive Committee in the MDL and the Plaintiffs’ Liaison Counsel in the NJ Coordinated Proceedings entered into an agreement to resolve the above mentioned Propecia/Proscar lawsuits for an aggregate amount of $4.3 million. The settlement is subject to contingencies including a clawback provision based on plaintiff participation." In other words, Merck could potentially recoup a portion of that money depending on participation, which impacts how much the final settlement amount is. Jojomuju (talk) 00:23, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
I don't really feel that level of detail is necessary. However, we should also explore the paragraph above that in the filing regarding ongoing lawsuits. In this NPOV tutorial, it states that adding content about ongoing legal matters is acceptable. From the above section of this Talk page, I notice reverted edits mentioning cases from Canada that also appear adequately sourced. I'll look at those further and report back. WestWorld42018 (talk) 22:48, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
Yay there is the source. I remembered it as 4.9 so rounded to 5. It is even less. This is trivia not worth mentioning, as demonstrated by no serious secondary sources giving discussion to this - all we have is the tossed off line in the Vice piece and the trade magazine churnalism piece. It is UNDUE. Jytdog (talk) 16:12, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
It is obviously not the source you used to get to the settlement amount. Do you even know where to access or find SEC filings? I think it is currently worthy of inclusion and will wait on other editors to see where consensus lies. 2604:2000:E0CF:5100:65FB:CB44:D9A7:62AF (talk) 16:51, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
Is this section still open? If there are no decent sources then this tittle-tattle is undue/advocacy-directed. Alexbrn (talk) 17:16, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
anybody who works on business topics is aware of edgar. for pete's sake. Jytdog (talk) 20:09, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
This section, actually more expanded than this proposed statement, is DUE. The primary reference is adequate for this factual statement as I've stated above. To not include this statement and brief content about the other cases is whitewashing. WestWorld42018 (talk) 01:25, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
WEIGHT (which "DUE" is about) is driven by independent, secondary sources, of which there are zero. The argument you are making is that the source is verified (a different policy, WP:V), which is not the same as the WP:NPOV policy in which the concepts of due and undue weight are found. "DUE" doesn't mean "I like it" and "UNDUE" doesn't mean "I don't like it". Again compare with the Vioxx settlements - boatloads of independent sources about them, because they were seen as a big deal out there in the real world. Jytdog (talk) 01:38, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
Again, I point to NPOV means neutral editors, not neutral content which states "A lack of such content may be an indication that editors have exercised whitewashing and censorship. It is a serious violation of NPOV to use censorship and whitewashing to remove any non-neutral opinions, facts, biases, or sources." I am not saying this needs some huge section similar to other articles, however, to give it no mention would be whitewashing. I edit a lot of sports articles and using primary sourcing is commonplace when presenting facts. WestWorld42018 (talk) 02:43, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
To me, it comes down to whether this info is DUE or not. Like Jytdog said, just because it's verified doesn't make it worth including. Since the controversy section already mentions that Merck is a defendant in x number of product liability lawsuits, what value does adding this settlement amount they've allocated, derived from this SEC filing, add to the article—or does it simply amount to trivia and undue weight to that section? Perhaps we can finalize this section, though? It seems like editors members are going around in circles with this. Jojomuju (talk) 19:26, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
It seems even you are going around in circles. You were ready to add the content with the primary source just last week. See above. WestWorld42018 (talk) 19:58, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
I disagree; I was being collaborative and agreed that the source you provided was better if consensus was reached to keep that info in the article. I don't personally think it should be, though, and initially edited it out of the article. Jojomuju (talk) 22:38, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

───────────────────────── Again WEIGHT is driven by independent secondary sources. You can continue WP:BLUDGEONing this talk page with incorrect descriptions of the [{WP:WEIGHT]] policy if you like, but you are not going to get consensus here and continuing will likely lead to community action. You can pursue one of the steps in WP:DR for content, but the community is very likely to reject it because of the lack of secondary sources needed per WEIGHT. You will do as you will. Jytdog (talk) 20:34, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. I just have experienced this same issue with primary sources on a page about college football recently. I'm still learning. WestWorld42018 (talk) 20:47, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
I hear you about working on sports pages. In all pop culture topics the boundary between WP and the blogosphere is very thin because there are so many crappy sources and people use them freely. On the health and medicine the literature is very well defined and the boundary between WP and the blogosphere is very clear and very bright for the most part. We use only high quality sources on these topics; trying to drive content into pages based on crappy refs will waste everyone's time. Jytdog (talk) 20:52, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
Jytdog, you are the one WP:Bludgeoning the talk page with your incorrect application of due and undue weight. [WP:DUE] very specifically refers to subjective viewpoints and does not pertain to facts which are verifiable. I agree with WestWorld that your advocacy amounts to whitewashing, especially when the suggestion is to include two sentences. The proposal is not to include a full ten paragraph summary with currently available sources, but more detail will be warranted as the issue is further investigated.2604:2000:E0CF:5100:65A5:C781:5029:BE44 (talk) 23:44, 11 November 2018 (UTC)