Talk:Flag of Canada

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Featured article Flag of Canada is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophy This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on June 14, 2008.

Someone is screwing up this article, and it ain't me[edit]

Is this why I was blocked for 10 days, or something? This is bad and this page is acting all screwy but it isn't my fault. Could someone explain what's going on? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.18.125.215 (talk) 05:45, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


Leaf image on flag here has incorrect proportions. See http://www.pch.gc.ca/pgm/ceem-cced/symbl/df2-eng.cfm for proper shape of esecially the bottom part of the leaf.


Article has copyedit issues[edit]

Right now, this article is going through WP:FAC, and some copyedit issues have been brought up. They can be found here. If anyone has time, feel free to help fix them. I will continue to work on them until the person who brought up the issues is satisfied. Thanks! Gary King (talk) 04:14, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Still to do: Fill in the history section on the early days: the beginning unofficial (and official at sea) use of the Red Ensign shortly after Confederation and its updates, the 1920s commission to develop a flag (abandoned), Mackenzie King's 1945 order-in-council to permit use of Red Ensign until a flag is adopted, the 1945-46 commission and its recommended flag, tie into Pearson's drive for a unique flag. DoubleBlue (Talk) 05:06, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
I believe it has been completely covered now. :-) DoubleBlue (Talk) 00:59, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Snaky sentence[edit]

Under th "History" section, the sentece beginning "During the Second World War, there was an effort to create..." turns into a real snake, and it's a bit hard to follow, especially with the quotation at the end. Since I'm not quite sure what it means, I'm hesitant to chop it up. Thoughts? Risker (talk) 00:47, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I've chopped it into a few pieces. Is it any easier to comprehend? Thanks, DoubleBlue (Talk) 00:58, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, much better. Thanks. Risker (talk) 01:05, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Page hacked?[edit]

When I linked a moment ago to the article page I was sent to a hacked page. Any ideas as to what happened? Ozdaren (talk) 08:52, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Me too, but there doesn't seem to be any reference to it in the page history. -- MightyWarrior (talk) 08:53, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Yeah I noticed that, interesting all the same. I wonder how they did it? Ozdaren (talk) 08:55, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Fixed, I think. --Bongwarrior (talk) 08:57, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

A Courteous Note[edit]

Just letting you Wikipedias know that someone is spamming the link to edit this page on a rather high traffic site. I'm sure it'll get resolved soon (once the mods on said site wake up), but just keeping you in the loop. This isn't a love for wikipedia, just more of a hatred at one of my e-haunts getting spammed. Regardless, now you know. --24.68.144.179 (talk) 10:44, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Wind Tunnel does not equal Visual Appeal[edit]

What's up with "The points of the maple leaf were determined by taking various designs and putting them in a wind tunnel to see what was most visually appealing.[10]" I don't have the book, so I can't look it up, but this doesn't make much sense to me. You can use a wind tunnel to determine how streamlined something is, but you can't use it determine how nice something looks. Was a cut-out of the leaf put in a wind tunnel? Was the whole flag put into a wind tunnel to see which flag looked best when ruffled by wind? This sentence should be improved. - Enuja (talk) 17:25, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

They put whole flags with different amounts of points on the maple leaf into a wind tunnel in order to see what the flag would look like from a distance in a strong wind. They found out that more points on the leaf looked very blurry in windy conditions so they settled on the 11 point leaf. If you look at the CBC archives on the flag debate you will see that the original flag approved by Parliament did have more points on the leaf than the final flag design. Seen0288 (talk) 01:40, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I edited the article to reflect this information. I don't think I was able to come up with the best phrasing ever, but I think some detail needs to stay, if the bit about the wind tunnel is going to stay. - Enuja (talk) 16:05, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
I believe the book is online. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 19:21, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Featured Articles[edit]

I just want to congratulate you guys on making this article into a featured article status! $$Annoyomous24$$ (talk) 00:48, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to remove date-autoformatting[edit]

Dear fellow contributors

MOSNUM no longer encourages date autoformatting, having evolved over the past year or so from the mandatory to the optional after much discussion there and elsewhere of the disadvantages of the system. Related to this, MOSNUM prescribes rules for the raw formatting, irrespective of whether a date is autoformatted or not). MOSLINK and CONTEXT are consistent with this.

There are at least six disadvantages in using date-autoformatting, which I've capped here:

Removal has generally been met with positive responses by editors. Does anyone object if I remove it from the main text in a few days’ time on a trial basis? The original input formatting would be seen by all WPians, not just the huge number of visitors; it would be plain, unobtrusive text, which would give greater prominence to the high-value links. Tony (talk) 11:44, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

UK Flag[edit]

"Its adoption in 1965 marked the first time a national flag had been officially adopted to replace the Union Flag"
Wasn't it the Flag of South Africa that replace the Union Flag in 1928? Damzow (talk) 07:45, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Probably this was worded in the sense for Canada only, since there was adoptions before and after the Canadian flag was done. This needs to be reworded, but not sure how. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 08:32, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

"For the nation's centennial celebrations in 1967,...[edit]

"... the Canadian government used the Canadian coat of arms (whose shield was used on the red ensign) on a red flag."

Can this be correct? Surely not. I was in primary school in 1967, where the centennial celebrations were urgently promoted, and never once saw the coat of arms on a red flag. The centennial flag had a stylised maple leaf consisting of eleven equilateral triangles representing the ten provinces and the territories. Its aesthetic was very 'sixties and while it was eminently suitable for the time and occasion, it is a good thing that the same committee that came up with it wasn't responsible for the national flag, which is hasn't dated in the slightest. And is elegant and spare, in contrast to the coat of arms, which is certainly very pretty, but just keeps getting more and more elaborate.Masalai (talk) 04:56, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Here's the flag in question. I've never seen a real life example though. By the way, the other centennial flag you speak of is rather poorly re-drawn here and I'm certain was more common because, though I was only one year old then, I've seen it. DoubleBlue (talk) 05:29, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Honestly, I never seen an actual photo of the flag, and I doubt that actual flag existed in real life. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 06:21, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
I've seen it in real life flying at my private school in Ontario, so yes it exists, but no it isn't really that important. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.232.229.2 (talk) 22:23, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Maple leaf[edit]

the leaf is a sugar maple Acer saccharum leaf, is this not important? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.136.207.120 (talk) 18:35, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

The article notes that the flag bears a maple leaf symbol. The leaf is a stylized symbol, not meant to be representative of any one type of maple. Our article on the maple leaf (as a symbol of Canada) notes that "the one chosen is a generic maple leaf representing the ten species of maple tree native to Canada." - EronTalk 18:39, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually to me the flag looks like 2 men shouting at each other! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.107.50.158 (talk) 01:32, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes! I read in a flag book that some Canadians refer to the flag as Jack and Jacques because it looks like two men shouting at each other. I did find this source from an article on suite101 (unable to provide link as site has apparently been blacklisted as spam) "Since the adoption of the flag, some observers have pointed out that if the colours of the flag are inverted, the flag’s design reveals two faces in profile, arguing. These figures have been nicknamed Jack and Jacques, in allusion to Canada’s cultural and linguistic duality." Maybe this is worth a mention in the article with an adequate source? 96.248.139.183 (talk) 07:46, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
http://books.google.com/books?id=0bNwoG1MvToC&q=%22Jack+and+Jacques%22+flag&dq=%22Jack+and+Jacques%22+flag&hl=en&ei=yRQTTZjWIcOqlAfE9o3YCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA might be the book in question. However, page 103 of "I Stand For Canada" mentioned that while the 13 point leaf was stylized, it still resembled mostly to the sugar maple. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 09:27, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Holy Trinity[edit]

According to one particular interpretation, the Maple leaf could be depicting the Holy Trinity, i.e. God as is usually understood in Christianity. See for instance the Andrei Rublev painting, which in depicted in the same shape as the maple leaf. There are various traditional symbols such as the fleurs-de-lis, the shamrock and the Christmas tree that have the same basic shape and that have historically been used to represent the Holy Trinity in art and symbol. ADM (talk) 09:15, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence that when Members of Parliament chose the maple leaf flag they did so because of this alleged relationship? Or did they chose the maple leaf because it is common throughout many parts of Canada and has always been associated with Canada? Ground Zero | t 11:29, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure it's common in all parts of Canada. When I meet people from the West, the North or the Far East, they tell me that maple trees are not all that common in their respective provinces or territories. I think the symbol originates from 19th century Quebec, when it was used during the Saint-Jean-Baptiste parades, and became associated by the quasi-religious regalia of those ceremonies. ADM (talk) 11:45, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
The maple tree was one of the most predominate and useful trees of central Canada and especially Quebec and its leaf was chosen as a symbol to represent Canada by the Saint-Jean Baptiste society in its infancy and was waved by the populace during the visit of Edward VII in 1860. Its use as a national symbol spread and was used on flags, money, posters, arms; just as today almost anything that needed identifying as being Canadian you just added the maple leaf. I don't find any credible evidence that the holy trinity had anything to do with the initial choice of the leaf as a national symbol and it certainly had nothing to do with its choice as the primary element of the flag. DoubleBlue (talk) 18:13, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
The Christmas tree does not have the same "basic shape" as the maple leaf. Furthermore, anything with three branches or points can be used to represent any other thing with three branches or points in an artistic or symbolic representation, so you could say that the Star Wars Trilogy could represent the Holy Trinity. And the painting you cite has nothing to do with the Trinity maple leaves. Utter nonsense. --Makaristos (talk) 18:29, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
The maple leaf was previously the Quebec national symbol, until it was replaced by the fleurs-de-lis. It happens that both symbols have the exact same shape and the same religious meaning, if you look up the history of the royal emblem of France, which clearly depicts the Trinity. See also the shamrock, Ireland's national symbol. Also, the generic term trinity is not the same thing as the artistic representation of the Trinity, this is a heresy called nominalism. ADM (talk) 19:15, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
The Maple Leaf as used on the flag of Canada does not stand for the Trinity. --Makaristos (talk) 02:28, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Add new section: Criticisms[edit]

I think a section should be added noting that many people are critical of the political reasons behind the adoption of the 1965 flag, given the political climate of the era, and the way in Canada's traditional love for its historic ties to the Commonwealth were dealt a significant blow. The leader of Her Majesty's Official Opposition Michael Ignatieff even said the flag "looks like a beer label." There also exists a society to restore the Canadian Red Ensign. See: canadianredensign.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.253.197.129 (talk) 20:06, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Flag of Canada song by Freddy Grant (1965)[edit]

--Wendystation (talk) 05:35, 27 January 2011 (UTC)Young students learned to sing Freddy Grant's "Flag of Canada" (1965) at Cedar Hill School in Victoria BC back in 1965. Here's one of those students singing the song, 46 years later. Flag of Canada (sung by Wendy Station)

Missing template[edit]

{{Flags of North America}} is missing. --Pavel Q (talk) 17:50, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

We got it, it is inside the Navigational box. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 18:26, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Flag not created by an "act of Parliament"[edit]

Technically, the flag was not created by an "act", and the Senate and the House of Commons did not vote on a "bill" in December 1964. Because of the precedent set by the Acts of Union in 1707 and 1801, which reserved to the sovereign the design of national coat of arms and flag, Parliament's powers still are not considered to include changing arms or flag. So the two houses of Parliament did not vote on a "bill" but on "resolutions", which asked the Queen to proclaim this design as the national flag. See the text of the proclamation, which says the proclamation is made on the advice of the Privy Council. It does mention the resolutions of the houses, but they were not legally binding. Politically binding, yes, but not legally. Indefatigable (talk) 16:14, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Watercolors are _gouache_ or _guache_, not _gauche_. Please someone fix this. It would be _gauche_ not to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.59.251.153 (talk) 03:43, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 198.103.167.20, 13 May 2011[edit]

Please change the wait times listed for receiving a Peace Tower flag from 27 to 32 years, and from 19 to 20 years for the East/West Block flags. These dates have officially been changed by PWGSC, and are currently listed on the Parliament Hill website. http://www.parliamenthill.gc.ca/drp-flg-eng.html

198.103.167.20 (talk) 19:09, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Done (diff), and thanks for helping to keep Wikipedia reliable.  Hazard-SJ  ±  04:13, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Related to the above, the webpage that is cited as a source for these numbers has changed. The new URL is http://www.collineduparlement-parliamenthill.gc.ca/batir-building/centre/tour-tower/drp-flg-eng.html

I've set answered=no for the link update only - the numbers are still valid. 76.10.151.125 (talk) 01:39, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

 Done--Jac16888 Talk 14:31, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

flag of canada[edit]

why the canada choose the leaves for the designed of the canadiens flag? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.129.137.98 (talk) 17:11, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

FA?[edit]

After a quick read through the article, I think that this article isn't a FA. Here's some points:

  • The spelling is inconsistant mix of American and Canadian
  • Bare URLs
  • Link rot

~~Ebe123~~ → report on my contribs. 22:21, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Would you please give some examples of words that are not spelled the Canadian way. I took a quick scan through and could not find any. Indefatigable (talk) 16:13, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Fixed already. ~~Ebe123~~ → report on my contribs. 15:40, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
Plus there is more information that has been found in the past few years, such as the creation of technical standards by the GCSB. As for the American spelling, that is my fault but I have no sure fire way on making sure everything is in Canadian English. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:32, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
The automated peer reviewer does check, but is not complete. ~~Ebe123~~ → report on my contribs. 23:16, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
More like if there is a spellchecker I can use on Firefox or something. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:52, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit request from 76.10.151.125, 16 January 2012[edit]

Please correct name of the flag given in the infobox. The official name is the National Flag of Canada. Source: http://www.pch.gc.ca/pgm/ceem-cced/symbl/df7-eng.cfm

76.10.151.125 (talk) 01:44, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

This is an issue with the {{Infobox flag}}, which does not allow for words entered before the word "flag", only between "flag of" and the name of the entity. Thus, it can't be changed without using an entirely different infobox. Skier Dude (talk) 03:58, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
Fixed infobox and changed. ~~Ebe123~~ → report on my contribs. 21:55, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 27 January 2012 -- flying it upside-down[edit]

Can someone add a section about flying the flag upside-down, whether it represents a distress signal, and particularly the time that a U.S. Army unit inadvertently carried it upside-down during the opening ceremonies of a World Series game in Montreal?

Hgrosser (talk) 02:39, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Not done, this template is for making specific requests for changes which protection prevents you from making yourself--Jac16888 Talk 02:58, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 1 February 2012[edit]

Freddy Grant's "Flag of Canada" song was written in (1965) The Canadian Encyclopedia

The song was taught at Cedar Hill School in Victoria, BC. Visit Flag of Canada to hear the song being sung recently by one of the students.

Wendystation (talk) 17:46, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Not done: Please restate your request in a 'please change X to Y' format. It isn't clear where in this article you could add information about that song. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 06:17, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Canadian Unity Flag[edit]

This section seems like a plug for a really minor movement. Should it be removed? Knoper (talk) 04:10, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, it has been going on for years, received attention from the press and also was featured in both books by Archbold. I would make it a minor note in the article, but I would not remove it outright. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 04:24, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Relatively minor it is, I've only seen it in actual use once, and that was during Canada day on Parliament Hill (someone was waving it about), although that doesn't diminish the fact that it is used. trackratte (talk) 20:48, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

RGB is missing![edit]

hello,

the RGB colours are missing! How is this featured without mentioning the exact type of colours. Regards.--Kürbis () 10:32, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Because the official government source (Department of Canadian Heritage) doesn't list an RGB color in their specifications of colors. However, the Federal Identity Program does list the RGB colors at http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/fip-pcim/spec/T145-eng.asp. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 16:27, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Erroneous date[edit]

In the "History" section, I believe the following sentence should be changed and the reference to the Heritage Canada document removed: "The design was approved unanimously by the committee on October 29, 1964, and later passed by a majority vote in the House of Commons on December 15, 1964. The Senate added its approval two days later."

I was doing a research on the topic and I found in the House of Commons Journals that the House adopted the motion on December 14, not December 15 (House of Commons Journals, vol. CXI, no. 210, p. 1000-1003). I'm also in contact with Heritage Canada for clarifications and hopefully getting that part of their website corrected.--RXcanadensis (talk) 21:48, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Nevermind people, further research demonstrated that although the vote was still on the December 14 sitting, it happened after midnight, thus making it December 15.--RXcanadensis (talk) 14:39, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Discussion of "Father of Canadian Flag" and reference to C.P. Champion's book[edit]

The paragraph deleted by Miesianiacal in the "Legacy" section of the Flag of Canada article is a discussion of conflicting interpretations, not editorializing. As a reliable published source on the topic, written by a respected scholar and published by a leading university press, C.P. Champion's The Strange Demise of British Canada is indeed a relevant source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fitzdavid (talkcontribs) 22:19, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

It was full of editorialising and sourced to an editorial. It's been trimmed accordingly.
The Strange Demise of British Canada isn't a source used for many parts of this article, so, it was put in the wrong place. It's been moved to a more proper location, but needs a page number. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 23:11, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
The section seems to me to be adding a controversy that is not really there.-- Moxy (talk) 18:27, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
I agree. I think the preceding sections do a good job in outlining the facts (ie the roles that Matheson, Stanley, and Pearson played), without getting into editorialising over who deserves to be the one and only true 'father of the flag'. trackratte (talk) 20:46, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
History is much more than simply "the facts". On a much more sophisticated level, it is the interpretation of the facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fitzdavid (talkcontribs) 19:28, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
Actually, there is a current "controversy" regarding this issue. Brockville, Ontario, is campaigning to have that community officially recognized as the "Birthplace of the Canadian Flag" and is claiming Matheson as the "Father of the Canadian Flag". Both assertions run counter to the historical facts and documentation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fitzdavid (talkcontribs) 19:41, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
I live in Brockcille - for years our welcome board has said "Birthplace of the Canadian Flag". There is a motion in the House of Commons that would recognizes Brockville as the "birthplace of the Canadian flag". Not to bring up a debate on if Matheson or Stanley was more involved. The term "Father of the Canadian Flag" was officially bestowed on Stanley in 1995 by Prime Minister Jean Chrétien and is not what Brockville is trying to have done for Matheson. That said it is the norm to refer to Matheson as one of the father(s) of the Canadian flag.-- Moxy (talk) 18:36, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
What do you mean by "no consensus for this - get consensus first"? This section describes an ongoing situation of controversy about commemoration of the flag. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fitzdavid (talkcontribs) 16:08, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
This section is based on objective, verifiable facts. Although you live in Brockville, you don't seem to be aware of the stated intentions of the local committee. See also committee chair Robert Harper's statements in the press and on radio. The committee's goals have been opposed by letters to the Brockville newspaper on 15 May 2013 and on 17 May 2013. The fact that there is a motion in the House of Commons and a private member's bill in the Ontario Legislature does not change the historical facts. Can you please elaborate on why you object to acknowleding this ongoing controversy? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fitzdavid (talkcontribs) 16:40, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I don't see why the info regarding the 'father of the Canadian flag' bit can't be worked in somewhere, so long as it's kept to a reasonable length and is in the right location. The Brockville stuff seems trivial and the designation of this as a "controversy" is pure POV. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 16:44, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Flag of Labrador[edit]

A fact tag has been added to the claim that the Flag of Labrador is considered a national flag. There may be a push by some to recognize and use this unofficial flag, see this for example (and I make no claims about the reliability of this source) but are there any reliable sources that show that Labrador can be considered a distinct nation? It's certainly not a distinct nation because of linguistics or cultural heritage, as are the other distinct nations listed in the article. So, what is the basis of the claim? I don't think geographic separation is enough, or Canada would have more distinct nations that the US has states. Meters (talk) 21:06, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Close thread. No sources added and no comments here. Statement removed from article by tagger (and I agree with that). Meters (talk) 20:18, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Article on flag suggestions from the 60s[edit]

[1] I was going to stick it in the external links section, but maybe we could incorporate it more meaningfully? Matt Deres (talk) 13:48, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Isn't it's content already covered in the article where it mentions the public submissions? --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 13:53, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Gallery of similar flags[edit]

An IP and a named user have been attempting to add a gallery of "similar " flags [2]. Apart from the issue of similarity being nothing but editors' opinions (red with a white centre? white with a red centre? only vertical stripes? horizontal stripes too? only if it has an emblem in the centre? etc.) I don't see it as adding anything particularly useful to the article. Mintytingy's edit summary claims that this section has been in this article for years and that per WP:BRD we need consensus to remove it, but I saw no such section when I looked. I took a random sample of the article over the last 5 years and none of the versions I looked at had a section on "similar flags." If I missed it please point it out to me. The section has been removed by two different editors now, and it appears that without consensus to add it it should stay out. Meters (talk) 23:34, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Never mind. Unless some else wants to support this I guess this is moot, as Mintytingy was just blocked as a sock. Meters (talk) 23:37, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

I agree, they shouldn't be added. It is all POV. That's why I tried to remove them on Flag of the United States but a user claims that "they've been there for years"... Most flag articles don't have them. It should stay consistent. They really shouldn't be included as again it is all just POV. Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 00:47, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Flag of Canada or Canadian Flag[edit]

Does anyone have any insight into why this article is titled "Flag of Canada"? It seems to me that the "Canadian Flag" is the overwhelming common usage, both in everyday discussion, as well as in media reports. trackratte (talk) 19:07, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

We had a talk of this nature long ago ...not sure where...but Wikipedia:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology had some convention where we use.... "flags of countries" All recognized territory flags vs 'flag of country" = The National Flag...that said "Canadian Flag" seem right me. -- Moxy (talk) 19:16, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
Dang, that's my recommendation. Change the article title to Canadian Flag'. I thought about Flags of Canada? but that could arguable include all the provincial & territorial flags, aswell. GoodDay (talk) 19:26, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
This may be tricky. Most sovereign state flag articles are titled as Flag of X. GoodDay (talk) 19:29, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
Lets ask User:SimonP (Simon Pulsifer) ..longest Canadian editor here...see if he knows anything about the old talk....hes the one that made the original redirect. -- Moxy (talk) 20:05, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
Unfortunately I have no memories of of why, likely it was just the way other countries have it. - SimonP (talk) 21:17, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
Alright then. It seems to me that the article titles policy would take precedence over a precedent essay. Especially as we all know "because others do it that way" is not necessarily a reason, as other stuff exists. Does anyone else see a reason not to use the common name? Or perhaps not think that the Canadian Flag is not the common name? trackratte (talk) 21:48, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
I agree that the common name that we usually use to address the flag is "Canadian flag", however looking at Gallery of sovereign state flags, all the countries use how the article is titled currently, that is "Flag of X Country". Since that is the case, Canada shouldn't stray from how it's conventionally done with respect to the other "Flag of X Country" titles. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 03:33, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
Maybe all other countries' common name for their flag is "Flag of X Country". Although the "Flag of the United States" is undoubtedly commonly referred to as the "American flag". Second, what other pages do is not a reason to ignore WP:COMMONNAME for article names. And policies outweigh essays. Lastly, the Canadian Flag within the Gallery of sovereign state flags can still say "Flag of Canada" to suit the article style, and a reader clicking the link would simply be redirected. trackratte (talk) 22:59, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

Infobox[edit]

Vas, what other pages do is not a reason to blindly follow regardless of what makes sense.

For example, the Canadian Naval Ensign uses the same flag template, but says "Canadian Naval Ensign" instead of "Canada", even though it is the "national flag when used at sea". Another is the Royal Standard of Canada, which is a state flag and represents Canada (in the same way as the Canadian Coat of Arms, as it is a banner of the Royal Arms of Canada).

Subsequently, there are two Canadian national flags and one Canadian state flag that are in current use to symbolise Canada. Nevermind the historic national flags (including the ensigns) which were in use. To have all of them simply say "Canada" is problematic and confusing. To say that this Canadian Flag is the only one to represent Canada is false. trackratte (talk) 22:54, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

Can you show evidence that the current title has been "problematic and confusing" to readers? Otherwise, this seems to be a case of "I don't like it". The precedent for using "Flag of X country" is well established, and I don't see a case for changing it on one article because of one user's concern for hypothetical confusion. - BilCat (talk) 23:14, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
Hi Bil, thanks for jumping in. To answer your first question: not any more than you can poll every single Wiki reader that's read all those pages. The point is there's more than one "Canada" flag. This is a point about accuracy, which I'm obviously not a fan of inaccurate labelling within an encyclopedia, and neither are you I'm sure. Your accusation of WP:JDL is completely off-side, and is largely confined to emotional arguments not based on logic and without any substantiation beyond personal preference. My point is not based in emotion, but in the fact that there is more than one "Canada" flag, so the accurate label would be its actual name, the National Flag of Canada. The "other" national flag, the ensign, uses its proper name in the Flag infobox as well, instead of just "Canada". The state flag doesn't have a flag infobox at all, but if it did it should use its proper name as well. Applying the same logic to all three would have all three with the infobox name of simply "Canada". Which is fine I suppose, if that's what most editors thinks makes the best sense. trackratte (talk) 23:27, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
Actually, the evidence I had in mind would have been a history of this being a problem here on the talk page and/or in the article's edit history. The absence of that is telling. as usually there's a record of confusion somewhere in the article or talk page. As to JDL, it comes across that way, especially as this is the only article you apparently want to change. "Canadian flag" vs. "Flag of Canada" has the appearance of semantics. Yes, accuracy is important, but not to the point of being silly, which is how this comes across to me. Granted, I'm not Canadian, so it's not a personal issue to me. - BilCat (talk) 23:45, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
I think you're talking about two separate issues at once. If you wish to simply accuse me of things instead of any productive reasons beyond it having "the appearance of semantics" (which isn't a reason) that's fine too. trackratte (talk) 00:49, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
To be honest, I'm not opposed either way... I too think National Flag of Canada makes more sense, but if it's not what is done on the other pages that are about the same subject matter as the other countries, it shouldn't stray. It all should be uniform. I'm not here to go to the highest of places to ask for a huge discussion about a small thing. I am here to make things consistent between pages. One or the other isn't necessarily right or wrong, it's always a matter of personal preference. But if the convention is just to use the country name, and that's how it's been for a long while, then that's how it should be and that's how its should stay unless proven otherwise by a wide discussion of some sort. Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 23:46, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
It's not a big issue by any means, merely something I noticed today, and didn't seem to jive. However, I still do not see any policy stating that we must stick to what other pages do, particularly as Canada in this case, is not the same as every other country. Or maybe it is I don't know. Regardless, it seems to me to have simply "Canada" at odds in the sense that there are actually multiple flags, so to label it as "Canada" is not entirely accurate. Obviously, if everyone thinks it should be called "Canada" then fine I suppose, although it's always better to have reasons on why not to do things beyond 'that's what other pages do', or 'it seems like semantics to me', etc. I'm sure you understand. trackratte (talk) 00:49, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
It certainly is confusing having just "Canada" at the top of the infobox. It also presents some inaccurate implications, such as "Canada" being the name of the flag or the flag and the state being one and the same. -- MIESIANIACAL 00:57, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
Miesianiacal, pretty sure it's my second revert, other than my self revert (the one on the IP was a different matter), but okay. Wikipedia is about consistency. If every single other "Flag of x country" article has their infobox name as just the country name then so be it. If you would rather have it as national flag of x, then it should be uniform across all articles. Why should Canada be an outlier? I am not saying one is right over the other, but if that's how it's been, again, we shouldn't stray. Does that mean it they should all be changed? Maybe. But as it is without a wide discussion, it should be like the rest. Consistency. Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 01:06, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

PLEASE folks. Leave the infobox as it was & then work it out 'here'. I doubt any of you wish to end up blocked over this issue. GoodDay (talk) 01:14, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Actually, Wikipedia isn't really about consistency. It's something to aim for, but it isn't necessary. Hence, WP:OTHERSTUFF and WP:IAR exist. If just the country name works elsewhere, great (though, I'd argue against doing so in those articles, as well, if asked). But, I think trackratte and myself have given some pretty valid reasons why "Canada" isn't fitting for the infobox on this article. -- MIESIANIACAL 01:29, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
The documentation for the infobox at Template:Infobox flag states that the name field is for the name of the "entity". In this case, that's Canada, so "Canada" should go in the name field. Ignoring infobox documentation will lead to confusion by editors who follow the documentation. Perhaps the field should be relabled, or the documentation changed, but that should be discussed on the infobox talk page. - BilCat (talk) 01:39, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
The problem is there is more than one flag that represents this "entity". So we are faced with three or more different flags all representing the generic "entity" of Canada, but each in a different role. If the FIAV codes were reinstated it may help to clear things up a bit, as the state flag, national flag, and national flag (ensign) would be differentiated by role within the infobox. For example, it could say Canada in the head, and then "national flag", "state flag", etc. Currently the "use" section is doesn't seem accurate, or a flag can be used in a variety of way. Second, the name parametre just says the Maple Leaf, which isn't the name of the flag. Third, none of this really addresses the core oddity that the box is titled "Canada" instead of Canadian Flag, because nowhere does the template say "this is a template about flags" or something similar. trackratte (talk) 04:05, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia is about consistency just as much as it is about clarity and accuracy and is very necessary. Without consistency, how would things be clear? It all stems from one another. As I said before, I am not against either of the names and have said I would rather National flag of x country, however I would rather for consistency more, and if that means just having the country name, then that's how it is. Again, should they all be changed? I think they should, because I do agree it can be confusing for just the country name, however if things are not consistent between similar pages, things can go wrong, and actually be less clear. This is why consistency is important. I would go around to the other articles and change them to National flag of x, but I'd for sure get some users reverting that. There needs to be a bigger discussion about this because it is important to have the title of the infobox uniform between pages. Something like that is usually the same throughout similar articles. There is a difference between that otherstuff article and consistency between pages; a fine line. I am all for for either, as long as there should be consistency to achieve clarity. Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 01:42, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Trackratte, I added "Canadian flag" under names because I agree with you about that, and think we can all agree that it is used undoubtedly like the American flag. Also, it does say in the infobox template in the "uses" part that it is a national flag. Also, this is not just used at the national level, it is also used at provincial level, for example Flag of Ontario, city level, Flag of Toronto, state level Flag of California, etc etc. The name in the infobox seems to be consistently like this, and until otherwise proven a change through a wide discussion it should stay. Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 04:19, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
I also find it odd how the template says "nickname" but what is displayed is "name", the former being unofficial and the later seeming official. I think this entire discussion could be avoided if the template was a little clearer, chief of which saying the word "flag" as part of the template, to make it clear it's not talking about the "entity" itself, which is what it is currently doing. Ie: This article is not about Canada, so why does the template just say Canada? May seem nitty to some, but there are (or were) at least three incongruities with the infobox on this page which I only noticed in passing today. trackratte (talk) 04:26, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
I also find it odd how the template says nickname... at least to the readers it just displays "name" in the infobox. Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 04:29, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Dont care about the fight..nor do I have a position ...but best not to link to template documentation in a hidden note.. not policies or a guideline..nor does it even have a recommendation on this point... say "Name of entity" this will lead most to believe its the name of the flag,,,not country it represents .....so best not to make others think this documentation is anything more then an essay that is conflicting WP:CONLIMITED. Thank you -- Moxy (talk) 04:44, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
At least part of the problem does seem to lie in the template itself. It's obvious to me the "Name" field would hold the name of the flag, not the nation the flag is meant to represent. The template documentation then says the "Name" field should show the "name of entity", which is vague and therefore doesn't contradict the conclusion the "Name" field should have in it the name of the flag. Then the "Nickname" field shows in the infobox in article space as "Name"...
I think the template itself needs to be reconsidered. -- MIESIANIACAL 17:17, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
I completely agree. Maybe to bring the discussion over there? trackratte (talk) 17:28, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

A discussion has been opened at Template talk:Infobox flag#Propose clarification of "entity", -- MIESIANIACAL 23:46, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

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"Union Flag"???[edit]

Re the sentence, "In 1964, Prime Minister Lester B. Pearson formed a committee to resolve the ongoing issue of the lack of an official Canadian flag, sparking a serious debate about a flag change to replace the Union Flag," few Canadians would know what the phrase "Union Flag" means. It is called the "Union Jack" in Canada, never the "Union Flag". Before the maple leaf flag was invented, most Canadians considered the Union Jack to be the flag of both the UK and the British Commonwealth, while the Canadian Ensign (a red flag with a small Union Jack in the upper left corner, and a crest in the middle) was considered the Canadian flag. Canadian ships flew the Canadian Ensign, not the Union Jack. In public places, such as schools, both flags (the Union Jack and the Canadian Ensign) were displayed together.77Mike77 (talk) 22:57, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Union Flag and Union Jack are interchangeable terms and mean the same thing. There are those who argue that it is only a "Jack" when flown from a ship, but in widespread usage it is often referred to as a Jack on land or sea. Pearson used the term "Union Flag" when he made his call for a national flag that initiated Great Canadian Flag Debate. Since then in Canada it is officially known as the "Royal Union Flag", though "Union Jack" remains in widespread use. As for the Red Ensign, it was official only for merchant shipping and military use; and though widely used elsewhere it was never officially declared to be Canada's national flag. Mediatech492 (talk) 01:34, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Whatever "official" names are inherited from history, virtually all Canadians call it the "Union Jack", and since it is never flown from a Canadian ship, the argument you mentioned does not apply. My point is that the vast majority of Canadians are (a) not historians, and (b) not as old as Lester Pearson would be if he were still alive, and that therefore the vast majority of Canadians reading this article would deem the author to be a kook for referring to the Union Jack as the "Union Flag", or, even worse, might not even guess what flag the author is talking about.77Mike77 (talk) 22:30, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Please provide some Reliable Sources to verify your above claims and then we can discuss it further. Mediatech492 (talk) 00:23, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
It's pretty clearly counter-intuitive to word an encyclopedia article around popular ignorance. Since 1965, the "Union Jack" has been named in Canada, by law, as the Royal Union Flag. If people commonly call it the Union Jack still, then that can be mentioned (with a supporting source). But, it shouldn't be called the Union Jack in this article, at least in reference to it post-1965, because that's not what it's properly called. -- MIESIANIACAL 01:52, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom It is called the Union Jack. The "Union Flag" is an alternate name. Popular usage defines the meanings of words, and it is ignorant to refer to popular usage as "ignorance". Regardless of what name some bureaucrat invented for the official archives, popular usage dictates that the flag is called the Union Jack in Canada.77Mike77 (talk) 18:34, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Truth is not democratic. The name of something does not change just because "x" number of people think that is is or should be called something. The official name is "Royal Union Flag", and this is verified from the Canadian Government. Despite previous request, you have not provided any verifiable source to support your claims on the basis of popular usage. Please see the Wikipedia policies: WP:RS and WP:OR. Wikipedia is only concerned with verifiable facts from Reliable Sources. Mediatech492 (talk) 22:40, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
Here's your source for popular Canadian usage: the Canadian Oxford Dictionary (2nd Edition, 2004) and the Oxford Canadian Dictionary of Current English (2005) both list "Union Jack". Neither "Union Jack" entry mentions the "Royal Union Flag" or the "Royal Flag", and neither book has an entry under "Royal Union Flag" or the "Royal Flag". Clearly Canadian usage is Union Jack. Meters (talk) 23:33, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
We don't even name articles based on official names (see WP:COMMONNAME, so I see no reason that we should not use the common name in this article. We should mention the official name, bu tuse the common name. Meters (talk) 23:38, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
That doesn't prove popular Canadian usage. Nor does it disprove that in Canada the flag is called the Royal Union Flag.
It's also unhelpful to call the flag in the Canadian context the same thing as what the flag's called in the British context when they don't represent the same thing in the British and Canadian contexts. -- MIESIANIACAL 03:57, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

@Meters. It's obvious that the two other responders have claimed "ownership" of this article, and are dead-set against listening to reason, nor accepting that it needs improvement. I'm abandoning it now as yet another failed article.77Mike77 (talk) 13:52, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

WP:CABAL. -- MIESIANIACAL 17:43, 2 April 2017 (UTC)