Talk:Flag of the Valencian Community

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wikiproject addition[edit]

How could an anon user be allowed to a add wikiproject template? Isn't that a job for a registered and contributing member of that wikiproject? It's just a thought... --Maurice27 00:21, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Proportions of flag[edit]

Maurice27, rude unbeliver, by WP:Verifiability (please read it) the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is not truth but verifiability. In your case, saying that 2:3 are official is not verifiable and neither a truth, because anywhere in Valencian law it isn't saying to be 2:3. Instead, it's verifiable that 1:2 and 2:3 are used both nowadays. But it's also verifiable that these are being used in different way, the 1:2 is always hoisted at top and, specially, in very historical simbols of Valencia. Also he have sources of 1:2 used before 1982, but until now there are no source for 2:3. In th other hand the 2:3 is used in a common and general way because of mimesis to proportions of the other two flag used on official buildings, the Spanish one and the European one. So these verifiable facts implies that Valencian crowned senyera in 1:2 is traditional, more majestic, as it's always hoisted at top, because the official regulation states that the flag must never touch the ground or floor. Both are used, but 1:2 is more representative. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 09:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Benimerin (aka Joanot), you have been already proven in Valencian Community talk-page to be wrong and you keep reverting sourced and referenced edits on this article also. In addition, the reasons given by you are completely uncyclopedic. If you keep reverting you will be reported. Since you created your new account, you haven't done a single edit outside this valencian flag matter (see [1]). You may believe to be a paladin of the truth in this matter, but the worst thing is that you are backing your point with erroneous edits:

  • You are wrongly using the FIAV symbols (the senyera CAN NOT be used at the sea and there can't be 2 flags used de facto at the same time.
  • The mere saying that there is a de facto flag means that there is a de jure (or official) one... (You missed that point)
  • You are giving, as sources, drawings from medieval times which are not even in scale STATING the flag to be 1:2. Should you know that in those times, vexillological rules were not yet created.
  • This sentence from you: "So these verifiable facts implies that Valencian crowned senyera in 1:2 is traditional, more majestic, as it's always hoisted at top, because the official regulation states that the flag must never touch the ground or floor. Both are used, but 1:2 is more representative.", just gives us all a perfect explanation in how you are using POVish and uncyclopedic reasons to back your complete lack of knowledge in vexillological matters and terminology. Wikipedia should describe the world as it is, not as how any given editor would like it to be.

On my part, I have given sources like:

  • Pictures of 2:3 flags hoisted on the most notorious valencian and spanish government building:

- The Palau de la Generalitat. Here([2] and here [3])

- The Council of Alcoy. Here ([4]). Even if not deployed, picture is taken so close that is very easy to compare the length and width with the flag of Alcoy (a 2:3 flag see:[5]).

- The Spanish Senate. Here ([6]). It can be clearly seen that the valencian flag (6th from left to right) has exactly the same length and width as all the others, excepth for the Ikurriña which has 14:25 proportions (half way between 2:3 and 1:2)

  • A decree published in the BOCV by Conselleria de justicia, interior y administraciones publicas de la generalitat valenciana: "DECRETO 116/1994, de 21 de junio, del Gobierno Valenciano, por el que se regulan los símbolos, tratamientos y honores de las entidades locales de la Comunidad Valenciana. [94/4514]" see:[[7]]
I quote:
Artículo doce. Criterios heráldicos y vexilológicos
2. La bandera será preferentemente cuadrilonga de proporciones 2:3, es decir, una vez y media más de largo que de ancho, conforme el anexo III de este decreto.

Why would the Valencian government make a law asking to its municipalities to have preferabily 2:3 flags if the community flag was to be 1:2?

I would like to point out that it is possible to a territory to have an unofficial flag in addition to the official. The very same European Union has an unofficial alternative flag with a ratio of 3:7, rather than 2:3, in the Strasbourg hemicycle. (see: [8]). This doesn't mean that both european flags (2:3 and 3:7) have to become a de facto version of each other as Benimerian is trying to oblige us to believe.

I sincerely doubt that any other matter in dispute in wikipedia worldwide has more sources, references or proofs that the ones I have contributed with. ONLY flags hoisted in official buildings (legislative, executive and/or judiciary branches) in Spain do have an strict protocolary code. (see: Use of the Spanish flag and other ensigns. Ministerio de Asuntos exteriores y Cooperación)

This is the second time I have to engage in a edit war with you because of this matter. I will copy/paste this paragraph in the WP:HV so that other users with interests and knowledge about flags may control and improve this article while preventing unbased edits like yours, which fall into WP:OWN, WP:V and WP:3RR (as explained by me to an admin here: [9])

--Maurice27 11:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Dear rude unbeliever: Why would the Valencian government make a law asking to its municipalities to have preferabily 2:3 flags if the community flag was to be 1:2?. It's a question that wikipedians does not matter here. The fact is that municipal flags is preferably in 2:3, but it doesn't mean that it's uniquelly 2:3. In fact, there are municipalities with a flag designed in a different proportion than 2:3. It means that when a municipality approves a flag it can be different.
In other sense, when something is than obviously than traditional, it is not needed to make a law to define it. Valencian crowned senyera is a flag of both Valencia City and Valencian Community. When you see the public buildings property of Valencia City Council, you can see than both 1:2 and 2:3 is used (ie Tower of Serranos is 1:2, City Hall is 2:3), and also these buildings property of the Valencian Generalitat both are used (ie Lonja de la Seda is 1:2, Palau de la Generalitat 2:3 is used at floor and 1:2 is used at top). You can say that 2:3 is used, but you have no reason to say that it's the official proportions. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 12:11, 12 July 2007 (UTC) PD: Again, the legal source given from SEV, a privative entity, does not mention anything about proportions.
The three references collected by Maurice27 only uses one of both proportions, but it does not give any official status to any proportions as the organic law is silent about it. The fact verified is that 1:2 and 2:3 is used both, but any proportion is standarished as official. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 21:02, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I think when the senyera is used together with the other two flags, Spain and the EU, it's 2:3 because of reeference #3. If Valencian senyera can't be more bigger than the Spanish flag, so the height of senyera should be more little than the Spanish flag, and both should have the same width, respecting ratio 1:2. But as the Senyera neither can't be more little than "other" flags, such with the EU flag, the height should be extended at the same size of European flag, but the width is maintained. And the result it can't be 1:2 but 2:3, it means, a mimecking. But, when the Valencian senyera is hoisted alone, it's always 1:2. It's another reason why 1:2 is more representative. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 12:41, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Again, you are exposing completely unverified and/or invented arguments. Flags with different proportions can very well be hoisted aside like in the UN, NATO or EU. (see flags hoisted in the UN). You are starting to become an edit war specialised user who don't care about sources, references and opinion from other users. 3 other users apart me have expressed their opinions that, following the sources given by me, 2:3 proportions are the ones. You have already been reported for WP:3RR. I will, again, undo your edit to leave the one with sources. If reverting again, you will be reported for preventing WP:V (you are erasing sources given by me) and WP:NOR (your theory that 1:2 is more "representative"), apart that your countinuous edit warring. --Maurice27 13:54, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

It's not unverified, it's on Law 8/1984, article 10.3. Instead of me, you are actually telling things that aren't verifiable. In the law sources, here are two, see fotnotes, the Valencian Statute of Autonomy, and the Law 8/1984 about Valencian Symbols, in this document there is no mention about proportions, so you CAN'T consider a proportion as official, neither 1:2 neither 2:3. Actually you are giving missinterpretation of the sources deliberatelly. We can say that both are being used, we can say that one is more common and general and the other is more solemn and specially used when it's alone. But you CAN'T to invent that 2:3 is official (legal source?) 1:2 is "unofficial" (legal sources?). In adding, I set the 1:2 proportion at top of article because it's the shape used when it's alone, as there are enough pictures proving that.
The sources you're giving are only making reference to the legal sources, so... why to use indirect sources when we can have the first source, it means, the legal references related to the flag?. The indirect source is simply using one of both shapes of the flag, but they aren't telling that one of them is official. Please, Maurice27, stop joking us. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 11:17, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Ooops! I left my opinion at User:Maurice27 talk page instead of posting it here. Anyway, it seems that there are two usages of flags but, as i explained there, sourced materiel prevails over unsourced one. WP:V is one of our core policies and it should be resepcted. I had offered a middle ground; leaving the sourced 2:3 while adding a footnote explaining that 1:2 is also used and how/why, etc... -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 22:41, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

It's exactly the same thing I'm adding in the article, explaining when is often used 1:2 or 2:3. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 11:35, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

That the 1:2 is also used, was already done, but still I added that is commonly used ([10]). As for the how and why... it remains a mistery... --Maurice27 23:32, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Benimerin, as already said, The 1:2 flag is already mentioned and explained to be commonly used. On the other hand, your edit explaining it to be "traditional" or "when it's the only one hoisted flag, so this usage would mean more majestic usage" is pure invention on your part, as in almost one month you have been unable to prove with any source or reference. So untill you prove it, it will be deleted for WP:V.--Maurice27 13:40, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
About the consideration of traditional for 1:2 (or modern by 2:3) is because of historical reasons, but I accept not to include it until I have an external source that until 1983 there are no 2:3 senyeres, that I will find soon. But I've recovered about mimecking of Spanish and European flags because it's perfectly referenced at Article 10.3 of Law 4/1984 about Valencian Symbol that you're removing repeatedly. And about "non-governamental", it's another error: the tower of Serranos, Lonja de la Seda, tower of Quart, at top of Palau de la Generalitat, etc... all these are a public buildings, so FIAV symbol "public land use" must be also marked. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 20:31, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Maurice27, you are giving indirect sources that refers to only one legal source, the Valencian Statute of Autonomy. I'm giving two direct legal sources, not only the Statute, but also the law 4/1984 about Valencian Symbols specifically. With your reversions, you're deleting the last source, in adding to back to a version which is making several missinterpretations, because there's no official proportions, and omits the mimecking of Valencian flag to sizes used in Spanish and European flags. I've accepted by now to delete the consideration about traditional or modern of each shape used, and now all is referenced. Which is the problem now?. Stop to play reversion game. If you are bored, go to play Space [catalanist] Invaders in Atari, it's more funny and doesn't disturb anybody. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 16:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

You are erroneously using symbols which you don't know:

  • You are reverting me to add that the flag is used on sea and government buildings without even knowing what you are talking about. Not a single time you will see the Valencian flag on ANY ship (as that is forbidden by international law, but of course you didn't know it...)
  • You are reverting me to say that these flags are used "de facto" --> this is astonishing
  • You are reverting me to say that the 2:3 is used because of mimetism with the ratio of the flags of Spain and the European Union. This one is perfect, because you are stating that flags are changed in ratios just to mimetise with others... Well, then why germans do not change their flag to 2:3 when hoisted with the one of the EU like in this picture at the german parliament?
  • You are erasing each and every time the book reference that I added. Maybe that a published book explains that your edits are flase is driving you mad... Who knows...
  • You are erasing each and every time the pictures taken at the council of Alcoy and the spanish senate that I added. Is there any special reason for that?
  • And the best one, in order to keep the 1:2 flag as the principal one, you are even capable of describing the 2:3 as "Valencian flag often used in governamental buldings" as seen here. ROFL Without wanting, you are making it completely official.

But, I have sources, I have references, I'm not inventing arguments (WP:V, I have 5 other users agreeing with me, I'm not a sock puppeteer, I haven't broke 3 times in a week the 3RR... etc..etc... Sincerely, Joanot, it is up to you to continue digging your hole. Meanwhile I'm keeping record of everything --Maurice27 23:19, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

All questions have been answered already above. Read again. There's no difference between historical buildings and governamental buildings, both are in public land and, so, property of the government. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 04:53, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Dispute resolution[edit]

I was asked to watch over the article. Pretty much, is the only issue dealing with the ratio of the flag? User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 23:40, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Dear Zscout370, thank to intercede between us. The issue is mainly about the opinion of Maurice27 stated from Talk:Valencian Community that the proportion of 2:3 is the only one official, but I give two law sources wich are silent about proportions. Because of it, we had have to see pictures of usage of Valencian flags and we had seen two ratios used for Valencian flag used in public buildings, 1:2 and 2:3. The first one is used when it's alone, and the second is used when it's together with the Spanish and European flags. Maurice27 insists that that 2:3 is official because it's used often in governamental buildigns, but I'm telling that it can't be considered official because the law is silent about proportions, and because there's no difference between historical public buildings, such Lonja de la Seda, and governamental buildings, because both are in public land and, so, property of the government, so both flags are used by government.
In the other hand, he's continously deleting the two direct legal sources there exists about the symbols, in order to replace a indirect source of a particular person making observation about flags of Autonomous Communities in Spain. He's also deleting a specific legal reference about the size of Valencian flag wich is telling its dimensions can't be bigger than Spanish flag neither can't be smaller than "other entities", such European flag (see footnote #3), only because personal opinions of his own. I'm interested in this article because I was one of the main editor of the same article in Wikipedia in Catalan, the language of Valencian Community, which was considered as quality rated article. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 04:53, 17 July 2007 (UTC) PD: Sorry about my English, I'm not native and I'm not fluent.
It is ok about the English, I understand you well. Here is one thing that I notice, you both seem to mention a law that the Valencia flag, when flying, cannot be bigger or smaller than that of the Spanish or the EU flag. What they mean by that is the height of the flag, going from top to bottom, can be the same as the Spanish flag, but cannot be higher. So that means you cannot have a 5x8 Valencia flag flying next to a 4x6 Spanish flag. So when you have a Swiss flag flying next to the Spanish flag, the height of both flags need to be, lets say, 3 meters. But those are usually for government rules; the civilian population can do whatever they please. As for FOTW, we always take our results from various laws and observations. I can easily tell you from the US that our flag, while officially having a size of 10x19, I seen flags mostly in 3x5. I think I know why Maurice is saying the flags are in a 2x3 ratio; that is the same ratio as the Spanish flag and that is what the flag makers are coming out with. I know it will be too early to judge, so I will need to do some reading on my own. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 05:02, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Absolutly. What Benimerin does not understand is that to fly a smaller or bigger flag, you don't change the ratios! You just make it bigger or smaller. About me erasing references by Joanot, I beg you to read some of my edits' references in order to find out who's the one erasing. BTW, the book I used as reference and of which I included a picture as I have it at home, showing clearly a 2:3 flag, is the same book used as reference at FOTW presented by Santiago Dotor, 11 December 1998 --Maurice27 06:16, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Even my guys at FOTW are saying they have no idea about the ratio. I honestly believe that until we do, I am thinking we should just ax the infobox in the article, display both flags and just figure out which one to use on stub tags and such. The law doesn't say anything about ratios of this specific flag, so it would be hard for us to make a decision. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 06:35, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I have no problem to use 2:3 on stubs tags because it's the more smallest in width and helps to make it more useful in small word size. In the other hand, the only doubt is wich flag to use in Valencian Community. One compromise solution would be to use 2:3 featured at Valencian Community, as it's an article about an political entity and this ratio is often used its government buildings, and in Flag of Valencia to feature 1:2 flag as it's only about the flag. What do you think? --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 06:44, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
The reason why I suggested 2:3 for the stub tags and such since 2:3 is the same ratio as the Spanish flag and I have no idea why some have chosen the 1:2 ratio. Since I am not in Spain, I do not have the easy answer. But I am thinking as long as we put both of the flags on here and just say "The ratio for the flag is not mentioned in law, variants of the flag existed in the 1:2 and 2:3 ratio." and then cite FOTW and others you can think of. I would also suggest a rename of the images too, since that is a problem I also notice. I plan on making a 1:2 ratio version of the flag in SVG and I will rename the 2:3 version later. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 06:54, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
There is a decree by the valencian community asking for its municipalities to use preferably 2:3 ratios. As Banderas (which is also contributing to FOTW) said, "attending to that legislation for municipality flags, I would not understanf the regional one to be different". I tried everywhere to find a translation of this decree in english. Nevertheless, I will post in Bandera's talk page this point just to see if he has been able to find it. This decree is the closest thing the valencian community has done to describe the ratio of its flag. I will also re-add the references and sources (mainly flag on government buildings and the book by Calvo & Grávalos) that Benimerin has erased by his edits. --Maurice27 09:37, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
This is a personal interpretation of your that doesn't matter here according to WP:NOR. The only fact is that the specifically decree about the Valencian flag is silent about proportions. You can ask yourself why, but you won't find the answer in Wikipedia Community. I don't understand why you ignore continously the decree related to Valencian flag, and decree related to symbols of municipalities have no relation to the subject. I have the answer out of here, based on historical reasons, but I'm still finding a source that proves why 1:2 is used. But, by now, I've deleted the consideration of traditional or modern of each variant because you accused me that these are personal interpretations of mine, but you are going on your own another ones in all things you simply dislike. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 09:46, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

No, not my "personal interpretation"... You know very well that 4 other users, apart me, have agreed to that point on my talk-page. And you know it very well as you have answered to them in the very same talk page. You are the only one to say that this decree is worthless, the only one.

About the "decree related to valencian flag", as you name it, is none other than the Statute of Autonomy. If you are trying to say that I am ignoring it, may I remind you that I already used it as a reference 9 minutes after I created the article? This is the third time you accuse me of falsities, and the third time I prove you to be wrong, and counting... At least you admitted you were using "personal interpretation in the consideration of traditional or modern of each variant"... That's a start, you're on the good way.

Are you done preventing good faith users to improve the article? or you will keep accusing of falsities? --Maurice27 10:12, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but all users you have asked answered you that there are no official proportions altough 2:3 is often used. Simply that. And, please, read again "decree related to valencian flag"[11] and the Statute of Autonomy[12], and compare both contents. The first is published in December 13th of 1984, and the second is publised in July 15th of 1982, in the DOGV (Valencian Government Butlletin). You are deffinitely a blind person, as I said at Talk:Valencian Community already. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 10:20, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
There are what the users answered you:
  • User:Ignaciogavira: "Aunque efectivamente no existe ninguna disposición legal que fije las proporciones de esta bandera, es cierto que las medidas habituales son las estándar 2:3 en todas las banderas autonómicas ..." (translation: Altough in fact there doesn't exist any legal disposition fixing the proportions of this flag, it's true that the often used proportions is 2:3 in autonomous flags...") (see).
  • User:Banderas: "Efectivamente, no hay una definición legislativa específica sobre las proporciones de la bandera de la Comunidad de Valencia..." (translation: In fact, there aren't specific legal definition about the propotions of the flag of Community of Valencia..." (see).
  • User:FayssalF: "Lo qué entiendo es que hay 2 formatos. Ningun formato es oficial. Esto significa que ambos son aceptables." (translation: I understand that there are two formats. Any format is official. This means that both are acceptable) (see).
  • User:Valentinian: "FOTW describes the proportions as unspecified but that 2:3 would be the intention of the relevant law. [...] If (as it appears) 1:2 is a more traditional form in common use, my personal take would be to write something along the lines of "2:3 (law of 19xx), 1:2 (traditional, also commonly used)" in the infobox and add a footnote something like this: "Law no. XYZ issued by XYZ of 19xx specifies the proportions as ... . Proportions of 1:2 have been used since ... and remain in common usage" (see).
  • User:Zscout370: Read above.
Is it so clear now?. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 10:42, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
What I (and others) say about this debate is that the common standard proportions in spanish flags are 2:3. That is to say that when the law don't specifies another proportion the standard must be applied. It is very frequent in spanish dispositions about flags not specify proportions, but it is commonly accepted that 2:3 applies. --Ignacio 10:59, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
But, in spite of it, Ignacio, there are a lot of 1:2 used for Valencian senyera. You can see it at Lonja de la Seda, at Torres de los Serranos, at Torres de Quart, at Palau de la Generalitat, and a large etc. You can also see historical pics using a very large Valencian senyera (pic in Medieval Art Collection of The Hispanic Society of America where "Centenar de la Ploma" is carrying a very large senyera[13], pic of portulans[14], pic in churches, etc.), and I think that there are historical reasons to using a 1:2 when it's flown alone. Also I think that 2:3 is only used in the cases defined by Article 10.3 of Law 8/1984 of Valencian Government. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 11:03, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Any of these is an official (government) building like the Palau de la Generalitat, Council of Alcoy, Spanis Senate, which all do hoist 2:3 flags, and which you are taking care of erasing from the references section as fast as possible...

BTW, this is what the users answered me. Parts which you didn't add before (funny on your part):

  • User:Ignaciogavira:las medidas habituales son las estándar 2:3 en todas las banderas autonómicas y en general en las españolas. Eso quiere decir que, salvo que se especifique otra cosa, como ocurre con la de Castilla-La Mancha (y aún así se utiliza la 2:3) o la del País Vasco, las proporciones de la bandera deben ser esas. [...]es posible que en algún sitio puedan verse estas banderas (1:2), pero nunca con carácter oficial

(translation: the standart measures are 2:3[...]This means that, if not stated the contrary[...] those are the proportions to be used.)

  • User:Banderas: Pero en el decreto 116/1994 de 21 de junio, del gobierno valenciano, por el que se regulan los símbolos, tratamientos y honores de las entidades locales de la Comunidad Valenciana, encontramos en el artículo doce: Criterios heráldicos y vexilológicos, punto bandera será preferentemente cuadrilonga de proporciones 2:3, es decir, una vez y media más de largo que de ancho, conforme el anexo III de este decreto.En el Anexo III se ilustra una bandera rectangular de proporciones 2:3. Ateniéndonos a esta legislación para las banderas municipales, dificilmente se entendería que la autonómica fuese diferente...

(Translation: decree 116/1994[...] 2:3 proportions[...] Following this legislation for municipalities flags, I'll hardly understand the autonomous to be different.)

  • User:FayssalF:Esto significa que ambos son aceptables. Sin embargo, damos más peso a material con fuentes y por lo tanto no puedo apoyar algo que no lleva ninguna fuente y confía solamente en usos ocasionales. Apoyo totalmente la versión de Maurice obviamente

(Translation: We give more weight to any material with sources, for which i can not back up something which does not have any source and only believes in occasional uses. I'm backing totally Maurice's version obviously)

  • User:Valentinian: (You wrote it yourself) "FOTW describes the proportions as unspecified but that 2:3 would be the intention of the relevant law."

Benimerin, you gotta be kiding us. I can't find another explanation. Are you trying to say that I am lying about what other user said??? even when it is registered and logged???

In addition, I will quote both links described by you above, as you accuse me of "ignore continously the decree related to Valencian flag":


-Artículo 5 -Punto Uno. La tradicional señera de la Comunidad Valenciana está compuesta por cuatro barras rojas sobre fondo amarillo, coronadas sobre franja azul junto al asta.

  • Ley 8/1984, de 4 de diciembre, por la que se regulan los símbolos de la Comunidad Valenciana y su utilización [DOGV núm. 211, de 13 de diciembre]

-TÍTULO I (De la bandera) -Artículo 2: La Bandera de la Comunidad Valenciana es la tradicional «Senyera» compuesta por cuatro barras rojas sobre fondo amarillo, coronadas sobre franja azul junto al asta.

They say the same thing! Exactly word by word. Ask yourself... How could the text of law by a government state another thing that its very own statute?

And do I ignore it? As far as I'm concerned, this very same text, obviously translated to english, is what became the very first lead paragraph since the very first edit to create the article at 20:01, 9 July 2007: "The flag of the Valencian Community is the traditional Valencian crowned Senyera, composed of four red bars on a yellow background, crowned with a blue strip party per pale next to the spear with 1/4 of the total length." (see Creation of the article)

Any other false accusation claiming I didn't include what laws say about the flag?

If I'm " a blind person", you have to be probably illiterate yourself. --Maurice27 11:37, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

The quotations bold made by you are personal interpretations with no external reference about why proportion might not be mentioned, and it's out of the topic. I've also added my opinion that 1:2 is traditional because of historical reasons, but as you dislike it, you don't count on me. We, the wikimedians, aren't authority here, according to WP:NOR, neither you. In the other hand, the Statute covers several things, but Law 8/1984 only covers specifically and extensivelly about Valencian symbols, and if in this last document there is no mention to proportions, but it only says that it shouldn't be bigger or smaller to Spanish or European flag, it's significant. It means that several ratios can be used, as the proofs is showing in pics that there are being used by government ratio 1:2 when it's alone and ratio 2:3 when it's together with flag of Spain. The version left by Zscouts have more sources and is the most equilibrated one and the most concrete one, IMHO. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 11:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
ROFL!! Now, the fact of quoting word by word a law is a personal interpretation...
ROFL!! Zscout hasn't done any version!!! He has just modified the infobox while investigating!! "more sources and is the most equilibrated one and the most concrete one" <-- Those are your sources! "Equilibrated"? "Concrete"? It's nothing but your very own version! Who are you trying to fool? --Maurice27 12:40, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
You're starting to be unrespectful, as you often do when you have no arguments. I do not want to waste more time of mine with you. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 12:58, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Feeling like losing the north, right? ;) --Maurice27 13:04, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Hello Falks ! I´m afraid this discussion will be endless, because there is no official definition of the flag´s proportions. Common sense would follow national and most local flags, which are 2:3. It doesn´t matter where some 1:2 or 2:3 flags are flying (whether the spot is more historical or important). I don´t see any reason for older units to be mainly 1:2, either. It´s just a matter of personal taste, and, therefore, a problem difficult to solve. Publish both versions and leave it to the readers. --Banderas 16:57, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
And that is what I have done. Both versions are displayed (I even renamed them to show an even playing field.) I also am trying to remove most original research in the article. I consider this dispute solved. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 18:40, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Can I continue editing now the article in order to expand it?. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 21:37, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 07:01, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Source erasing by Benimerin[edit]

May this section be used to explain that the erasing by Benimerin of the book "Banderas de España" as a source/reference is completely unjustified. The book is also a reference at FOTW, which proves the quality and veracity of the content. An exhaustive research about all the flags in the history of Spain. The only problem (for Benimerin) is that it has a 2:3 flag. --Maurice27 16:19, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

We solved the ratio issue, we are displaying both flags. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 02:26, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

name of the article[edit]

Sorry for my bad english. I think that the name of the article must be the valencian one, Senyera Reial, not the castilian one. In these cases, of non-english realities, the most logical thing is to try the original name or the english name, but it has no sense to try a name in a third language. I hope I've been able to express what i mean. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 22:47, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Correct proportions of flag is 2:3[edit]

Correct proportions of Valencian Community flag are 2:3. References:

More references:

-- (talk) 01:54, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I have edited the post above for format and pointing at duplications. --Enric Naval (talk) 23:21, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Well, the Spanish society of vexicology displays a 2:3 flag [18]. The catalan one [19] has two links: a link to the spanish society, and a link to a Flags of the World page that displays also a 2:3 flag[20]. For that last website, it also displays 2:3 on the page for the catalan senyera [21] and on the page for the origin of the senyera [22]. Encarta also uses a 2:3 flag[23] and states the proportions as 2:3 [24] --Enric Naval (talk) 23:28, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

removal again of Calvo and Gravalos reference[edit]

(Replying to comment on section above)

This is the text in dispute [32]:

The drawing uses a ratio of 2:3. The precious stones are -E-S-E-S- (E: emerald or green oval; S: sapphire or blue quatrefoil; each hyphen would represent a pearl or white circle), from bottom hoist to top. The width of the blue band (including the thin red stripe carrying the jewels) is about 1/5th of the fly. scanned picture of the book

And my rewording[33]:

Altought the law doesn't establish the exact proportions of the flag and no drawing of it is provided, the Calvo & Gràvalos' book shows a depiction of the flag with a ratio of 2:3. In that depiction, the width of the blue band (including the thin red stripe carrying the jewels) is about 1/5th of the fly. The precious stones appearing on the depiction are -E-S-E-S- (E: emerald or green oval; S: sapphire or blue quatrefoil; each hyphen would represent a pearl or white circle), from bottom hoist to top. scanned picture of the book

Benimerin, your complaint was this was not a drawing from the BOE but a personal drawing, so I changed the wording to address that issue, but you have removed it anyways with the same complaint.

You also say that it's "wrong and confused", but the wording used by Maurice is not his personal interpretation, it's the wording that Jaume Olle's page uses when citing this book on its page about the valencian community [34], and the book is written by Luís Grávalos González and José Luís Calvo Pérez who have written several books each on vexicology stuff, so they are probably reliable sources for what the flag looks like.

Benimerin, the wording was changed to make it clear that it's *not* a drawing from BOE, and the book is probably a reliable source. Give some good reasons for why the source shouldn't be used, or stop removing it. --Enric Naval (talk) 13:36, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Because the depicting is a scanning made by Maurice27 and there is not evidence that it comes thruthfully from the book he's telling us. It's clearly "primary investigation" that shouldn't be done in Wikipedia. The decission from the author that he draws a flag in 2:3 is a possibility that I respect, because it's correct than 1:2. But the only factual evidence is that in any law it's telling nothing about the ratio, nor the BOE, nor the DOGV. The autor would have chosen 2:3 as he also would be able to choose 1:2. I haven't removed the reference to Grávalos and Calvo, I've removed the description made by Maurice27 of the drawing scanned supposedly from the book: "Altought the law doesn't establish the exact proportions of the flag and no drawing of it is provided, the Calvo & Gràvalos' book shows a depiction...". I've left remaining the factual source, and I've removed opinions from him that is clearly personal investigation. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 13:47, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Aw, come on, read my comment again. Maurice was not using his own wording, he was using Santiago Dotor's wording on Jaume Ollé's page, check the link. Also, we are citing a vexicological book that studies flags on spain, that's not a primary source, that's clearly a secondary source. Also, you are assuming that the book is arbitrarily using a 2:3 proportion with no proof of it. Also, you are implying that Maurice is lying about the book with no proof, that's just a bad faith assumption and you should stop doing that. --Enric Naval (talk) 14:56, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Repeat my comment from avove since it fits here too! A comparison to the Catalan WP would be worth noting: [35] which is also an "Article de qualitat" [36] --Floridianed (talk) 20:25, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
This is not bad faith. Maurice27 has been blocked several times because of vandalistic attitudes, and because of breaking WP policies and wikietiquette, most of them because editwarring against users who collaborates mainly in catalan-speaking related articles. So it's normal I have no good faith on him, not because of my personal impressions, but because of his history as "collaborator". At least I was never blocked because of none of those reasons. In the same way you claimed to me, Maurice27 have "càrrega de prova" to support that his scanning comes really from the book. Enric, you shouldn't ask for proofs to me and, in the other hand, claim for good faith to Maurice27. It's biaised from you.
It's not only about the ratios for the Valencian flag of today, but also for the former mordern Valencian flags: there isn't any reference about proportions for the Valencian Country Preautonomous Council (never regulated anywhere in the Law of this, but used de facto), nor for the purposed Senyera of Benicàssim (regulation purposed, but with no mention to ratios in Project of Statute of Autonomy).
But here in Wikipedia both of those flags are depicted in 2:3 because it's the common proportions, and because there are no evidence of other ratios. But the fact is that no ratio is regulated or purposed for those former and actual flags of Valencian Country. All those pics of the former Valencian flags were made by myself, and I used 2:3 because of it, and because nowadays there are some persons using those flags in a clearly 2:3 ratios (see an example).
In the other hand, here in Valencia it's a common costume to enlarge the part of the four-barred of the flag in special days, in special meannings or in special ocasions, such festive days in the windows of the City Hall buildings. So it's very normal to enlarge to 1:2 the Valencian flag in places with very high meanning of historical reasons, because of very high solemnity, or because it's hoisted alone. I have no evidence that this costume were applied to the former Valencian flag, but I've provided evidences of using 1:2 in the today flag of Valencia (another new exemple). I will provide soon photos of the flag used at Towers of Serranos, Tower of Quart, Llotja de la Seda and the Palau de la Música, all those as public buildings and/or very important historical meaning in Valencia city. I will take care to show that these are clearly 1:2 proportions.
In add, one of the url you refer, in the same page about Santiago Dotor, there's also another expert on flags observing about the proportions, Jaume Ollé. He's an expert in vexilo of Catalan-speaking historical territories (and is one of our best users in Wikipedia in Catalan). He's saying the same as me, Valencian flag is depicted 2:3 when it's hoisted together the Spanish flag. Not at all, the law tells explicity that it shouldn't be more big than the flag of Spain, and because of it it's 2:3 when it's hoisted together flag of Spain. But, again, it's 1:2 when it's hoisted alone (and not always, by exemple, in the Tower of Quart, Valencia, the Flag of Spain proportion has been changed to 1:2 in order to be able to maintain the 1:2 of the Flag of Valencia, in order to respect Valencian people feelings). Finally, in the supposition it comes from the book, the only reason that Gràvalos used 2:3 in the depicting is because probably in the gallery of flags there would be also the flag of Spain. But IMHO, it was actually an arbitrary decission, and the only important matter is that any ratio is regulated, nor 1:2 nor 2:3 for the flag of the Valencian Country.
And, finally, I think that in this article must mention that the senyera as is, without the blue stripe, is also used as representative for a important sector of Valencians. An example can be found there from the town of El Campello celebrating the October 9th, day of the foundation of the Kingdom of Valencia. Salut. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 09:07, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Let's see
  1. we are not discussing Maurice's behaviour or intentions, we are discussing the Calvo & Gravalos source
  2. wikipedia requires sources for stuff, and all sources indicate a 2:3 source for the autonomical flag, with the best sources being the catalan and spanish societies of vexicology, and Calvo & Gravalos book, which also a vexicological book
  3. photographies are not reliable sources, although most editors will agree that they are reliable enough to indicate that the 1:2 ratio is sometimes used, but not reliable enough to challenge scholar sources
  4. the proportions on the scanned page are not because of the flag of spain. On the same page, on the bottom, they don't have any problem to use a 1:2 flag of an autonomous community, in spite of the flag of spain being right above. The fact is that they are depicting a 2:3 flag and not a 1:2 one, and you are only using personal opinions to dismiss a vexicological source as invalid, instead of providing sources of equal or better quality.
  5. for Jaume Ollé, you are changing what he says with your personal interpretations of stuff that he doesn't mention. He says that law does not set a ratio, then says that the spirit of the law is 2:3, but that the pictures show usage of the 1:2 ratio. Also, he takes the Calvo & Gravalos source as valid. I left a note on his talk page to come here and comment on it.
You still have to provide any proof that Calvo & Gràvalos are wrong, or that they would make a mistake such as describing the flag incorrectly or drawing the proportions incorrectly, so you are going against verifiability policy by acting on personal opinions against published reliable sources, so don't revert the source again unless you can provide valid sources that show that this source is incorrect --Enric Naval (talk) 18:32, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I fear to talk here because valencian symbols are one of the most sensitive matters in our lands.
The quotations in Fotw sometimes are out of context and I don't remember that pictures 1:2 I was speaking when I wrote.
The sure think, is that the law 8/94 don't fix the proportions (full text available in "Banderas" issue 14, March 1995), only the size (greater o smaller size don't change proportions) in comparation with others flags. For some time (and even now) flags in different proportions were used and manufactured, but I believe that only 2:3 was official because the additional disposition 4) of the law stablish that, in the not regulated, it will be according the law of 28 octuber 1981 about spanish flag.
I assume that was easy for the manufacturers take a catalan flags 2:3 and then to add the elaborate hoist blue with crown, giving a flag in proportion c. 1:2; the historical "senyera coronada" is not in 1:2, is hoisted vertically, and the original size is unknow because was cut partially; the blue was added probably for complete it and to be hanged
The flag in 1:2 can't be discarded because really was and is used, but I consider more accurate currently show the official flag as 2:3. Jolle -- (talk) 02:13, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I've been reading againg the law 8/94 and to find the observation given by Jolle, and I agree him. Nonetheless, this is a good reason to maintain the 2:3 flag in infobox, as data from there should be made from official references. But I still think that there's no reason to replace everywhere and sistematically the 1:2 for the 2:3 as Maurice27 has been doing around of two months after the compromise of solution. So I will undo all those replacements except when there would be good reason for it, it means, official meaning. In the other hand, altough the ratio of the original Valencian senyera is unknow, I want to note that in several historical paintings and drawings, specially in swallowtailed Valencian flags, the four-barred section is often depicted very very enlarged (such in this portulano from 1473). In this dossier we can also find a lot of 1:2 ratios used from the beginning of the 20th Century until our days. And, the last thing, Enric, I've discussed Maurice27 attitude because you're putting in discussion my attitud: the person who broke the compromise of solution first was not me. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 19:06, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
PD: For those who is interested about the Valencian senyera, can go to visit this exposition about it. In one of the section of the bulletin, you will see a small pic with a 1:2 senyera, probably from the Tower of Serranos. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 19:12, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
PD: If this page is renamed as "Flag of Valencia", I think that the "senyera" as is, without the blue stripe, should be included here. It is because it's also a representative flag for many Valencian persons. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 19:21, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Regarding your last comment please see my comment above at: "Article to be moved to "Flag of Valencia". ". Regards, --Floridianed (talk) 21:54, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
There is a damned good reason for using the 2:3 version: it's the only official version. The 1:2 version belongs to this article, where the usage on non-official versions can be covered on detail, and the usage of different ratios on portulanos can be analized. Also, as Jolle points out, the historical senyera is not 1:2 and we don't the original size, and the usage in portulanos and other sources is your original research of primary sources, which is forbidden by wikipedia policy, and you aren't backing your analysis with any secondary source. So, no, you can't undo those replacements. --Enric Naval (talk) 21:37, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Sure, 2:3 ratio can be considered as official by default, so it must be used in official meaning. But in the cases that it was replaced by Maurice27 and no official meaning has, so there is no reason for the replacement. You must understand that "popular flags" can be very different from "official flags". Nonetheless, altough 2:3 ratio is official by omission, it's also undoubtably that the use of 1:2 in official buldings such Llotja de la Seda or ca:Torres de Quart (where in the article we can see a flag of Spain in 1:2 ratio, instead of 2:3 established by law, because Valencian flag is 1:2) is giving those flag also a very important institutional consideration. Because those buldings belongs to the autonomous Valencian Government.
In the other hand, the references I've been giving is not to support the 1:2 ratio, you're mistaken, you're in wrong way reading me. Please, stop struggling against me. The references I've given is to support those I was telling about the costume to enlarging the four-bared sector of the flag and, subsequently, the origin reason for 1:2 ratio used until now. And the dossier link given here, some of the pics there's showing clearly 1:2. It's not original research, it's evidence.
In short, by Law because of omission it's 2:3, but vexilologically the ratio is not fixed. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 22:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Since there is nothing official to be found about the ratio of the Flag (and I did quite some research by now)I agree to keep the 2:3 ratio as default (not as official) and include whereever possible (as here of course) the 1:2 flag as I'm sure, it is widely used in the Valencian community; No doubt about it! Regards, --Floridianed (talk) 22:02, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes, there is something official. See the comment above on additional disposition 4 of the law, it says to use the law for the spanish flag if it's not specifically regulated. --Enric Naval (talk) 14:56, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm agree with him, as I said above. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 22:07, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
So it seems we solved a major disagreement and have only work out the small print? Sounds great. Thanks Benimerin. Regards, --Floridianed (talk) 22:17, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Now to make this clear and final: Any objections to it (see last few comments)? --Floridianed (talk) 00:49, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Let's make an acclaration. I don't oppose showing photos of buildings where a 1:2 flag appears, like in Llotja de la Seda, and I don't oppose to photos of historical documents, as soon as they are not being used to support original research on the proportions of the flag, and you can start adding them right away.
What I oppose is using 1:2 for icons and depictions of the flag outside of the specific article on the flag, like on the list of flags at Senyera or at Miss Spain. Or like in List of Spanish flags [37], Names of the Valencian Community [38], Valencian Community [39], Gallery of striped flags, infobox at Marina Alta (my mistake, this is the specific flag for this village, no idea of its proportions so I won't touch it), and infobox icon at Siege of Barcelona. Or pushing the flag in templates like Template:Valencia-stub [40] and Template:Country data Valencian Community [41]. If you want to use the 1:2 version there, then, by wikipedia's verifiability policy, you will have to be prepared to explain why on hell the 1:2 flag version is better than the 2:3 version despite all the sources (a justified use would be, for example, an article on some nationalist group that happens to claim that the 1:2 version is better, in which case it would be perfectly ok to show that flag).
Also, about those images with misleading names Image:Flag of the Land of Valencia (official).svg and Image:Flag of Valencia Autonomo community.png, I'm going to upload 2x3 versions on top of them. You see, the only official version is the 2:3 one, and it's the one used by vexicological sources, and this is just misleading uninvolved editors that are brought to believe that this is the official flag. Anyone wanting to show the 1:2 version can use Image:Flag of the Land of Valencia (1x2 ratio).svg, which has an accurate name, so when doing the replacement I'll add to the image page a link to that image for people wanting the unofficial version.
Also, I'll replace the Calvo & Gravalos source (this section was about that, remember?), as a valid vexicological source, and as the reasons given for removal were personal opinions on the validity of the source and were not backed by any equivalent or superior source.
And if you think that I'm behaving like a little dictator or something, then I'll ask that you go to the nearest public library, you ask for the books talking about flags, and you start reading them until you find a book talking about historical 1:2 valencian flags, and then you present the book here to support your argument, like wikipedia's verifiability policies say. The sources for 2:3 have been already presented by other editors, if you want to use the 1:2 flag in wikipedia you will have to provide sources too.
As a final point, this edit war on the 1:2 flag has been going on during many months over multiple articles and templates, but the 2:3 flag is the only one for which actual reliable secondary sources have been provided, so that's the only one that should be used on wikipedia. If I see any more edit pushing a 1:2 flag outside of the flag article without stating a very very good reason I'll treat that as unsourced OR-pushing. A lot of time and room was given already to provide reliable sources, and editors can't indefinitely ignore a core policy like WP:V, at a certain point you will have to either provide sources for your edits or abide to the sources provided by other editors, and keep abiding until new sources are provided. --Enric Naval (talk) 14:56, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
All those articles you're telling doesn't mean official meaning, so there's no reason to use one specific ratio. It's only for the infobox at Valencian Community. Salut. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 15:41, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Those flag icons are representing the vanlencian community. As far as I know, flag icons always use the official flag. I looked at WP:FLAG to find some clue, but I only found some advice on using historical flags in contexts where the difference matters, and I don't see how the difference matters on those articles (and please don't tell me "if it doesn't matter then we use 1:2". If it doesn't matter then we use the official flag). --Enric Naval (talk) 23:31, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

law 8/94[edit]

Talking about laws... On the section above, Jaume Ollé talks about law 8/94, and says "(full text available in "Banderas" issue 14, March 1995)". Unfortunately, I don't have access to that magazine, and the only thing I could find online is organic law 8/94 [42], but it only talks about Extremadura.

Can someone please indicate me the full name of the law so I can find an online version to use as source on the article? --Enric Naval (talk) 13:07, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Loyalty shown in .. wars?[edit]

The article states that LL stands for

[...]loyalty and courage shown by Valencians to him in several wars [...]

I think it should rather be "the loyalty [...] in two wars". Although I don't have a source to back it up, I learnt it this way. And if it was more than two wars, it would be easy to depict the letter "L" more than twice, wouldn't it? -- (talk) 21:26, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Width of the blue strip[edit]

Could anyone add any source for the width of the blue strip? As far as I know, the law of symbols of the Valencian community doesn't mention this detail and, in fact, in public buildings you can find official flags of the community with very diverse widths for the blue strip. Where did this 1/4 thing, that the article claims, come from? Loqu (talk) 22:43, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

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