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- 1 references
- 2 Flamenco is not folk music or folk dance and never was
- 3 Flamenco song forms
- 4 More deletions
- 5 Origins of flamenco
- 6 Other comments
- 7 History: Overview
- 8 Fandangos, from Málaga?
- 9 Palos
- 10 The rise of flamenco
- 11 Flamenco guitar
- 12 What weasel words is the tag referring to?
- 13 flamenc=gitano??
- 14 WikiProject
- 15 Phrygian Mode etc
- 16 Another Phrygian question
- 17 Image copyright problem with Image:Siguiriyas30.ogg
- 18 Please, let us be serious
- 19 Should it be mentioned that the Romani of Spain came down into Spain from Flemish lands?
- 20 Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jewish Influences?
- 21 Introduction update
- 22 Ambiguity in Compás section
- 23 Harmony, Compas and Structure
- 24 Folk music
- 25 Support from Spanish Wikipedia
- 26 External links modified
- 27 No early history of Flamenco
- 28 Etymology
1. ↑ Véase la 3ª acepción del término flamenco en el Diccionario de Real Academia Española. 2. ↑ Mendoza, Gabriela (2011). «Ser flamenco no es una música, es un estilo de vida». El Diario de Hoy: p. 52. http://www.elsalvador.com/mwedh/nota/nota_completa.asp?idCat=8615&idArt=5620732. 3. ↑ En El Salvador la agrupación Alma Flamenca es considerada la máxima representante y pionera de este movimiento musical. Mendoza, Gabriela (2011). «Ser flamenco no es una música, es un estilo de vida». El Diario de Hoy: p. 52. http://www.elsalvador.com/mwedh/nota/nota_completa.asp?idCat=8615&idArt=5620732. 4. ↑ El flamenco es declarado Patrimonio Cultural Inmaterial de la Humanidad por la Unesco, Yahoo Noticias, 16 de noviembre de 2010, consultado el mismo día. 5. ↑ El Origen Musical de los Animales Símbolos en la Mitología y la Escultura Antiguas. Barcelona. 1946. 6. ↑ INFANTE, Blas.Orígenes de lo flamenco y secreto del cante jondo. 1929-1931. 7. ↑ P. GARCÍA BARRIOSO. La música hispanomusulmana en Marruecos. Larache. 1941. 8. ↑ DE VEGA, Luis Antonio. Origen del Flamenco. El baile de los pájaros que se acompañan con sus trinos. 9. ↑ PEDRELL, Felipe. Cancionero Musical Popular Español. Tomo II, Apéndice. 10. ↑ Demófilo añade que los andaluces llamaban "flamencos" a los gitanos en sentido humorístico, pues para nombrar "lo moreno" ("caló" y "calé" significan "negro") recurrían al prototipo de "lo rubio", usando la figura retórica llamada ironía. Los andaluces, en contrapartida, eran llamados gachós por los gitanos. MACHADO ÁLVAREZ, Antonio. Colección de Cantos flamencos recogidos y anotados por Demófilo. Sevilla. 1881. Véase la definición de gaché en el DRAE. 11. ↑ Véase el capítulo I de The Zincali: an account of the gypsies of Spain en el Proyecto Gutenberg 12. ↑ Véase la 4º acepción de la voz flamenco en el DRAE. 13. ↑ Véase la definición de cante hondo o jondo en el DRAE. 14. ↑ MEDINA AZARA (seudónimo de Máximo José Kahn). "Cante jondo y cantares sinagogales" en Revista de Occidente. Madrid. 1930. 15. ↑ GARCÍA MATOS, Manuel. "Cante flamenco, algunos de sus presuntos orígenes" en Anuario Musical nº 5. 1950. Pág. 99. ROSSY, Hipólito. Teoría del Cante Flamenco. Barcelona. 1966. Pág. 15. 16. ↑ DE FALLA, Manuel. "El cante jondo", en Escritos sobre Música y Músicos. Introducción y notas de SOPEÑA, Federico. Ed. Espasa Calpe. Colección Austral nº 53. Madrid. 1972. ISBN 84-239-1853-X. 17. ↑ La hibridación transcultural como clave de la formación del Nuevo Flamenco (aspectos histórico-sociológicos, analíticos y comparativos), por Gerhard Steingress. 18. ↑ Diario El Economista (26 de junio de 2008). «Cultura confirma que el Centro Nacional de Flamenco de Jerez canalizará todas las iniciativas sobre este arte». Consultado el 20 de octubre de 2009. 19. ↑ Nuevo paso de la Junta para incluir el flamenco en el currículo escolar 20. ↑ Véase cante en el DRAE. 21. ↑ El picado consiste en pulsar una cuerda con el dedo índice y medio alternativamente, apoyando los dedos en la cuerda inmediatamente superior. 22. ↑ El trémolo que es la acción de pulsar con el meñique, el anular, el medio y el índice una misma cuerda de forma consecutiva y rápida. Es una técnica que en el flamenco se ejecuta usando cuatro dedos, mientras que en la guitarra clásica se usan solamente tres (anular, corazón e índice). 23. ↑ Véase la definición de falseta en el DRAE. 24. ↑ Investigadores de la UCA elaboran el primer estudio cinemático del baile flamenco con tecnología 3D 25. ↑ Véase la 11ª acepción del término palo en el DRAE. 26. ↑ Ríos Ruiz, Manuel: Introducción al cante flamenco, Edt. Istmo, Madrid, 1972, Dep.Leg. M-6.269-1972, p.78 27. ↑ Janheinz Jahn. Muntu. Las culturas de la negritud. Ediciones Guadarrama, Madrid. 1970. Págs 190-191. Más recientemente los estudios de los musicólogos sevillanos Antonio y David Hurtado. La Llave de la Música Flamenca, Ed. Signatura, Sevilla, 2009 28. ↑ Danza de derviches tunecinos en que se puede escuchar dos veces la voz "ole". Según Salazar, el origen del verbo joleh podría estar en el litúrgico Hallel. SALAZAR, Adolfo.La música de España. Ed. Espasa Calpe, Madrid. Colección Austral. 1514. 1975. Pág. 44-45. 29. ↑ Véase la definición de jalear en el DRAE. 30. ↑ Véase la definición de ojear2 en el DRAE. 31. ↑ Véase las 2ª y 3ª acepciones de ole en el DRAE. 32. ↑ Véase la 4ª acepción de duende en el DRAE. 33. ↑ Véase la definición de cuadro flamenco en el DRAE. 34. ↑ Véase la definición de tablao en el DRAE. 35. ↑ Véase la definición de juerga flamenca en el DRAE. 36. ↑ Se conoce como tercio a cada una de las frases melódicas de los cantes flamencos.
Flamenco is not folk music or folk dance and never was
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All Flamenco topics should actually not be in the "spanish folk music" category. Flamenco was created and has been formed by professional musicians. Even if the music has not been taken down in writing and the performers sometimes did not even know how to read and write, Flamenco music and dance has always been a highly sophisticated art form. You might as well classify Jazz or the Indian Raga as folk music. Martinvie (talk) 18:56, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
- The 19th century amateur historians and folklorists who "traced" its origins back to the 15th century have been debunked in recent decades by professional historians as speculators and mythmakers. User:Provocateur (talk)
By a narrower definition Flamenco is not folk ("old songs, with no known composers").
But it has either got to be classical music (like Indian Ragas, always performed by clasically trained musicians), popular music (like rock and roll or Motown) or folk music in a wider sense -- which includes Fado, the Blues, or Rebetico (with Jazz on the borderline between folk music and popular music; Jazz drew on popular dance music, a very "commercial" form, not represenative of a particular region or people).
(I'm satisfied with the line from the Wikipedia article proposing that "COMMERCIAL" is the opposite of folk: "(Folk) has been contrasted with commercial and classical styles", and would then say, you can label as "Folk" any indigenous music with a limited audience and much kinship between the ("professional") artists and that audience.)
"Folk" is used in the Rebetico article for a music comparable with jazz in that it was a sophisticated urban music invented by people who were already professional musicians in different styles: "Rebetiko, ... is a term used today to designate originally disparate kinds of urban Greek folk music which have come to be grouped together since the so-called rebetika revival, which started in the 1960s and developed further from the early 1970s onwards." 188.8.131.52 (talk) 20:47, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
Flamenco song forms
I've started putting in a list of the flamenco song forms. I think it's probably best just to name them here and give each one a separate page to describe its characteristics. On the other hand it might be better to have pages for cante jondo, cante chico etc. and use those to describe all the relevant forms. This page is still very much a work in progress and would definitely benefit from some more expert input. Magnus 12:11 Apr 18, 2003 (UTC)
- Hi Magnus, I've reclassified the song forms. The previous form only had compás as its only criterium for classification, but the usual classification takes other things into account, like their origin: some forms are considered subclassification of other forms, as it happens with the palos inside the cantiñas group. Besides, some forms were not classified depending on their real compás: there was no category for the tango rhythm, for example. I intend to do some more work on this part of the article. I think this part of the article should be treated as a kind of map, with only titles and a very basic description of the groups, and then they should point to a more complete article on the palo itself. BTW, I've also started an article about malagueñas.GemmaMS 22:12, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Deletion: "The art of flamenco dance was immediately defined in the contrast between male and female styles." from the "Golden Age" section. I think this comment is out of the scope of this section. Also, I've never heard that this differentition must haev come at this particular time in history: it must be a lot older, and it's typical of many folklores. GemmaMS 18:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Deletion: "Julián Arcas was one of the first composers to write flamenco music especially for the guitar." Julián Arcas never wrote "flamenco" pieces. He was always a classical guitarist. He wrote pieces some pieces which were inspired by flamenco, but composing flamenco pieces is quite different. In his turn, he probably influenced flamenco guitarists. But this sentence is misleading. It would be interesting, though, to write an article about the mutual influence of flamenco and classical guitar. GemmaMS 18:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
- Regarding song forms, I notice that Tango points to the Argentinian Tango. I understand that that is a form quite distinct from the Tangos Flamenco. Will check with my expert. Any direct knowlege out there? --Davout 14:04, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Totally distinct! An article on flamenco tango has to be created (and a corresponding disambiguation page). GemmaMS 22:12, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Origins of flamenco
- clarification:: although flamenco originated mainly in Andalusia, other regions such as Murcia and Extremadura have done an extensive contribution to some of its palos. Besides, at a later stage in its development it was "exported" to other parts of the Spanish state and even abroad: this involved a growing number of excellent flamenco artists who were not born in Andalucía, some of which have left a seminal legacy, like Ramón Montoya. On the aspect of race, flamenco, is not an exclusive creation of the gypsies, either, but certainly without their contribution flamenco would be a very different thing. GemmaMS 22:12, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- and I add: without the non-gypsies it would also be very differentGemmaMS 22:17, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Flamenco is the music of the gypsies and played in their social community. Gypsy Andalusian people who grew up around gypsies and the life were also accepted as "flamencos" (Paco de Lucía)." This sentence is not right. Flamenco is a complex mixture of musical roots. Gipsies wer quite important in flamenco's consolidation, but the roots form Spanish native roots has a similar importance. Some of the greatest singers and players - i.e. Don Antonio Chacon or Paco de Lucía - were or are not Gipsy. And Silverio Fraconetti, the first XIX century great singer, first with a structured vision o flamenco, had Italian roots. And Today, Miguel Poveda, for example, no Gipssy, is one of the most important ´cantaores´. On the other hand, other regions as Extremadura or Murcia, which has neber been in Andalucía are really important for flamenco. Specially Murcia, where the mine variations area basic for the current dramatic aspects. Even, tradicional music from Aragon, jotas, were impotant for the creation of the 'palo' called 'Alegrias', during the Spanish Independece war against Napoleon. Therefore, 'flamencos' is term which is imputed to those artist and persons which has a deep knowledge of the music, dance o interpretation and are close to this culture.
been reading up about origins of flamenco, and would like to point out that it has absolutely nothing to do with the sephardim. they left spain in 1492 (edict of explusion), well over 400yrs before flamenco emerged. according to a paper by alvarez cabellero read out at the flamenco history conference in 1997, flamenco history can be divided into 5 areas which i have summarised below:
- (1) preflamenco (pre1765) andalusian gypsy, and popular non-gypsy influences
- (2) the era of the "primitives" (c.1765-1860) not sure what he means by this
- (3) the "Golden Age" (ca. 1860-1910) dance cafes
- (4) the era of the opera flamenca (c.1910-1955) influence from the americas, flamenco on the concert stage
- (5) the "renaissance" (c.1955-1985) guitar, singing, dancing as a performance art etc
i take it back. i am not sure whether the music of the sephardim had anything to do with it...conversos remained after the edict of expulsion...documentation is complicated coz they would've been killed if anyone knew they were still practicing jews. hmmm... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 13:41, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
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Is no-one writing here aware that the term gypsy is highly derogatory to the Roma people? Not only does the form that is correctly credited to the Roma on the page get attributed to the Spanish, but the incidental credit that they do get is phrased as an insult - something akin to 'the blues is Ni..er music. Please think twice before you use the term. 220.127.116.11 (talk) 00:09, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
- The careful work of modern historians, built patiently on facts, not speculation and myth, has debunked all that old romantic hypothetical "pre-1765" "pre-flamenco history", and "hermetic period" nonsense of earlier folklorists. Flamenco or pre-flamenco did not exist before the later 1700s.
Romani origins (Even Spanish government recognise it)
- Who cares what the Spanish government says? Cite only respected and up to date historians of the subject, NOT governments or tourist bodies or international bodies with a political axe to grind, PC or otherwise.
I suggest that the term flamenco is too generalized. The article itself is losin
The article says that the style started with accompaniment and without. Any idea which is correct? No, it isn't, of course. Should be better explained.GemmaMS 20:58, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Sometimes you write "Andalusia" and sometimes "Andalucia"... is this okay?
Still needs reworking, but I've removed some repetitions and inaccurate parts:
- "Flamenco singers are specifically renowned for their somewhat harsh and natural vocal quality. This style is meant to evoke the nature of suffering so closely related to the origins of the music."
- This is prejudice, in the period between 1955 and our days, these "harsh" voices have been predominant. But if you listen to the records between 1900 and 1955, most of the voices are in fact quite thin, incredibly supple and capable or reaching very high notes. Many types of voices have coexisted in flamenco since early times. In the book Escenas andaluzas by Estébanez Calderón, written in 1847, we can read a conversation between two of the most famous Gypsy cantaores: El Planeta, and El Fillo. The latter was known for his extremely harsh voice, so harsh that this type of voice has come to be known among flamenco fans as afillá. El Planeta, the older master, tells the young "El Fillo", talking about another harsh-voiced singer, El Broncano, that "Broncano's voice is harsh and unacceptable and his style is not elegant, and not from this land, so I beg you (...) not to walk in his waters: stay in the old path, and don't move an inch from it." The whole episode can be read (in Spanish) in the Instituto Cervantes virtual library: (deleted link, sorry, the Biblioteca Cervantes has exaggerated rules to link to it, including even the type of font which must be used (!!!). GemmaMS 20:58, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- Blas Infante was not an etymologist. He studied Law, and he is known as the founder of Andalusian nationalism. See http://www.fundacionblasinfante.org/mblas.html GemmaMS 22:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Fandangos, from Málaga?
I've deleted the following sentence: "It is almost certain that fandangos are folk forms which originated in Málaga, Spain." Strange, I've been into flamenco for years and I've never heard this theory. Certainly, the malagueñas and some other fandango styles come from Málaga. But there are many theories about the origin of fandango, and they're out of the scope of a general article about flamenco. GemmaMS 22:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I've also deleted this one: "There are early song and dance forms that appear to be direct forebears of flamenco. These are the romances and jacaras, both of which guard one of the basic compas patterns of flamenco. As well, the zarabandas and the early fandangos guarded a compas "abandalao". The compas of the fandangos is still sung in the province of Málaga." The first part is about the romances and jácaras is a repetition of other ideas. I've never heard that zarabandas had compás abandolao: compás abandolao is a regular 6/8, totally different. And Málaga, again!! There must have been somebody from Málaga here! The eternal habit of flamenco fans (and many critics) to set the origins of everything in their backyard. GemmaMS
- I agree with Burgas, I've always heard that fandangos are traditionally from Huelva. --Gibmetal 77talk 17:41, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Deleted: "The most fundamental palos are: Toná, Soleá, Fandango and Seguiriya. These four palos all belong in the cante jondo category and form the rhythmic basis for nearly all the other palos." I've deleted this sentence for the following reasons:
- It leaves totally out the palos in 4/4 metre, which are also considered "basic"... whatever "basic" means in flamenco (a rather controversial category).
- Fandango is not traditionally considered "jondo", although this is controversial.GemmaMS 16:08, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Also deleted: "The cante jondo, called the mother of flamenco, consists of 12 beats, with accents on the 3rd, 6th, 8th, 10th, and 12th beats. Songs are composed of several falsetas with rhythms defined by the song form."
Cante jondo is NOT defined by its compás, but, traditionally on the basis of two factors:
- Its serious, pathetic nature
- Its Gypsy, origin (by contrast with palos with Andalusian folkloric origin, with Ibero-American influences, etc.
- Songs are not composed of falsetas: falsetas are not sung!
Deleted: "Flamenco cante consists of a number of traditional (and not-so-traditional) forms, with characteristic rhythmic and harmonic structures. The rhythm (compas) is perhaps the most fundamental distinguishing feature of the different flamenco forms." It is redundant information. GemmaMS 16:17, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
The rise of flamenco
This section was full of outdated theories, probably taken from books written in the sixties or earlier. Those theories have been exposed from modern research.GemmaMS 18:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi all. Any help with Flamenco guitar would be appreciated. 30% of the current page was written by me surfing the net and writing things as I thought they were important (no copy-paste, though).
-- TimNelson 11:01, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
!!! DYLAN HUNT IS NOT A FLAMENCO GUITARIST !!!
I am not sure how to go about this (editing), but there is a comment on this page refering to guitarists not playing by themselves any more (which is arguable), "except for a few guitarists like "Dylan Hunt" and Gerardo Núñez". Who is Dylan Hunt? The link takes you somewhere that does not portray a guitarist (some futuristic movie).
Apologies if this is not the place or the procedure for this edit.
==== Juan Antonio Martínez==== I can be reached at jams777 at hotmail 18.104.22.168 09:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
What weasel words is the tag referring to?
If the "weasel words" are identified, they can be discussed and rewritten. If no one can identify them, then I think the tag should go. --Antonio.sierra 04:54, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
according to the spanish article, Borrow mistaked flamenc with gypsies because of the colonies of germens and flemish (flamencos in spanish) that were placed there to combat bandoleers.Lots of them joined the criminals.As many bandoleers were gypsies to begin with...the term was confusing for Borrow.
Durante el siglo XVIII el asistente Olavide pretendió combatir el bandolerismo instaurando colonias de catolicos alemanes y flamencos (tenidos por disciplinados y laboriosos) en el Alto Guadalquivir. El fracaso de adaptación de muchos de ellos engrosó las filas de las bandas de asaltadores en los que los gitanos ya eran numerosos, pudiéndose producir una confusión entre el término flamenco (que a la vez designaba también de manera jergal a la navaja) y las gentes marginales. Dicha confusión es registrada por Borrow en su viaje por España. --Brownarthur (talk) 18:38, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
¡Hola! I've been pondering for a while on the idea of having a WikiProject Flamenco. I think there are quite a number of flamenco related articles that could be grouped within the WikiProject in order to improve them and create new ones. Does anyone else think there's scope for this project? --Gibmetal 77talk 15:52, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Phrygian Mode etc
Hi, I was doing some research for my spanish A-level (a project on flamenco etc) and I noticed in the music section that it refers to guitarrists playing 'IN' the mode. A mode is certainly not a way of doing something like on an electrical item (where on say...a clock one might say that it is in 12/24 hour mode) it is a word of a similar meaning to 'scale' but thay are usually more obscure to western classical tradition where scales come from. I think the appropriate terminology would be: playing using the phrygian/dorian mode (not 'in' it).
- The terminology of a topic as old as music cannot be expected to be very consistent, but it is very common for musicians to refer to a scale that a piece is written "in", not "on" or "using" (e.g., J. S. Bach wrote a "Mass IN B Minor", not a "Mass ON B Minor" or a "Mass USING B Minor"). As for "mode", it is indeed a scale in its own right, but the word "mode" indicates a specific relationship to another scale, often a scale of more fundamental importance. This usage of the word "mode" refers to what in mathematics is called a "cyclic permutation", e.g., given the scale C Major, C D E F G A B, a cyclic permutation involves taking the first note and moving it to the end, yielding D E F G A B C, which is as you indicate the Dorian mode. So is this D Dorian or C Dorian? I have seen both, but almost always this has been called D Dorian, the Dorian mode of C Major. Similarly, another cyclic permutation results in E F G A B C D, the Phrygian mode (these are the modern definitions of the Greek modes; there are indeed previous definitions that no one I know uses anymore, including things like "Hypodorian", etc.; see Helmholtz, "On the Sensations of Tone"). The complete set of cyclic permutations, starting with no permutation at all, generates the modern Greek modes: Ionian (same as the Major scale), Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian (same as natural minor), and Locrian. Just as there are several "minor" scales (natural, harmonic, and melodic), there are variations on the Phrygian mode, and in Flamenco, instead of E Phrygian being E F G A B C D, it frequently occurs as E F G# A B C D, which I personally call "Harmonic Phrygian", because it is a mode of A Harmonic Minor, but frankly I don't know anyone else who calls it that. The G may be sharp or natural in melodies, depending on what chord is supporting the melody at that point. Another variation is what I call "Moorish Phrygian", E F G# A B C D#, which can be found in flamenco styles called "Danza Mora", "Danza Arabe", "Zambra", to name a few. - John Fowler 22.214.171.124 (talk) 23:31, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
Just to clarify who I am to write about things like this, I am studying music A-level and have extensive knowladge of music and music terminology as it is something that really interests me anyway. I have knowladge of what a dorian mode is anyway and so I know I am right when referring to the terminology of this article. Adam2307 (talk) 18:12, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- It might be more appropriate to say that they play on a dorian/phrigian scale, rather than the mode. It is also highly doubtful that the mode they use is the same as the ones used in ancient Greek music. The medieval (more Renaissance) theorists borrowed the names from the Greeks to apply to different scales. It is also erroneous to say that Western melodies ascend rather than descend. The general form of Western (tonal) music uses and initial ascent which falls into the cadence (see the work of Schenker), and that aside, there are more than a few composers (such as Caccini and many of the monodist composers) who made it a point to use predominantly descending melodies. I love how the article states that the Dorian scale is based on the major scale, but also imples that the Dorian scale is older than the major scale... so, how is it based on something that it predates? Jmclark (talk) 07:01, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
Another Phrygian question
On the subject of the Phrygian mode... i don't know anything about Flamenco, but shouldn't there be a B in that scale? Is it left out in Flamenco? Might be worth mentioning in the article, or in the caption to the scale, if it's in fact not supposed to be there... 126.96.36.199 (talk) 02:36, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
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Please, let us be serious
I supressed this statement in the History section: While music in the north of Spain has a celtic influence dating from pre-Roman times, Is there anybody left still believing that commercial gimmick of Celtism? Anyway, congratulations to everybody for the great debulking work on this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 19:43, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
It's not a "commercial gimmick", look at the music and culture of Northern Spain, it's quite different then that of Andalusia.
Should it be mentioned that the Romani of Spain came down into Spain from Flemish lands?
The Romani of Spain were first recorded as a group of about 100 lead by Duke Andrew and went under a lie that they were from "Little Egypt". It is recorded they had with them around 40 horses. They are first recorded as travelling in the Nederlands in 1419ad. then into Belgium in 1420ad and back into the Netherlands in 1421ad. We then see the group still using the "Little Egypt" banner crossing the border of France into Spain where Don Johan & Duke Thomas of Little Egypt attained letters of protection from King Alfonso V of Aragon. In 1492 Spain united under one government which in 1499 ordered all Gypsies to stop travelling around and to settle into trades. We then find in the early 1500s possible reports of Gypsies being sent from Spain as musicians to perform to the King of Scotland and then were sent on into Scandinavia. In 1529 we find definite reports of a another group of dancers being sent from Spain to perform for King James V of Scotland and in 1540 the King grants them rights to live under their own laws and customs under Duke Faa of Little Egypt. Today we know the name that the Romani of Spain & Portugal use for themselves is "Kale" (Cale / Calo). The only other places where we can find Romani that also refer to themselves as Kale / Kaale is in the UK (Wales) and Scandinavia which seems no coincidence considering the historical records. The Romani of Spain are constantly known through history of Spain for their music. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tsigano (talk • contribs) 18:43, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jewish Influences?
Given Andalusia's geography and its history, it is probable there are Jewish influences. Musicologists and dance experts would also detect other eastern Med, north Aftrican, perhaps Persian and certainly Indian (via Romani) influences. If we follow this logic we could as well go back to the first jungle drums and along the way implicate half the world's music as an influence. Going into these second, and third degree influences takes the article into speculation. Editors should note that citations of newspapers and general magazine articles like this  are not considered reliable sources. Provocateur (talk) 10:45, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- Wikipedia does not specifically preference academic sources over newspapers, though it depends on the subject. However, I can live with that being taken out, because it's not the best written, most compelling article I've read...however, if we could find the "musicologists" that the newspaper author talks about, and provide sources from them, we'd have to include it. Heck, even if we found a newspaper account that quoted an expert, in that case we'd still have to accept it (unless you could provide a consensus of reliable sources rejecting that position). Qwyrxian (talk) 11:59, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- Newspaper articles have their place but not in something like this. The many influences in any music and dance are obscure and vast. It is amazing how often the Spanish foundations of this genre are overlooked - the seguidilla folk music and dance and the guitar. There was also an extremely experimental phase in flamenco's golden age, driven by professional musicians. And the whole flamenco thing going back to the fifteenth century is pure myth, flamenco's origins are modern. It's best just to leave it as Andalusian and Romani as these two categories cover all these others and they were the direct sources of flamenco. After all, it is a very distinctively Andalusian genre. Provocateur (talk) 00:40, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
The Spanish version of this entry appears to be an excellent model for framing this article's introduction. I see some arguments on the "talk" page which may (potentially) be somewhat resolved with the update. However, if updates are made, some existing information will need to be deleted. What is the process for doing a fairly major update of the introduction to create more of a parallel with the Spanish version? 184.108.40.206 (talk) 15:49, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
- That isn't a good idea. The introduction (which WP usually calls a "lead") should reflect the body of the article. Thus, we can't make a major change to the lead unless we first change the body. Additionally, we have to take care, because the rules/policies of the various language Wikipedias are not the same; for instance, English Wikipedia is usually stricter about what constitutes a reliable source than other language Wikipedias. Thus, a better approach is to just make revisions here, based on the information cited in the en.wiki article. You can make a major change directly, though you could also try discussing it here first if you think there will be objections. Qwyrxian (talk) 21:21, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
Ambiguity in Compás section
Can anyone explain to me why someone cared to divide the palos into three different Compás, soleá, seguiriya and bulería, and then created a numbered list where the soleá and bulería are under the same number, seguiriya on its own, and two completely different palos under the third?
And then, can anyone explain to me why, under each of the three categories, someone has pasted rhythms with the exact same beats and accents?
Harmony, Compas and Structure
These sub-categores under Music are very much lacking in solid references/ sources. For references, there is the book Analytical Studies in World Music, but it only has a chapter breaking down a Soleares. Other sources are defunct websites, Spanish websites (which themselves have no sources and are scant), a Mel Bay method book, and some obscure magazine articles. For sources we have El Cante Flamenco, but that deals with singing for the most part, not scales, modes, harmony, rhythm as mainly presented by guitar. Flamenco Guitar Innovation and the Circumscription of Tradition deals with the shift to neo-flamenco with DeLucia. Flamenco Guitar: History, Style, and Context has little on the categorization of scales/ modes and rhythms that different palos uses. The rest of the book sources are Spanish, but from the titles are books about cante. So, where did all this information come from here- particularly the scales/ modes and rhythms for each palos? Does anybody know of a book in English (or Spanish if none in English) that does what this Wikipedia article does- break down each palos to its scales/ modes, chords, and rhythms and structure? Any article or book that attempts this should itself have some history and evidence to back up its analysis, such as referenced recordings (Montoya?, or early accompanist Mel de Marchena?, or others). I have searched high and low and am having difficulty in finding such a resource. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 21:16, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- Let's see what a dedicated historian of Flamenco says about available records going back to the late 18th century:
- "...the theatre movement of sainetes (one-act plays) and tonadillas, popular song books and song sheets, customs, technical studies of dances, and toques, musical scores, newspapers, graphic documents in paintings and engravings...in continuous evolution together with rhythm, the poetic stanzas, and the ambiance". Ríos Ruiz Ayer y hoy del cante flamenco, Ediciones ISTMO, Tres Cantos (Madrid), 1997
- Furthermore, recent scholars like Rios cast doubt on the highly improbable story of the "hermetic period" of flamenco, where it was transmitted orally for centuries without ever being noticed. Flamenco is largely of nineteenth century vintage, was always performed by professionals for money but took its inspiration from the folk forms that existed in Andalucia, like the Sevillanas, the Fandango and the singing of the Romani. This is definitely not a "folk" tradition. Provocateur (talk) 22:07, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
- Out of context and incomplete, it is unclear what the quote refers to, means, or is intended to demonstrate; to me at least. I'd be interested to see the source stating it was always performed professionally. Origins in its current form in the 19th century, if that is correct, inspired from other folk forms; folk musics evolve, this isn't problematic.
- Britannica discusses "bastardization" in the 19th century and Lorca and de Falla's "timely attempt to prevent the further debasement of an authentic folk art". Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:43, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
- Golden age of flamenco from 1780? It was first recorded only six years earlier. The quotation from the highly respected historian of flamenco Rios Ruiz above, refers to the perfectly clear history of flamenco through the "hundreds of data" that are available to modern scholars that shows its beginnings in the 18th century. Lorca and de Falla were great artists in their own right but they were not flamenco artists nor were they noted historians and flamenco's commercialization was reality even before they were born, let alone when they were complaining about it. Their actual contribution to flamenco was to spread myths about flamenco's history. For instance they ignore the major contribution of Silverio Franconetti of the middle decades of the 19th (the golden period), who gave up tailoring and became the most famous flamenco performer of his day and the biggest owner of cafés cantante (singing cafes) where it was performed. I will not argue any more over whether or not it is "folk music", though this description is ridiculous; I thought "a genre of music and dance" to be uncontroversial given flamenco's high art pretensions and its professional performers. But this is the Wikipedia after all. Have a good new year. Provocateur (talk) 17:57, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
- Britannica discusses "bastardization" in the 19th century and Lorca and de Falla's "timely attempt to prevent the further debasement of an authentic folk art". Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:43, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
An example of an article full of empty guesses and theories on the origins of Flamenco but light on any good data and modern scholarship to back them -
Support from Spanish Wikipedia
There is a dearth in quality sources in English language on what flamenco actually is and its origins. I think this article should be rewritten following Spanish wikipedia. It is a complex topic and Spanish wiki should be starting point, otherwise it is highly confusing for the reader.Asilah1981 (talk) 13:53, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
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No early history of Flamenco
There is no history section in this article. I'd like to know more about pre-1765 flamenco, but know little about it. The harmonies occur at least from the C16 (e.g: Mudarra). Nick Michael (talk) 11:07, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
Nick Michael Nick, this is a complicated topic. But the roots of Flamenco are old in Andalusia, even if they were not known as "Flamenco" as such. Some of the modern day Flamenco "palos" are extremely old in origin (pre-Islamic) and some are quite recent (late 19th century). They are grouped together in what is known today as "Flamenco", an artificial concept in a way, which simply refers to the traditional music of Andalusia which has evolved (and continues to evolve) rapidly over the past two centuries, all of which are influenced by earlier traditional forms. How this can be explained in the article, I don't know. The history of Sevillanas for example, is largely post-1950s, yet it is extremely rich. In a way Flamenco is an exponentially growing artform like RnB or other such American musical styles. It is a living musical style, unlike much of European folk music which is effectively dead has been replaced by Anglo-American pop music. The only equivalent in Europe I would say is "Ottoman" pop music present in Turkey, the Balkans and the Middle East/North Africa. Gaditano23 (talk) 11:32, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for this Gaditano, quite useful: but you only whet my appetite for more information on the early history of the form! Of course I see that it would be difficult to explain in the article, as would the 'history' of any traditional music. I hear clear similarities to Arabic scales and harmonies, and I always imagined that the roots of Flamenco were in Muslim Spain; but you say that some 'palos' are even pre-Islamic. I suppose the early - and perhaps later - influences are largely unknown. I see that the article Music of Andalusia touches on the subject, and that is helpful. Do you think it would be useful to include in the article something of what you write above? Nick Michael (talk) 20:40, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- Nick Michael Not sure if I can source what I wrote above! Reg. your other questions, well the Islamic period was indeed long in south Spain (six to eight centuries) and of course any aspect of Andalusian culture cannot ignore that fact. But its wrong to assume a continuity or an introduction of the art form from abroad. There is no real link with music of the Maghreb or wider arabo-muslim world except in that it sounds vaguely oriental to Western ears. Flamenco developed progressively after Spain became a country and upon the "ethno-genesis" of the Andalusians, which coincided with the arrival of the gypsies from Europe and the adoption of the Spanish language and Catholic religion as main vehicle of culture and identity by a people who had belonged to the Islamic civilization for centuries. This ethno-genesis also practically coincided with the discovery of America, where Andalusia was the main point of contact and population exchange with the Spanish Empire. As you say, origins are obscure and influences probably too many to count. But looking further back: What are the origins of the Chacarrá? Seguiriya/Seguidilla? Of the Verdiales? of Fandango?(examples of Andalusian folklore on which Flamenco was built?) I'm not a musicologist but I imagine the common theme might be the Andalusian cadence as a starting point. Btw the role of gypsies should not be forgotten. The misconception is that "gypsy music" is at the origin of Flamenco. It is not, the music itself is Andalusian. However, Andalusian gypsies from the lower Guadalquivir valley (Seville, Jerez etc..) have played a preponderant role in its development/innovation - particularly during the late 19th century. Hope that helped a bit more!Gaditano23 (talk) 23:44, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- Fascinating Gaditano, and thank you for reminding me that it is wrong to assume a 'foreign' continuity or introduction: the same must apply to many art forms. Unlike languages, where external influences can easily be detected, musical evolution can hardly be documented. It seems analogous to dance movements, the origins of which are quite intangible. Many thanks for your wise and erudite observations. Nick Michael (talk) 09:30, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
I don't know if there's any documentation for this, but my impression was that flamenco got its name because the Romani in Andalusia claimed they were Flemish (I also heard or read that the Rom were called Gypsies because they sometimes claimed to be from Egypt). No mention of the Flanders story in the etymology section; should I then assume there's nothing to support it? Don G Taylor (talk) 17:24, 17 September 2017 (UTC)