Talk:Flatwoods monster

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Untitled[edit]

According to the CSICOP article, it wasn't the sheriff who said they saw an owl, it was two Air Force Investigators who said that. (3rd paragraph under The Creature section in the CSICOP article).

I've completely re-written this page and expanded all aspects of it. I've also restored the trivia item linking Amagon to the Flatwoods monster. Check out the picture half way down [[1]] page and compare it to the game screen shot. The two images are almost identical, right down to the position of the arms. The game is almost certainly a ripoff of the Flatwoods monster.

perfectblue 12:41, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Majora's Mask[edit]

Isn't the ghost/aliens in The Legend of Zelda Majora's Mask, based off the flat woods monster, baring striking features of the monster(glowing eyes, clawlike hands,etc)? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.229.47.92 (talkcontribs) 00:48, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

Maybe it is, maybe is isn't. But it's largely irrelevant. There is already one video game mentioned, which is EXACTLY like an artists rendering of the monster (not just a little like, it is an exact match), and we don't really need any more examples. perfectblue 09:24, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Im not sure the creatures from said game match this discription very well. They even include the red ball of light that is apperantly their ship. Not only do they have the glowing eyes and claw like hands but they seem to have the dark pleated skirt too and are around 8-10 feet tall Cillian flood (talk)

NEW APPARITION

I remember some that some years ago in Mexico a similar case was widely commented and it also was shown in serious TV news and newspaper. It happened near Monterrey, Mexico, when a police agent was attacked by the Flatwoods monster (aka "La bruja", the witch), he was interviewed on TV and there are also images and a video. There is more information in the spanish link of this article. Can someone put it on the English article? I could translate from Spanish but I do not know how to give to it Wiki format. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.159.4.69 (talk) 03:04, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Flatwoods monster newspaper1.png[edit]

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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:43, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

What was seen is something very similar to a creature I saw in a dream of mine which I believed to be the Devil. Vacreep3r88 (talk) 01:20, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Picture[edit]

Someone needs to upload a picture of the monster. I have tried already, but I don’t have much luck in uploading pictures that are under the wikipedia upload files rules. This article is practically asking for one. - ReddFighter (talk) 03:48, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Where's the picture? It was up not too long ago. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.243.126.7 (talk) 05:19, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

File:Flatwoods.png was deleted in March 2013 for being a copyright violation ("created in 1952 so not life+70") - presumably it was one of the contemporary press images used at the time. File:Flatwoods_monster.svg was added more recently, being a sketch by a Wikipedia editor, but it was removed by an IP who felt it was "not even close to how it looks", and I'd agree - this image is of a bulky figure with heavy arms wearing what looks like a pointed hood, where the contemporary sketches show it as slimmer creature with thin arms and a round "head" surrounded by a dark shape. --McGeddon (talk) 16:12, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Very Dubious Sourcing: Article Needs to be Rewritten[edit]

This article needs to be rewritten with reliable secondary sources. Right now it looks more like the transcript of some sensationalist television show than an entry on an entity in West Virginia folklore. :bloodofox: (talk) 05:53, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

Agreed on the TV style of the "Chronology" section - it needs reframing as a series of reported events, instead of flatly telling us that a dog ran ahead and that Lemon "revealed the creature". It's unclear who a lot of this should be attributed to - did Kathleen May tell the entire story? The sources seem as good as you're likely to get for this sort of article, though. Unless there were later interviews, it's just going to be from the original 1950s newspaper clippings. --McGeddon (talk) 23:40, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Ideally we'd get some commentary from folklorists here. I'll dig around and see what I can find as time permits. :bloodofox: (talk) 00:08, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

This article is atrociously inaccurate[edit]

On internet Archive, under recordings 8 and 9 on the page linked below are audio recordings of Gray Barker and Ivan T. Sanderson relating their first-hand investigations of this incident. The article bears no resemblance whatsoever to what witnesses describe! Someone with more patience than myself is needed to rewrite this page. Can we shove video games and pop culture aside for the briefest of moments in order to get our facts straight people?!

https://archive.org/details/HighStrangenessGuide — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:6582:8580:c00:cc0e:eb24:79b3:178b (talk) 21:45, October 27, 2017


Agree the article needs a rewrite, but not for the reasons you state. We should not be giving Barker and Sanderson's claims any credibility or WP:UNDUE weight. Per WP:FRINGE, they, and other sensational sources such as "The Cover-Up of the Flatwoods Monster Revealed", "Unexplained", and "Civilian Saucer Investigation" are not independent reliable sources of fact. WP:MAINSTREAM and all that. - LuckyLouie (talk) 02:18, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Nonsense. They were the only ones to actually go out there, interview every single witness multiple times and properly investigate. If you listen to the above sound archive before making snap judgements you'll find that they are giving the subject coverage which is vastly more impartial than the contemporary newspaper accounts which simply referred to the monster as "Frankenstein". Your assumption that their sober interviews should be regarded as "fringe claims" when they are quoting direct firsthand witnesses is logically flawed to say the least. To follow this line of reasoning to its natural conclusion would result in the deletion of the entire page!

For an example of how to do it correctly, have a look at a translation of the Japanese article on the Flatwoods Monster. It totally puts this one to shame. https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%95%E3%83%A9%E3%83%83%E3%83%88%E3%82%A6%E3%83%83%E3%82%BA%E3%83%BB%E3%83%A2%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B9%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:6582:8580:c00:cca3:936b:c62f:e6a2 (talk) 09:17, October 31, 2017

By reading a rather poor translation of the Japanese article, I am unable to understand what exactly it is you feel should be included in this article. But if you wish to have any meaningful discussion here, you need to sign your comments, review our policies on reliable sources and how the encyclopedia treats fringe subjects. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:17, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

May 2018[edit]

Did a long-needed cleanup of the article, removed non-WP:RS sources and copyedited the credulous descriptions to be more encyclopedic and less sensational. Added some of the material from the local tourism site and changed te section header to "local culture". I've left mention of Gray Barker in the text, since Nickell cites Barker's Fate magazine story as influencing the spread of the legend (so we are actually referencing Nickell, not Barker). Nickell also mentions the influence of Ivan T. Sanderson on the legend, but someone else can add that if needed. As mentioned here, the legend is apparently covered in various folklore journals. Those with access to them (I don't have any) may wish to expand the article with material gleaned from these sources. - LuckyLouie (talk) 16:37, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Sanderson clearly arrived on the nineteenth and did interviews, and his fringe view that it was "some sort of machine like a diving bell" made it into some pretty major newspapers on 25 September via the North American Newspaper Alliance.--tronvillain (talk) 17:20, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
And arguably the newspapers were mentioning UFOs before Sanderson and Barker ever showed up.--tronvillain (talk) 20:22, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
There should be mention that the story was picked up (maybe by AP or UPI) and publicized at the time. However I'd prefer not to cite 1952-era news articles for anything except the fact that the story made news, since WP:AGE MATTERS, and secondary sources with some objectivity are best for these types of subjects. - LuckyLouie (talk) 21:32, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
From WP:AGE MATTERS, With regard to historical events, older reports (closer to the event, but not too close such that they are prone to the errors of breaking news) tend to have the most detail, and are less likely to have errors introduced by repeated copying and summarizing. What the initial reports and descriptions were is relevant, which is almost entirely a 10-foot tall monster with "blood-red face and a green body that seemed to glow", the ace of spades thing, and a pleated metallic skirt. It's all consistent with being surprised by a barn owl in the dark after a meteor shower during a era where talk of UFOs was rampant. You might argue that the initial reports were "too close", but other than the interviews by Sanserson and Barker, they're most of what exists as far as I can tell. --tronvillain (talk) 21:40, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
There's some discussion of news reports being primary sources if they just report and not analyze. In that sense, it would feel a little WP:OR-ish to pick details from primary sources (1952 news articles) based on how they may conflict or agree with secondary analysis (such as from Nickell). But I haven't been able to access any of the original news stories, so the question may be moot. - LuckyLouie (talk) 23:15, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
Wait, I just saw this. It's a PDF folder download from Braxtonwv.org containing the original news stories. - LuckyLouie (talk) 00:23, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Yes, I saw that this afternoon. Neat. -- tronvillain (talk) 02:54, 11 May 2018 (UTC)