Talk:Fluid and crystallized intelligence

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Earliest comments[edit]

needs work

I wikified it a bit, but does this concept really need its own article? It is a concept seemingly only put up by one psychologist. I created a page for him. Should it be merged into his page? - Taxman 18:47, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

wikkified a bit and cleaned up some grammar...don't know how good of a job i did...but i tried.--Cypocryphy 23:44, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Taxman: This is not an isolated concept dreamed up by a single individual... this is a fundamental distinction regognized widely by psychologists and others who study human abilities.--Amead 3:45, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)

The concept of fluid intelligence seems to be analogous to the role of white matter in the brain. Both white matter and fluid intelligence establish meaning through connections for the grey matter or crystallized intelligence. However, this is inconsistent with how development of these types of intelligence proceeds in this article. These developmental patterns should be reversed. The following is from wikipedia'a article on white matter. “Unlike grey matter, which peaks in development in a persons twenties, the white matter continues to develop and peaks in late middle age.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.178.202.187 (talk) 19:26, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

As for the above comment: that's quite a crazy opinion you have there. I'd suggest you don't try to edit in anything about fluid intelligence being entirely the function of white matter (which, in case you don't know, is not a separate processing substrate in the brain, but is just the means by which neurons communicate over distance). As for what I'm about to add (or delete): the third paragraph in the last section is out of place and seems just to have been added because someone wrote/read that particular paper. The point it makes adds nothing to the article that is not already there, despite what the paragraph begins by saying.163.1.143.161 (talk) 20:30, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


Fluid intelligence deserves good attention, as it's dynamic nature, violates the, long upheld postulate (and rather convenient one, at that), of intellectual constancy, and it has come to violate the assumption of inherent intelligence. As it is evidence of the existence of higher processing skills, it debunks the view that complex cognitive skills are solely related to STM and LTM recall speed (and suggests that the problems on conventional IQ tests are, in fact, 'simple' and not complex). Essentially, it is evidence of significant, and broad inter-personal differences in our ability to manipulate information in short-term memory, while simultaneously accessing relevant information stored in long term memory. Genetic and environmentally related differences, in the rates of development and specific functionings of the human pre-frontal cortex, need to be used as a basis for an alternative theory of intelligence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.1.114.97 (talk) 22:02, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Intelligence Citations Bibliography for Articles Related to IQ Testing[edit]

I have posted a bibliography of Intelligence Citations for the use of all Wikipedians who have occasion to edit articles related to human intelligence and related issues. I happen to have circulating access to a huge academic research library at a university with an active research program in issues related to this topic (and to another library that is one of the ten largest public library systems in the United States) and have been researching these issues since 1989. You are welcome to use these citations for your own research and to suggest new sources to me by comments on that page. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 17:35, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Fluid versus crystallized[edit]

Math, in the example with the girl, is said to be crystal. I would assume that math, as a raw problem-solving method, would be fluid, or is it somewhere in-between?--John Bessa (talk) 19:18, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

There are contextual issues to deal with in answering this question. Check the sources, but in general "crystallized intelligence" is taken to be accumulated knowledge from learning processes, and "fluid intelligence" to on-the-spot problem-solving ability for dealing with unfamiliar problems that take a person by surprise. A mathematics problem could tap either kind of intelligence. (Mathematicians would tend to distinguish "problems" from "exercises," and I think you can guess which goes with which kind of intelligence.) But this Wikipedia article should reflect, based on the sources, that not everyone thinks this is a clear, cut-and-dried distinction. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 20:31, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
It wouldn't be "wiki" without at least a little confusion. Perhaps the answer is anthropological: what kind of math to isolated Amazon tribes-children do as part of self-actualization. That would be fluid.--John Bessa (talk) 01:00, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

There seems to be disagreement concerning the presence of fluid intelligence deficits in Autism Spectrum Disorders. The references currently provided make claims of enhanced or superior performance (the articles are freely available online). While there may well also be evidence of deficits, other sources should be provided to substantiate this claim. If there is a claim that the work currently cited does suggest deficits, I would suggest that this claim be substantiated on this page, in order to prevent further disagreement. --Kachen (talk) 21:30, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

From the Hayashi et al. (2007) article cited in the Wikipedia article:
  • "Some studies have indicated that children with Asperger’s disorder have high performances on the Vocabulary and Comprehension verbal subtests of the WISC, while their performances on nonverbal subtests, including Block Design and Object Assembly, are impaired (Ehlers et al.,1997)." [Note: Block Design is a measure of fluid reasoning; it is a component of the Wechsler Perceptual REASONING Index].
  • "autistics who showed poor fluid reasoning (Blair, 2006; Pennington & Ozonoff, 1996) and poor performance on the tests of high-level integration or abstraction (Courchesne & Pierce, 2005; Just, Cherkassky, Keller, & Minshew, 2004)." (italics added)
Hayashi just happens to be an article cited in the Wikipedia article. There are other studies with conflicting results. The discrepancies probably are related to the specific ways fluid reasoning is measured. But the bottom line is that there is research supporting deficits in fluid reasoning in autistic spectrum, and there are studies supporting superiority in fluid reasoning. I never objected to adding the comments about superior fluid intelligence. I did object to removing the comments about deficits. Some of the anons editing here apparently just read the titles and summaries. The truth is in the details. Cresix (talk) 01:20, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Most of the other anons were me (sorry for that; I will post as a registered user from now on). I read the full articles (all three, and more), and did not miss those passages. I am also familiar with citation standards (I have published peer-reviewed articles). If you stand by the studies cited in Hayashi et al. (and have read them), those studies should be cited in the main article - the currently cited studies explicitly argue against the claim that fluid reasoning is impaired, and they are not review articles (it is therefore inappropriate to cite them in support of claims that they argue *against*). If you are familiar with the autism literature, you will also know that Block Design is *very* frequently cited as a test that autistics perform disproportionately well on (compared to other Wechsler subtests); this is easily confirmed by doing a PubMed search (though I'll provide numerous citations if requested). I'll wait for a response from you before adding the need for citations back to the article. --Kachen (talk) 03:36, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
It would be appropriate to not make false accusations about accusations, especially when you are editing both as a registered user and anonymously (albeit by accident if you're being honest). Also be advised that WP:3RR applies regardless of how many accounts you use to edit in a 24 hour period. It is acceptable to add additional studies (and yes I have read them; and yes I am quite familiar with the literature on PDD as well as the factoral structure of cognitive abilities), but it is not necessary. The statement "Deficits in fluid intelligence are found on some measures in individuals with Autism spectrum disorders, including Asperger syndrome" is sourced by Hayashi. Wikipedia does not require multiple citations for a statement. Please don't create your own policies. Please do not add a "citation needed" tag for a statement that has a proper citation. Believe it not, it is possible for a journal article to point out conflicting findings; you are simply wrong that "it is therefore inappropriate to cite them"; please link a policy to support that assertion, or again stop making up your own policies. I don't know how long you've been hanging around Wikipedia, but in case you don't know, let me clue you in from someone who has both the advanced degrees as well as years of experience editing here. You're not writing a dissertation here. You editing on the encyclopedia that anyone can edit. Your credentials, or my credentials, don't mean jack-squat here. What does matter here are the policies that Wikipedia has developed over a number of years. And the rules you learn at university don't necessarily apply here. So spend some time reading policies before you declare that "it is therefore inappropriate to cite" a source. That may work in the ivory tower (and trust me, I've spent lots of time there), but it doesn't work on Wikipedia. One source (and it doesn't have to be a review article) is sufficient. I could add more sources -- plenty more -- but it is not necessary just because you say so or your dissertation committee says so, and I have more important things to do. Cresix (talk) 03:48, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Re: citation, my position would be that the following would apply here - "You need to cite a source that directly supports the statement" (Referencing for beginners); "It is also important, however, for our articles to clearly indicate the person who...first performed an experiment, or was otherwise responsible for the idea being discussed. The process of giving credit to the original discoverer will be called attribution here." (Scientific citation guidelines); "Primary sources should be used when discussing a particular result or recent research directions." (Identifying reliable sources (natural sciences)); distinction between primary & secondary sources in medicine (Identifying reliable sources (medicine)); "Unlike in the humanities, scientific and medical peer reviewed sources are not generally considered secondary unless they are a review or a meta-analysis." (Secondary sources).
If you have read, and stand by studies arguing *for* impairment in fluid reasoning, then it would be appropriate to cite *those studies* (and I'm quite aware that journal articles can present conflicting findings, for Christ's sake, but brief mention in a non-review article of past conflicting findings by *others* [of uncertain quality, unless you've read through the studies yourself] does not make for an adequate source for a scientific claim). I'm not asking for the comments about deficits to be removed - I'm asking that they be sourced if they are included (per typical guidelines in cognitive science/medicine). --Kachen (talk) 04:56, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
For example: Blair (2006) does not present any relevant data. The little mention it makes of autism is primarily a reference to Pennington & Ozonoff (1996) (which may be an appropriate source to cite; I'll look at it more closely and possibly add it myself). Courchesne & Pierce (2005) is a neuroimaging (inc. postmortem) study - there are no direct measures of any type of reasoning ability involved, so it's likely inappropriate. Just, Cherkassky, Keller, & Minshew (2004) is a neuroimaging study involving a sentence comprehension task (it's somewhat questionable how directly this measures fluid reasoning, and how generalizable the findings are, but I'll look more closely at this, as well). --Kachen (talk) 05:40, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
This should be the last of my notes on this. Something that may be worth mentioning is that the segment of the article in question was initially added, by someone other than me, with only mention of *enhanced* performance (with admittedly very clunky wording) - see here. This stayed up for some time, then was 'corrected' by someone to state that the cited work showed *deficits* (it should be plainly clear that the person who 'corrected' it did not look at the work in question). My edit was a more clearly worded reversion to the original, since this is the only claim being made in the work actually cited (reviewing claims previously made by others does not amount to making that same claim). --Kachen (talk) 07:18, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

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  • "scientific and medical peer reviewed sources are not generally considered secondary unless they are a review or a meta-analysis": Which you have not provided for your claims.
  • "for Christ's sake": Christ has nothing to do with this article.
  • "it would be appropriate to cite *those studies*": Appropriate, but not required.

As always, please conform to Wikipedia's policies rather than you own. This should be the last of my notes on this. Cresix (talk) 14:52, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Per same citation guidelines, primary sources are considered acceptable in absence of appropriate secondary sources (this is stated elsewhere in the Wikipedia article citation guidelines/articles above). I was objecting to the use of the currently cited work as support for deficit-related claums (it falls into neither primary nor secondary source categories for those purposes). I sourced Wikipedia policies in this. If you agree it's appropriate, I will add those sources myself at a later point (I would like to take a more careful look through them first). --Kachen (talk) 16:16, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
  • "I sourced Wikipedia policies in this.": As did I.
  • "I will add those sources myself at a later point.": As I have said repeatedly, additional sources are acceptable but not required. Add all the sources you wish, but don't change the meaning of the text in the article. The text is fine as it is; adding sources is up to you. Cresix (talk) 16:29, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Journal of Intelligence — Open Access Journal[edit]

Journal of Intelligence — Open Access Journal is a new, open-access, "peer-reviewed scientific journal that publishes original empirical and theoretical articles, state-of-the-art articles and critical reviews, case studies, original short notes, commentaries" intended to be "an open access journal that moves forward the study of human intelligence: the basis and development of intelligence, its nature in terms of structure and processes, and its correlates and consequences, also including the measurement and modeling of intelligence." The content of the first issue is posted, and includes interesting review articles, one by Earl Hunt and Susanne M. Jaeggi and one by Wendy Johnson. The editorial board[1] of this new journal should be able to draw in a steady stream of good article submissions. It looks like the journal aims to continue to publish review articles of the kind that would meet Wikipedia guidelines for articles on medical topics, an appropriate source guideline to apply to Wikipedia articles about intelligence. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 21:12, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

The Journal of Intelligence — Open Access Journal website has just been updated with the new articles for the latest edition of the journal, by eminent scholars on human intelligence. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 21:33, 16 February 2014 (UTC)


Horn, the"primary student" of Cattell[edit]

What is meant by "John L. Horn, the primary student of Raymond Cattell." The bio of Cattell says he was provided with 2 postdocs and several graduate research assistants at U of Illinois in 1945 and retired circa 1973, so if he maintained a 6 person lab he might have had dozens of such research workers, as well as countless students in classes and advisees. What would make Horn his primary student? A reliable source is needed or the word "primary" should be removed. Edison (talk) 21:18, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Fixed. If anyone has a citation that Horn was Cattell's primary student, he or she can change it back and add the citation. I knew Cattell and Horn distantly and I would describe Horn as perhaps Cattell's most successful student but I don't even know how one student becomes the "primary student" of a professor/researcher. 24.15.88.9 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 22:21, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Crystallized form of fluid intelligence?[edit]

From the introduction: "The terms are somewhat misleading because one is not a "crystallized" form of the other. Rather, they are believed to be separate neural and mental systems." But then right after: "It is the product of educational and cultural experience in interaction with fluid intelligence. Fluid and crystallized intelligence are thus correlated with each other." This looks contradictory to me, and is very confusing. Perhaps it makes sense technically, but this is in the introduction to the article. The second quote makes perfect sense to me and fits well with the rest of the text, but the first quote seems really out of place. (Since crystallized intelligence clearly seems to stem largely from fluid intelligence, why emphasize that they are separate systems?) --Ornilnas (talk) 00:07, 6 October 2016 (UTC)