Talk:Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution

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Good article Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Change capitalization[edit]

Someone needs to change the capitalization of the word 'State' to the lowercase (state) in the text of the amendment.

So from :

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may, by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article

To:

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several states according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each state, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a state, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such state, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such state.

Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may, by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any state shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.97.87.72 (talk) 21:22, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Apparently, they are capitalized in the actual document, so we should not change it. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 00:22, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Obergefell v. Hodges[edit]

Based on this decision should we include a new section or should we simply add material to the Due Process and Equal Protection sections? SMP0328. (talk) 14:43, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Seems to me it's more of a substantive due process decision as it employed none of the tiers of review one finds in EP cases. -- Foofighter20x (talk) 16:18, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
It does refer to the "fundamental right to marry" throughout the opinion, but it bases that on both clauses. I don't think we could justify referring only to the substantive due process material. SMP0328. (talk) 16:57, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
To me, it seems more that he used the same rationale as Lawrence, and then slapped on EP for good measure without really explaining why it was necessary. Even if it relies on both, the SDP rationale is doing all the heavy lift work. -- Foofighter20x (talk) 17:15, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
^ I'm hearing WP:SYNTH here. --Izno (talk) 17:26, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Strange. I'd expect you'd be seeing it, not hearing it. Unless you work for the NSA and are listening in, or are just talking to yourself... :p :) -- Foofighter20x (talk) 17:35, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
I can't confirm whether I work for the NSA. --Izno (talk) 18:13, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
But, synth you brought it up... :p "It's notable that the due process analysis predominated and drove the equal protection analysis." -- Foofighter20x (talk) 17:38, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
That doesn't look like a WP:RS. --Izno (talk) 18:13, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
(a) She's a law professor. Go check her About Me.
(b) I wasn't aware that I needed a reliable source to make a point on a talk page. You presume too much in that I was offering it as a source cite for the article when I merely offered it as a source to demonstrate that capable authorities have reached conclusions similar to my own, and that we can likely expect more to do so. -- Foofighter20x (talk) 18:22, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps we can use this article. SMP0328. (talk) 20:02, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Another blog, though it might be reliable. The about page does not indicate whether they are fact checking each other, whether each article is that own authors POV, etc. --Izno (talk) 20:27, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
SCOTUSblog is a reliable source. Blogs are not per se unreliable. Wikipolicy calls them "questionable". SCOTUSblog is cited in many articles in and out of Wikipedia. The external link I have provided is to an article that is a description of the decision. It is not an opinion article. It should be considered as reliable as would an article from the news media. SMP0328. (talk) 20:51, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
The relevant policy in that case is the following quotation: Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. Exercise caution when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else will probably have done so. I'm simply exercising caution since I don't know whether their expert work has been republished. ;) --Izno (talk) 20:56, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
  1. I did check the about page, which fails one of the requirements for RS (in that she isn't fact checked given that it's her blog, though I'm sure she's authoritative on the subject).
  2. I was sure opinion about the critical elements of the opinion are published, but when someone is grabbing examples it is easier now to point out sourceability. It might have been the case you did mean that to be used, so I explicitly wanted to deny that particular source as acceptable. --Izno (talk) 20:27, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Who is "she"? SCOTUSblog is not owned by a woman and the article was written by a man. SMP0328. (talk) 21:25, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Please review the indentations--this response regards the Althouse blog article. --Izno (talk) 21:30, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
In response to the original question, I think it's best that it be mentioned in both the Due Process Clause section and the Equal Protection Clause section. No need to be repetitive, but the reasoning under each clause can be discussed under each section. That's likely how we'd handle it if there were a case that held something was unconstitutional under two parts of the constitution that had their own separate Wikipedia articles. –Prototime (talk · contribs) 01:26, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

I would suggest changing the wording of the first paragraph to put Obergefell v. Hodges alongside Roe v. Wade and Bush v. Gore as one of the landmark cases for which the Fourteenth Amendment formed the basis, rather than mentioning Obergefell v. Hodges separately from those other cases. The first paragraph currently ends with the following sentences:

... The Fourteenth Amendment, particularly its first section, is one of the most litigated parts of the Constitution, forming the basis for landmark decisions such as Roe v. Wade (1973), regarding abortion, and Bush v. Gore (2000), regarding the 2000 presidential election. The amendment limits the actions of all state and local officials, including those acting on behalf of such an official. In Obergefell v. Hodges (2015), the amendment was used to strike down same-sex marriage bans throughout the United States.

I suggest the following:

... The Fourteenth Amendment, particularly its first section, is one of the most litigated parts of the Constitution, forming the basis for landmark decisions such as Roe v. Wade (1973), regarding abortion; Bush v. Gore (2000), regarding the 2000 presidential election; and Obergefell v. Hodges (2015), regarding same-sex marriage. The amendment limits the actions of all state and local officials, including those acting on behalf of such an official.

-- Mmorearty (talk) 14:25, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Already done. :) -Jason A. Quest (talk) 12:58, 29 June 2015 (UTC)