Talk:Gödel's incompleteness theorems

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Please place discussions on the underlying mathematical issues on the Arguments page. Non-editorial comments on this talk page may be removed by other editors.


In the Note, it is asserted that the use "here" of "true" is disquotational. First, the link fails to provide any clear insight about wtf the editor is attempting to say. Second, my Shorter Oxford English dictionary has no entry for that word. Speak English, please! Third, the link is to the Redundancy Theory and no longer to Disquotationalism. Fourth, what does "here" mean? Does it mean the editor will on a minute by minute basis check that any future change in this article will comply with his (its gotta be a guy, I think) demands on how "true" must be used in all cases? Or does it mean "in this section"? paragraph? moment? Fifth, How does this "note" contribute to this article? It doesn't as far as I can see. Sixth, it would be nice for the various types of "truth" to be distinguished...I don't think its possible to have only one kind of "true" when discussing a theory of true statements - am I wrong? (There is true, meta-true, meta-meta-true, etc.). My general comment (and based on the arguments page, this is going to be lost on the fan-boys here) is that if a topic is presented in needlessly obfuscatory language, then most of its utility is lost. And this article is clearly needlessly obfuscatory. I suggest the editors, prior to starting their editing session, look in the mirror and repeat "Oh, what a clever, intelligent, witty boy I am!" until its out of their system. Then try to write clearly for the audience that Wikipedia is intended for. Like, by always distinguishing statements (propositions) IN a system from statements ABOUT a system and clearly indicating when a statement is one, the other, or both. Oh, what a smart boy I am! (talk) 22:31, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Just taking one point: You say "I don't think its possible to have only one kind of "true" when discussing a theory of true statements - am I wrong? (There is true, meta-true, meta-meta-true, etc.)".
Answer: Yes, you are wrong. Hope this helps. --Trovatore (talk) 18:09, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Severely underreferenced[edit]

Unfreakingbelievable! Such a fundemental concept with footnotes close to none. Am I supposed to believe every utterance of an anonymous Wikipedian At Large? - üser:Altenmann >t 15:16, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

I see what happened here. You came to this article thinking that sourcing is always done with footnotes. That is not so. This article uses Harvard-style parenthetical referencing. Look for parentheses with a name and a date, like this: (Goodauthor, 2027). --Trovatore (talk) 19:02, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Don't patronize me and show me Harvard, e.g., in section "Background". If are you telling me that "(simply)" is a Harvard-style ref, then it is malformed (year missing). - üser:Altenmann >t 03:05, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
OK, look, you made a mistake in not noticing it was Harvard. Admit that and quit asking for "footnotes" or complaining about "patronizing".
That said, looking over it, there aren't very many Harvard refs either, and that probably does need to change. But with more Harvard refs.
Some of them are probably malformed, but they're there. Search for "(Hellman 1981, p. 451–468)" for example. --Trovatore (talk) 03:33, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
My mistake was my insufficient English language discrimination. I meant no say "citations close to none". Admit that the article is severely underreferenced and quit nitpicking on technicalities. - üser:Altenmann >t 15:12, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

In any case, there is no lack of experts who have edited this article, or who have this article on their watchlist. I see Trovatore and David Eppstein in the recent edit history, who both have PhDs in mathematics; Wvbailey has done a lot of reading on the subject and knows quite a bit; and if you count Carl Hewitt through his sockpuppets that is another. I have some experience with the incompleteness theorems, as well. As always, my advice for those who want to see more sources is to add them – just adding templates will not lead to the outcome you are looking for, based on experience with many articles on Wikipedia. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:06, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

One correction: I have a BS in mathematics but my PhD is in CS. —David Eppstein (talk) 04:14, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

May be you have PhD but it seems you cannot read plain English. The template says "This article needs attention from an expert in mathematics". And it is lack of attention to the state of the article I am complaining about. Please don't delete the template until the explained issue is resolved, i.e, until experts in maths take seriously the wikipedia rule about references. CBM: your advice to add them myself is ridiculous. How in freaking hell I can add them if I am not familiar with the subject? This is not a pokemon or pornstar article, it is MATHEMATICS, for God's sake! So, either you start adding references, or I start deleting original exegesis. - üser:Altenmann >t 14:56, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

You should read Wikipedia:Scientific citation guidelines as well, if you are interested in the Wikipedia policies that apply. Remember that there is no rule that requires a citation for each sentence. There are some unreferened sections, which do need some improvement, but remember WP:DEADLINE. I also want to warn you about the three revert rule, which you are in danger of violating. — Carl (CBM · talk) 16:49, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
I have no problems with uncontroversial knowledge. Fact is, I have issues with the text of the article. I am not going to read 15 books listed at the bottom to verify the article. I need citations in situ. - üser:Altenmann >t 02:37, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
In regard the "expert" tag; there is a potential reason for inclusion, as an expert in whatever field Hewitt is expert in might have a different take on the article. We do not have agreement as to whether the theorems are in that field, so I'm not sure consensus could be reached for inclusion. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:22, 2 September 2015 (UTC)