# Talk:Game

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## Huizinga

Huizinga/s definition : a game is the creation of a secondary world, by two or more people, through the acceptance of a set of conventions. Playing is acting in this secondary world according to these conventions, that become rules. Winning is comparing the actions of the participants to the ideal action as defined by these conventions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.113.55.165 (talk) 14:23, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

## Caillois definition

I'm not no bonde on wiki En, so I can't make correction myself, so if someone see this, the first point in Caillois definition isn't Fun but Free (activity must be freely chosen). Sorry for my english, I'm french.--216.252.67.30 (talk) 04:01, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

## Chinese Numbers?

I was rooting through the list of types of [nQ|games] and I was wondering if someone could help me in defining a particular game and what category it would fall under. The game is called chinese numbers and in the game you have one person running the game and undefined number of people playing. The person running the game places several objects togather in what looks like a predetermined way (in reality any way they want, anything will work) they than ask the group what number this is. The players will look at the object and try to figure out what number it is. The number is actually irrevelant of the object and is determined by the number of words the leader uses when he asks what number it is. An example.

Question:-What number is this?- Answer: 4 Question:-Which number is this on the table?- Answer: 7

The goal is to figure it out, and then watch your friends be tormented that they dont know the answer. If anyone could help me figure out what category this falls under it would be great, so I can learn more about other games like this and help expand it. Thanks. --Beefybot 21:45, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

### Riddle

I'd say that qualifies as a riddle or a puzzle. Junuxx (talk) 13:30, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Have you looked into Pub or Drinking or Logic games ? Salisbury-99 (talk) 08:30, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

## Dice Games

aren't those missing from the article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.228.235.236 (talk) 15:12, 27 January 2007 (UTC).

These games are absolutely based on luck Aditya11817w (talk) 03:34, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

## Problem with language games and Wittgenstein reference?

I think the reference to Wittgenstein's language games is absolutely appropriate. Why is this considered to stray from the topic of rules? He gives a very interesting and influential philosophical interpretation of game rules as the basis for all linguistic practice.--Agnaramasi 23:44, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

The piece includes: "He subsequently argued that the concept "game" could not be contained by any single definition, but that games must be looked at as a series of definitions that share a "family resemblance" to one another."

In the first place LW did not hold that concepts were "contained in" definitions. This language suggests a metaphysics nowhere present in LW's body of work.

In the second place it was not part of LW's approach to tell us how things "must be looked at." Rather he suggested that we (in this sort of context) look at the ways in which words are actually and usefully applied.

Finally, nowhere did Wittgenstein argue nor in any way suggest that games: "be looked at as a series of definitions" that share a family resemblance. I hope this was just careless composition.

Chess is not a series of definitions, nor is baseball, nor is naughts and crosses, nor is Grand Theft Auto. There is no evidence that Wittgenstein was confused about this.

Therefore... `{{editsemiprotected}}` Please change:

"He subsequently argued that the concept "game" could not be contained by any single definition, but that games must be looked at as a series of definitions that share a "family resemblance" to one another,"

... to:

"Wittgenstein pointed out that we comfortably and usefully apply the term "game" to a range of quite disparate human activities which nevertheless bear to one another what we might call family resemblances."

Done Welcome and thanks. I changed your wording slightly to be more encyclopedic and to avoid the implication of correctness 'pointed out' carries. If 'concluded' is inaccurate, please suggest another verb which also makes it clear that this is his view. Celestra (talk) 21:44, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

## Some remarks

There were some things in this article I couldn't really agree on.

First of all, I doubt tic-tac-toe is a game of strategy. I even doubt it is a game. Doesn't one of the definitions require an uncertain outcome? To me and to any person with some logical skill whatsoever, tic-tac-toe is more like a performance of a sequence of moves, very short and always the same.

19:04, 6 April 2010 (UTC)Wikiwikinom (talk) Tic-tac-toe is a game from which children derive hours of amusement.

The sentence above is intelligible to any speaker of English. That is to say that, in it, familiar words are being used in familiar ways. I suggest it would be considered to present a true proposition by anyone familiar with the lexical sense and common usage of the word game, as long as they were also familiar with children.

I suggest that you are presenting a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persuasive_definition of "game" which narrows the scope of the term to a range which excludes much which common usage and prevelant lexical definitions include.

19:04, 6 April 2010 (UTC)19:04, 6 April 2010 (UTC)19:04, 6 April 2010 (UTC)19:04, 6 April 2010 (UTC)Wikiwikinom (talk) 19:04, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

On the other hand, I don't think Paper, Rock and Scissors is just a chance game. Maybe not at all. There is no chance element like a die or scrambled cards. Of course you don't know for sure what your opponent is going to do, but that applies to chess too, and that's definitely not a game of chance. To me, PR&S is about getting to know your opponents preferences, predicting his or her choice by facial expression and outcome of previous rounds and the like.

The article states that "the concept of fandom began with sports fans". How can we be so sure? Don't the followers of ancient prophets, gods, famous entertainers or generals qualify as fans?

And finally, I don't quite understand from the definitions, what exactly is the difference between a game and living normal, conformist, everyday life?

Junuxx (talk) 14:04, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Tic-Tac-Toe is a game taught to children. It is an excellent early step in showing how some games (and life) cannot be won. It is also a useful stage in showing how changing the rules -eg to three pegs only which can move - makes it a new game (called 3 mans morris).

I agree that PRS is not a game of chance.

Fandom is of course equal to any charismatic crowd but the word 'fan' ?began with US sports. Salisbury-99 (talk) 08:28, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

## Tabletop games

The RPG section should probably be generalized. It's not clear to me why CRPGs deserve special attention here over (say) FPS games. It would, however, make sense to include a section for tabletop and other natural language (PBEM, etc) games, including PnP RPGs, nomic, and Exquisite Corpse. ruinia (talk) 18:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

## Citation on middle-aged women as gamers

As in, I have one. Or a few, really. But I can't edit this article? :( boo. Here's what I'd link to -- sort of a wiki-clearinghouse page from the International Game Developers Association: http://www.igda.org/wiki/Casual_Games_SIG/Whitepaper/Market_Overview . I figure either that page can be cited, or the whitepapers it cites could be cited. Gus andrews (talk) 03:07, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

## Categories - Slippage between articles

The number of sites about games generally, categories of games and specific games is very high. Game is the top article, below which come Tabletop game thence Board games and onwards come many sub-categories and articles.

There is unhelpful slippage between articles. For example Game details some 12 types of game as follows (at Sept 2008) :-

Sports (with Lawn games as a sub-section);

Table games with Board games, Card games, Dice games, Miniature games, Paper and pencil games, and roleplaying games as sub-sections;

Note 1 There is a recent casino-based intervention that Table games are a variant of casino games as opposed to 'slots'.

Note 2 Pencil and paper games do not appear to be table games according to the definition used for tabel games. Dice games do not necessarily need a table. Video games with Arcade, Computer, Console, Hand-held, Mobile and Online sub-sections.

However, Game links to 'List of types of games' which divides into Sports, Table games, Video Games and Others in a significantly different arrangement than in the header article.

The sub-group 'Others' is an amalgam of items. Wargames surely should be with miniatures and role-playing. There are others which, provided they use a board on a table, come within the sub-section of board-games called 'abstract' - - - - - -

Furthermore, List of basic game topics under 'Types of games' has yet another different arrangement. It also notes 'for a more comprehensive list' see Game Classification'.

- - - - - - - - -

Categories used by popular game sites such as BoardGameGeek should be considered if any effort is made to regularise these categories. It may be that a multi-layer categorisation should be considered.

Thus "two player only games, three-player only; two or more players;" and so on might be one such layering.

The equipment requirements could be another with board, computer, ball, dice, domino, string etc being a second.

Posted also to Discussion page on List of types of games & List of basic game topics Salisbury-99 (talk) 08:20, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

## Mahjong not a domino game

The typical western domino is double ended and thus unlike a mahjong tile. Mahjong merely has a tile which is hard, solid and sometimes made of bone (I refrain from the obvious joke). In play and style, Mahjong is a card game correctly described as being 'rummy'-like. If there is consensus on this change? Salisbury-99 (talk) 14:11, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

It's rummy-like, but I think the consensus here is to call it a tile-based game, rather than card game. Percy Snoodle (talk) 19:00, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Dominoes are defined as double-ended pieces with a dividing line. I see no resemblance to a Mahjongg tile and therefore, as yet, no debate as to consensus. Salisbury-99 (talk) 10:19, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
I think you misunderstood. Dominoes is a tile-based game. Not all tile-based games are domino games. Mahjongg is a tile-based game. Mahjongg is not a domino game. What's to debate? Percy Snoodle (talk) 10:21, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
I agree. Both are tile-based games. --Orrelly Man (talk) 10:04, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Mahjong [ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.53.108.82 (talk) 16:14, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

The main article, as it now stands, begins:

A game is a structured activity, usually undertaken for enjoyment and sometimes used as an educational tool. Games are distinct from work, which is usually carried out for remuneration, and from art, which is more concerned with the expression of ideas.

From this, it would seem that ballroom dancing is a "game". 76.208.248.98 (talk) 06:10, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

The next sentence is "However, the distinction is not clear-cut, and many games are also considered to be..." - the whole lead gives a rough definition. There's no need to try to make the opening sentence 100% watertight in isolation. --McGeddon (talk) 09:10, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

## Definition

I don't have access to the main page, and I was wondering if anyone out there could add the definition of a game from Jesse Schell's of The Art of Game Design: A Book of Lenses. "A game is a problem-solving activity approached with a playful attitude." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.219.190.87 (talk) 16:25, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

## Art: Expression of ideas?

I can't edit the main "Game" page for some reason, but the first line offers a naive definition of "art", which is contradicted on the very page that the word"art" links to. Anyone up for coming up with a better first sentence/paragraph? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.52.129.253 (talk) 01:28, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

You are welcome to suggest improvements here. rʨanaɢ (talk) 01:42, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Rjanag - sorry, didn't realize contributions to the talk page were meant to be appended to the bottom! Anyway, the definition of art on the general "art" page for wikipedia claims "Art is the process or product of deliberately arranging elements in a way to affect the senses or emotions". Here's part of the first sentence on the "game" page: "art, which is more concerned with the expression of ideas".

Focusing on emotions or senses as opposed to "ideas" is a more inclusive definition that allows us to include abstract art, dance and music (and maybe even games, although lets not open that can of worms right now). Anyway, it might seem like a subtle difference but it happens to be something that (video) game community is struggling with right now, which is why I bothered to write this! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.52.129.253 (talk) 01:48, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

## Edit request from Dawitwiki, 17 November 2010

{{edit semi-protected}} I don't think the first item for a definition of a game should be Ludwig Wittgenstein's "use" of the word "game". Wittgenstein's use of a game should rather be discussed as an EXCEPTION to a definition of a game. Wittgenstein's use of the word "game" is not to show that "game", as we know it, is indefinable. He does NOT offer a definition of the word "game" nor does he intend to define it. It will rather be absurd and oxymoronic to cite him first under "Definition". My suggestion is that you remove his name from this entry unless of course you are using him to explain "family resemblances" and the problem of defining things, including "games", in GENERAL. Dawitwiki (talk) 02:00, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Not done: Not a valid reason for deletion. If you have specific suggestions on how to modify or add the text so that it better represents Wittgenstein please add them here. Thanks. -Atmoz (talk) 14:04, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

## animals and games?

Many animals engage in activities that might be considered 'games' with each other or toys, especially in their younger age. Should it be mentioned in a article? 95.58.139.97 (talk) 14:27, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

If it is notable enough to be supported by reliable sources, go ahead. However, just because young animals' activities are similar to what humans would consider "playing", it doesn't mean it is anything close to what is the subject of the article. Your phrase "might be considered" is a strong clue against the inclusion of this information. If we included it in this form, it would quickly be dismissed as original research -- Nczempin (talk) 17:25, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

## Spelling

3.5 Business Games says "Many business games focus on torganizational behaviors" - should it say "organizational"?

124.198.142.94 (talk) 23:46, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

## Edit request on 1 December 2011

Mang rene (talk) 10:18, 1 December 2011 (UTC) <a href='http://nakblogonline.com/coolest-pc-games-duel-monsters/'>free download game</a>

Not done, non notable--Jac16888 Talk 11:46, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

## Proposing an improved definition

I'd like to propose an improved definition, one that I sincerely believe is definitive, as opposed to merely descriptive: Game: An activity in which achievement of a goal is challenged by motion, obfuscation, chance, or the actions of opponents. This definition is the result of a careful analysis and I really think it precisely identifies the sufficient and necessary conditions for something to qualify as a game. My analysis on Google Docs.

-Jack Bellis Jackbellis (talk) 17:57, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

## Chris Crawford rubbish

Chris Crawford's "rules" are drivel and should be removed. It's like the stuff people say in the pub. 81.153.0.101 (talk) 10:26, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Not sure I agree with that. It doesn't seem any worse than anything else in that section, and as a published writer on game design he seems to have sufficient authority to be worth quoting on the subject. --McGeddon (talk) 13:38, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I absolutely agree. He may be a game designer, but it doesn't change the utter irrelevancy of his definition. High school sports are no longer games since they aren't undertaken for monetary purposes. WesPhil (talk) 12:33, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

## "Sexual games"

'...redirects here. See, this is why wikipedia, otherwise most worthy project, is not recommended to children. I am pretty convinced a lot of children might type this article name in. And I doubt most people looking for Game care that Sexual Game reditects here. So why is that information in the second sentence? Actually why is it even there, when I never expressed interest in it with my query? Well, I do know why, everybody knows. That's sick, really. 01:27, 16 February 2014 (UTC)94.78.131.202 (talk)

I don't think Wikipedia has a policy for being children-friendly. However, I removed that redirection note since this article does not contain anything related to that topic anyway. I personally think a "sexual game" is not really a game, and thus should be in its own article instead. Ahyangyi (talk) 14:22, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
I've pointed the actual redirect at eroge, which is what this article's hatnote was suggesting to the reader. --McGeddon (talk) 14:25, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
No objection to the edit - just an observation that there are a few "adults only" tabletop-games and party-games (including any game that starts with the prefix "Strip-") so "sexual games" does not exclusively refer to sexually explicit videogames. Rmsgrey (talk) 19:44, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

## Semi-protected edit request on 24 December 2014

Information about "Games" redirecting to "Game" should be added on the top of the page (below where it says "For other uses, see Games (disambiguation)."). 174.29.175.19 (talk) 23:50, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Not done This is automatically added if you arrive at the page by trying to go to games if have not been redirected, it doesn't matter - Arjayay (talk) 18:57, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

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## Video and computer games.

When on social games, individuals go out of their way to cheat, con, even going so far as to reprogram to inhibit another, to remove an individual (or individuals), then those games are no longer games, but clear and definite indications of forms of 'demencia' which go hand in hand with defined sociopathies, severely skewed theologies, and substance abuse. The later agravating any nurtured asimetries in such a form and manner that they would change word definitions in a dictionary by and through force to maintain circular delusions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.39.122.242 (talk) 18:39, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

You are so right. When it stops being fun, even for one player, it's no longer a game. Dolberty (talk) 13:25, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

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## Key components

You forgot the main thing: fun. Also replayability. Dolberty (talk) 10:40, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Almost any activity can be treated as a game even if not generally thought to be one, hence the reproof "So-and-so is not a game" often administered to boys in particular. Davidnugget (talk) 10:06, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

## Reference Lua error

Seeing a citation error regarding Lua. Someone needs to fix it. Might look into it later. British Potato (talk) 14:08, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

## "Freegamer" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Freegamer. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 May 15#Freegamer until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 20:31, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

## Information under sports and which qualify as games needs clarification

It is stated that racing and gymnastics are not games despite their inclusion in the Olympic Games. I feel this is not a fair comparison and misses the process of what is added to the olympics and how they are chosen. Perhaps the definition used in this section is not quite the best. I suggest comparing and contrasting the definitions and explaining why they’re included in the Olympics despite disagreement as a game. 2603:6010:7601:7D57:A462:631B:C146:DBC0 (talk) 13:42, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Racing and gymnastics can be games. I do not think this site is very reliable. 92.1.105.195 (talk) 08:57, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

## Chris Crawford really needs to go

Does anyone really take this definition seriously? He isn’t particularly qualified to define a game just because he can make them. I think, even as the article suggests, that his definition is entirely non applicable to the majority of what is considered a game. I will remove his section in short time based on these reasons. I don’t believe his definition makes the criteria for anything notable here. WesPhil (talk) 17:42, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

## Wiki Education assignment: Research Process and Methodology - RPM SP 2022 - MASY1-GC 1260 200 Thu

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 February 2022 and 5 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): XXcP (article contribs).

## Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2023

```EDP445k (talk) 17:18, 25 October 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
```
Not done: No info given. 01:38, 26 October 2023 (UTC)