Talk:Gender equality

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Redirect to Gender Egalitarianism[edit]

[[While historically, there is a distinction between Equity, Equality, and Egalitarianism. However, within the realm of Gender Equity, Gender Equality, and Gender Egalitarianism, they have become synonymous. I suggest, redirecting Gender Equality to Gender Egalitarianism.]]Italic text Yes, since "sexual equality" is already redirected there, this should do the same. --Espoo 13:36, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

NPOV/NOR[edit]

NOR: Google: 3,960,000 = Gender equality; 7,850 = Gender egalitarianism; 358 for "zygarchy" (all wikipedia)

Redirecting all to Gender Equality, including all cites. --Yamara 05:27, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

This sentence in the first section does not have a neutral point of view: "However, women embracing pornography and other anti-social behaviour at times associated with male groups is widely criticised." It implies that pornography is part of anti-social behaviour, whereas 'female-friendly' porn is starting to become more mainstream. I would recommend removing the words "anti-social" to neutralize this sentence. 69.196.180.118 (talk) 18:44, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Gender equality is one of this project's central concepts. It was AWOL.[edit]

(reposted from Portal_talk:Feminism)

Essentially, variations on Gender equality had been hijacked six or so months ago by redirects to both Zygarchy and Equalism, and had actually begun to affect the conversation across the internet.

This is bad news, as these terms have nothing behind them but ill-defined assertions. I've rarely been embarrassed for Wikipedia, but this is one of those moments where the site's power was left in the hands of POV/OR mischief-makers.

"Zygarchy" is a made-up word that would never meet the WP:NEO standard if anyone had caught it. It has never meant "rule of two genders" before someone asserted it on Wikipedia. There are a couple hundred blogs out there crowing about the "new word they'd learned" while learning less than zero about notable, verifiable internationally-established gender policy. (Somewhat ominously, "zygarchy" is an obscure but genuine term for an ancient military formation involving two chariots. I think the chariots were used to run infantry over... or to cut them down with a chain between them...)

"Equalism" has been used by notable sources and scholars-- but never consistently. There was some effort to use it to refer to communism in the fifties, anarchism at various points, and some among the Facebook crowd seem to like it better than "feminism"; one news citation in Sweden counts it as a subset of feminism. That is to say, it's a semantic game: There is no "-ism" there, just a desire for one, a moving target without a developed philosophy behind it. I've redirected it to a far more notable article, Egalitarianism.

Nearly every instance of a wikilink to Gender equality had been piped to Equalism. That's what last night was all about for me: finding and removing the plumbing from this phantasm.

I've reestablished the Gender equality article with cites to the UN and an external link to the World Bank. I've added it to the various gender studies and feminism templates. This is one of this project's central concepts, and we really have to watch these pages. Cheers, Yamara 21:43, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

See also section[edit]

At this writing, the See also section could get very long; the intent is to first gather all the gender equality-specific articles there, and then work them into a proper article as we review their relevance. -Yamara 20:31, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

See also: http://www.wikieducator.org/Gender_Balance--24.69.201.228 (talk) 04:11, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

...Nothing there now... -Yamara 03:49, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

What is 'this philosophy'[edit]

I know it's a lot of work establishing good entries of any kind on Wiki, and sometimes edit conflicts lead to a really big mess.

Sooooo...
Last section reads:
"Many followers of this philosophy would like to see this term come to replace “feminism” or “masculism,” when used to describe a belief in basic equal rights and opportunities for members of both sexes within legal, social, or corporate establishments." What is 'this philosophy?' The gender equality philiosophy? Why then does it later mover on to read 'egalitarianism,' which is a different philosophical variation? "weasly" doesn't describe it - very confusingly worded is more accurate.LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 15:47, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, that's inferior legacy text. It has no (and never had any) citations, so it's fair game to eliminate. WP:V I think it came from the "Equalism" article that I investigated and found wanting... I left it in case whoever was building the "Equalism" article and its redirects wanted to speak up and defend their work. (I put the "Semantics" header on the section, which is the only subject I could see unifying the paragraph.) I've been ignoring it while questing across Wikipedia for actual articles on the international policy and goal of gender equality, and adding them to See Also, so that users will at least have somewhere further to go for research. And, a more complete article could grow from these.
Sometimes I find it's all right to leave in inferior legacy text, if it's connecting parts of an article which would be less clear without it (like my struggles with Immortality). But I think this one is distractingly unhelpful. If no one does anything about it before I'm back from Real Life in July, I'll remove it myself. Cheers, Yamara [[User_@/http://
talk:Yamara|]] 02:11, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Gender equality vs. Gender inequality[edit]

I can't see any serious reason to keep Gender equality and Gender inequality as two distinct articles. The current articles differ in their focus but this is mainly because they were written by different others with different ideas, intentions and expertise. The articles almost suggest that the term "equality" is used only in reference to economic development whereas the term "inequality" is only used in a more sociological aspect. This is incorrect and misleading. The articles should be merged so that strengths of both articles can be combined into a more thorough overview of these issues. Pascal.Tesson (talk) 22:26, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Qualified Oppose: Gender inequality is a long-standing sociological phenomenon, with roots in history, biology, etc., influencing every aspect of human life. Gender equality is only one widely proposed goal or solution set to the injustices of the former—there are other approaches to gender inequality than its eradication or alleviation.
Much more needs to be done for the Gender equality article, as its economic aspect is only one facet of the goal. The See also wikilinks provide ample material about the development of the concept in the fields of religion and law, and expansion on the term based on its history could make a good first step in expanding this article.
Other than that, at the highest level of global diplomacy and international law, "gender equality" is a term of art designated to specific goals, with conscious economic, legal, and sociological implications (cf. "gender mainstreaming"). This is one serious reason: a highly notable use should not be overwhelmed by detailing its inverse within its article. (I had removed a section, after tagging it for a couple months, that had a discussion of gender equality in semantic terms, but was unreferenced and likely POV.)
I am qualifying my opposition to a merger in that some discussion of, and wikilinks to, Gender inequality here would certainly be helpful. But the focus of these articles are distinct:
  • Gender inequality is a long-standing once-universal condition of the past and present.
  • Gender equality, for a notable selection of people, is a goal of the present and future. —Yamara 08:44, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

CatSnads: I agree with the above article as it makes perfect sense and people researching this area would only need one window open to have their infromation in front of the as opposed to two. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.151.5 (talk) 17:46, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Merge by Faunas reverted, AGF; no consensus for 11 months on this issue, no response to my points above before the attempted merge. Merge tags removed, since it's been 10-11 months with no discussion. -Yamara 22:12, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

symbol?[edit]

The picture shows a "generic symbol for gender equality," but there's no info about the symbol in the article? Шизомби (talk) 06:59, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone else disagree with this title: Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown)?[edit]

On the Talk page I've just said it is sexist and patronising beyond belief to have this title, because it suggests that this women is only definable by reference to her husband. Can you please leave your thoughts to have this moved to an alternate title? Thanks, Wikidea 15:24, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Gender equality and health[edit]

The Swedish study mentioned in the article is one study that seems to contradict other studies that show benefits to health from higher gender equality. I haven't read these studies but have seen them referenced in Jämställdhet och folkhälsa 2009 (Swedish) (Gender Equality and Public Health 2009) by Karolinska institutet. Among those studies are Kawachi I, Kennedy BP, Gupta V, Prothrow-Stith D. Women's status and the health of women and men: A view from the States. Social Science & Medicine 1999, 48(1): 21–32 and Stanistreet D, Bambra C, Scott-Samuel A. Is patriarchy the source of men's higher mortality? Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health 2005, 59: 873–876.

Thus mentioning the Swedish study as it's presented now may be WP:UNDUE. Some comment about the connection between gender equality and public health has it's place in the article, but it should better reflect the scientific consensus.Sjö (talk) 08:00, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

UNICEF?[edit]

UNICEF defines gender equality as "levelling the playing field for girls and women by ensuring that all children have equal opportunity to develop their talents."

Uh, couple of problems here. One, surely gender equality is about so much more than equal opportunity for children? Why, there's so many more problems than that. So how necessary is it to keep this plainly incorrect definition, really? Second, how can a sentence so biased towards women exist in gender equality? Gender equality is about more than "levelling the playing field" for girls and women, it's also about levelling the playing field for boys and men. All in all I don't think that sentence represents the concept very well, and I think it's too irrelevant to the article to remain here. Thoughts? Styrofoamblade (talk) 15:59, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I changed that text, since I couldn't find it on the UNICEF web site. The current text is more along the lines of what you wrote. As an aside, using "defines" in this context is misleading.Sjö (talk) 07:29, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

iagree....! it should be non bias at both the end when it comes to levelling of the gender at this point Udyankapadia (talk) 18:51, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Equivalence not Equality ![edit]

The word equality has tended to be bamboozled into use, without specifying the relevant parameters. Equivalence is the correct term. If this becomes recognized, more intelligible discussion is possible.— Preceding unsigned comment added on 14 June 2013 by 146.90.177.25 (talkcontribs)

Do you have a suggestion for the article, or is that just a comment on the discussion about gender equality? Sjö (talk) 05:18, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

History[edit]

How can the biological differences between men and women be shared? I understand what is meant. Respectfully, Tiyang (talk) 04:25, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Women's education in Saudi Arabia[edit]

Template:Talk Page Contribution

The article I will be writing is part of a course assignment for an economics course at the University of Utah. This topic is important because in surrounding middle eastern countries, there seems to be a great deal of advancement towards women's equality in social, economical, and educational systems. However, in Saudi Arabia there seems to be inequality in education between men and women. In the planned article I want to discuss; why there is segregation in the educational system in Saudi Arabia, how segregation in the educational system in Saudi Arabia effecting women, the progress for women's equality in education in Saudi Arabia, and what the segregation of education means for women in Saudi Arabia when they enter the labor force. I want to discuss a couple categories with subcategories such as the inequality of education with some points of interest as to the why, how, and understanding of the segregation in education, followed by a category of the inequality in the labor market in Saudi Arabia with subcategories of why, how, and understanding of the segregation in the labor market. If there is any way I could get feedback as to what might improve the planned article from editors I would greatly appreciate it. BrendonPorter (BrendonPorter) 19:52, 6 March 2014 (UTC) BrendonPorter (talk) 02:52, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

A brief critique of the focus on women and womens rights in a topic centered on equality[edit]

I find it mildly unsettling that in an article purporting to center around equality I found only one brief paragraph talking about men. I find it equally disturbing that at no point in this article was there mention of gender equality as it relates to conviction rates as well as sentencing. This is a brief concern and I may come back to it to attempt to shed some light on the masculine sex, but for now I simply state it as a critique on the female centered view of this article. In summary, I would simply like to call attention to this article, as I believe it to be gender biased.Asclepius94 (talk) 10:29, 14 July 2014 (UTC) Asclepius

This article presents gender equality in regard to women's rights because that is how it is presented in reliable sources. Gender equality is described by all international organizations - the UN, the Council of Europe, the European Union, etc - in terms of the need for women's emancipation. It is women who are denied legal, not to talk about social, rights all over the world. Millions of women live in countries where they cannot even work for money, access medical care, and in some cases even get out of the home without the consent of the husband. Maybe you should familiarize yourself with marriage laws around the world. Women in many countries do not have equal inheritance, property and land rights. The international consensus is that women are oppressed and lack rights, not men. The only people who object to this are men's rights activists, but Wikipedia is not MRA's personal site dedicated to their fringe ideas.2A02:2F0A:508F:FFFF:0:0:BC1A:B4BD (talk) 02:54, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
Regardless, the article is about gender equality: we're not talking about discrimination against women - we're talking about equal treatment. Violence against women, access to education, salary differences etc. are all valid issues - and since they're the most commonly thought of, they should get a large portion of the content per WP:WEIGHT. But inequality is also about treating people differently in more subtle ways: there are prejudices against both genders. For instance, if I say the word "criminal" (or "rapist", "murderer", "pedophile" etc.), you'll probably think of a male. I won't comment on whether this particular article requires more male focus, as reverse discrimination articles such as male rape and domestic violence against men exist, but "gender equality" is different to "women's rights". Bilorv (Talk)(Contribs) 20:39, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
EDIT: And I strongly object to you calling it a "fringe idea" - I agree that women are discriminated in many ways and that there are serious issues there. But I would also say that segregation, stereotypes and stigmata can affect males as well as females in a negative way. Men wanting to do ballet, knit or play the flute may struggle, if not from direct teasing, from perceptions of what others might/would/do think. Bilorv (Talk)(Contribs) 20:54, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Egalitarianism is listed in General issues[edit]

Egalitarianism states that that all people should be treated as equals. If you apply egalitarianism to gender or sex you get gender egalitarianism which is a synonym to gender equality. Since egalitarianism does nothing that can be considered sexists I see no reason for having it listed under issues.--Machm (talk) 11:57, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Issues are not necessarily negative. Not everything listed there is negative. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 07:32, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Section "Post-war era" - unsourced, WP:OR, biased and inappropriate; it should be removed/rewritten[edit]

Section "Post-war era" reads:

"In the 1960s, a more general movement for gender equality developed based on women's liberation and feminism. The central issue was that the rights of women should be the same as of men. This movement was triggered by
During the Second World War, the general departure of able-bodied men to the theatres of war required women to take up "male" roles on a large scale. This development was avidly co-opted by communist and left-wing forces since it represented a major collapse of established social structures, a principal aim of communism. The landed classes had been declining in influence in Europe since the first world war; the second world war resulted in the withdrawal of the western powers and of western capital from their erstwhile colonies, and the decline of the landed classes in those colonies. Leftism therefore was on a roll across the world, and feminism progressed apace with it.
In the post-colonial era, the European powers felt the need to institute new forms of control across the world, and established numerous multi-national agencies for this purpose, most prominently the United Nations Organization and its affiliates, and tasked them with molding the development of the third world in a direction expedient to the west. Newly independent societies were to be streamlined and standardized in harmony with the supposed blessings derived from the European renaissance; the colonial project of de-culturing subject societies and re-molding them on these lines was transferred to the international agencies. Projection of the cultural superiority of the west was indispensable to maintaining an imitative mentality and derivative market in the former colonies, and the status of women proved a surpassingly useful tool to these ends. The communist bloc, fattened with many pickings both in eastern Europe and the former colonies, had to deal with its own existing subject societies and internal diversities. They therefore participated fully in this project."

The whole text is unsourced, WP:OR, biased and inappropriate. It should be removed/rewritten.2A02:2F0A:506F:FFFF:0:0:5679:42A6 (talk) 14:46, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

  • I did that. And thanks, "IP User", for putting the above 2 paragraphs here on the Talk page, where they can be found easily again. For7thGen (talk) 04:25, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Our terrible WP display of changes made[edit]

I'm truly ashamed of our terrible WP display of changes made. When any rearranging of paragraphs is done, WP just mindlessly compares the old paragraphs (on the left) with the newly arranged paragraphs on the right, and the result is often complete garbage. So I just went back and redid my changes to this article today, to help other editors see what I did. I first redid all my rearranging in one extra step. Then I redid my changes, expecting that WP would mindlessly display each (rearranged) old paragraph on the left next to its newly-changed version on the right. But WP still mis-compared (ie, mis-displayed) some of them! Mindless might be okay, then all I'd have to do is completely separate my rearrangings (in one step) from my rewording changes (in a different step). What we have now seems even worse than mindless! For7thGen (talk) 04:25, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Diffs are a difficult challenge for computer programmers. You might want to read about it at Help:diff. Binksternet (talk) 05:41, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Shakers[edit]

The above one-word title for this History sub-section simply does not help the WP readers enough. My title, "Shakers, an example of gender equality", helps our readers by focussing on this important aspect of the Shakers, the sub-section's subject. User:EvergreenFir evidently feels that "the subject of the article", gender equality, should not be included in a heading, referencing bullet 1 of MOS:HEAD, which I'll cut-and-paste here to help this discussion:

  • Headings should not refer redundantly to the subject of the article, or to higher-level headings, unless doing so is shorter or clearer. (Early life is preferable to His early life when his refers to the subject of the article; headings can be assumed to be about the subject unless otherwise indicated.)

I am replying to this editor that the Shakers are in fact an example of "the subject of the article" but that my title is functional (by helping our readers) rather than redundant, as follows:

Yes, a careful reader with good comprehension who reads this section, with just the one-word title above it, will eventually understand that the Shakers were or are an example of gender equality. But if my title appears above this section, the reader's job is made easier and faster––just imagine you are the reader, with the alternative titles above the sub-section. So my title functionally helps the reader rather than "refer(ring) redundantly to the subject of the article".

I believe EvergreenFir is trying to help our readers, the same as I am, and I hope this editor will now agree that my title is helpful rather than being redundant. And that my title is fine with regard to the rest of MOS:HEAD, of course. Always trying to help the readers, For7thGen (talk) 06:01, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I personally prefer the title "Shakers" - it is concise, and I think your title is at least slightly redundant, as well as somewhat unnecessarily lengthy. The article is about gender equality, so it is implied that Shakers have something to do with gender equality and "an example of", I feel, does not add much detail to that. The first sentence under the heading ends "were early practitioners of gender equality"; I would say that makes it more clear why they deserve a place in the article than the longer heading does. Both headings convey similar things, and I would prefer the short one - simply "Shakers". Bilorv (Talk)(Contribs) 06:46, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Add critique against male circumcision in 3.8 Harmful Traditional Practices[edit]

Male circumcision on children is a practice that many male equality debaters are against, just as people are against female mutilation. The normal argument is that this is something that every individual should be able to choose for themself when they are old enough. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tommten (talkcontribs) 06:21, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

"Gender equality" not "feminism"[edit]

I could be mistaken, but i believe the title of this article is "Gender equality", not "Feminism". Disregarding Gender_equality#Humankind's_underlying_gender_biases and it's non-neutral language, the Gender_equality#Efforts_to_fight_inequality exclusively features actions and legislation put in place to promote female equality to males, making information on the page essentially a copy of the information on Feminism. Regardless of how people might feel about the Men's rights movement, since this is an article about equality between genders, not of one in relation to others, major issues from that movement should at least be mentioned. By not having them in the article, you are skewing the meaning of the page itself. This is an encyclopedia that informs people about things, and it cannot achieve that goal if it is only representing one side of a movement.

One example of this that really annoys me is the section on "Harmful Traditional Practices", which starts off with "...committed primarily against women" and goes downhill in neutrality from there. It neglects to mention tribal traditions like the bullet ant gloves that boys are forced to don as a rite of passage in the Sateré Mawé tribe in Brazil (this tradition requires that they complete the 10–minute process over 20 times during the course of several months). For such an obvious and well–known example of harmful traditional practices that target males to be left out of the appropriate section on the Gender Equality article is a clear example of bias. For the sake of the integrity of the encyclopedia, please add male examples to all subsections that can be found to have male equivalents.


Additionally, it would be worth noting that there have been movements to expand gender equality to non-traditional genders, such as trans men, trans women, etc, and add some of these genders' organizations' actions to the appropriate subsection.

Crossark (talk) 17:54, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

The "primarily against women" bit was cited to a reliable source; however, the sentence was actually copied word-for-word from the reference, so I've rephrased it. The source also says "Younger women are the main victims although men are also sometimes affected", so I've mentioned this.
To give men equal coverage in the subsection (or whole article), where damage against them may not be equal would be undue weight, so if reliable sources show it affects women more than men, they should receive more attention in the article. On the other hand, I have added a small paragraph using the bullet ant example you suggested, as I agree that men can still be affected by tribal traditions. Please feel free to edit any of my changes or the rest of the article if you feel there's anything biased that misrepresents or omits information from reliable sources. — Bilorv (talk)(contribs) 14:37, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Girls' access to education[edit]

UNFPA defines gender equality as "Education is important for everyone, but it is especially significant for girls and women. This is true not only because education is an entry point to other opportunities, but also because the educational achievements of women can have ripple effects within the family and across generations. Investing in girls' education is one of the most effective ways to reduce poverty."

Please delete this UNFPA statement and find a better one (with gender-neutral language) because it isn't about gender equality. Gender equality mean that you doesn't make difference beetween males and females, education is human rights issue and it have to be accessible for everyone regardless of gender. You can't say that someones education is more useful than others. Furhtermore this statement is very one-sided because it's mentions only poverty reduction as an positive effect, but there are others for example higher education means lower crime rate. — Unsigned comment written by User:Jla158 on 17 January; manually signed by User:Bilorv.

First of all, thank you for not reverting again and discussing this. Secondly, on talk pages you should sign your comments by using the code ~~~~ so people know who has written what — see WP:SIGNATURE.
The quote doesn't seem to be listed on UNFPA's website today, although can still be seen with archives. Because it's not currently on there, I've removed the quote and replaced it with something that is currently displayed on the website. However, even if you disagree with the quote, it should still be included in the article because it came from a reliable source. You might think that an article about gender equality should only use gender-neutral language, and not focus unnecessarily on women, but we must give due weight to what reliable sources say. — Bilorv(talk)(c) 20:02, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Men's rights and Womens rights.[edit]

This definition of Gender Equality seems different to Google [1] and Oxford Dictionary [2].

"Gender equality, also known as sex equality, gender egalitarianism, sexual equality or equality of the genders, is the view that men and women should receive equal treatment". Why is gender divided into men and women? What about non binary people? or the indeterminate gender status? [3] or the Australian "no gender" status ? [4]. This article assumes the only genders are men and women.

"The related topic of rights is treated in two separate articles, Men's rights and Women's rights." - This sentence at the start of the article seems illogical. How can rights be divided into men's rights and women's rights? Gender Equality is a state where rights are unaffected by a person's gender. Pregnant Transmales who identify as men must have the same rights as cisgendered women in a state of gender equality

80.111.246.210 (talk) 17:11, 6 April 2015 (UTC) Alexis Christian

References

The dictionary definition is not adequate here. It does adequately summarize the article per WP:LEAD. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 20:12, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a dictionary; we can and do have broader statements of what a topic is about. Binksternet (talk) 16:05, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
It's not a dictionary , it is an encyclopedia. I'm not replacing the UN definition, I'm including the dictionary / Google definition for the reasons above. There are more legally recognized genders than male and female. Like you said, Wikipedia has broader statements about what a subject is - so why does this article only state one definition from a 1997 report? 80.111.246.210 (talk) 22:17, 10 April 2015 (UTC) Alexis Christian
The version without the changes that 80.111 is trying to insert reads better. Also we don't usually just crib our definitions from Google because it may be a copyright violation. gobonobo + c 16:41, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
At the moment the lead is taken entirely from a 1997 United Nations report - is that not a potential copyright violation. WP:BADPOV and misleading edit summaries go against the pillar of neutrality 80.111.246.210 (talk) 20:50, 11 April 2015 (UTC) Alexis Christian

I think it wisest to acknowledge within the article's lead that there are other genders, and to clarify why they should not be included in this article. (For clarity and brevity, ie, to avoid complication.)

The above paragraph is my Edit Summary from 19 April 2015, when I added a sentence in the article's lead, to that effect, to help our readers. Always trying to do so, For7thGen (talk) 00:25, 17 May 2015 (UTC)