Talk:Genesis creation narrative

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Ex nihilo[edit]

I doubt the current claim that ex nihilo is the one and only mainstream and not being challenged since the third century. IN so far I ask as well to revert [ provide an improved version. Thnx Polentarion Talk 01:23, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

recent revert. TomS asked to discuss it here. Feel free to do so. Pico recently made a statement at creationism in the line of 'anyone before Darwin was a creationist', as there was TINA. That made raise some doubts about his competence in matters theological. a) a belief in creation is not being a creationist (like wise being a biologist does not mean you are an adherent of biologism). b) creationism is a rather modern movement and c) creatio ex nihilo is far from being the sole Christian or monotheistic cosmogology since the 3rd century and d) of cause one could and did doubt a divine creation before. Polentarion Talk 15:33, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
I don't see where there is any source provided for "His 1523 homilies about genesis rejected the merely deistic concept of a creatio ex nihilo of a Deus otiosus." I am unsure if deism was a well-formed (or at all formed) notion in his time for him to even reject; this seems to be ahistorical OR. Jytdog (talk) 19:05, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
No problem to change that sentence. Both ex nihilo and Deus otiosus are much elder than the term deism, but - with regard to an act of creation - embrace a comparable concept and Luther is quite outspoken against it. Leibniz much later came up with god as the "low quality watchmaker" btw. Luther seems not to have a problem with that. The current version and claim about ex nihilo being the sole and only concept needs to be changed anyway. WP:BOLD refers to a "discussion" - just deleting content without a suitable explanation is not meant by that. As said, I ask to reestablish the section about creatio continua. Polentarion Talk 19:16, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
This article is about a specific bible narrative, the creation narrative (or story) in Genesis. It's not about the theology of creation, except in so far as it needs to discuss the theology of the passage. Personally I wouldn't have anything about modern theology, but other editors some years ago felt there was a need to explain that contemporary creationism is a misunderstanding of the biblical text (which indeed it is). If you want to write about post-biblical understandings of creation, the proper articles are History of Creationism and Creationism. 22:54, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
Any interpretation of the creation narrative is post biblical and it is always about theology, current or past. You state things about ex nihilo, e.g. third century and reverted others. I assume you try to construct a single biblical interpretation for all faiths and all confessions - which is a completely futile attempt. It seems to be based on your personal interpretation of the theology of creation and has no scholarly base. The different interpretations of the narrative beyond ex nihilo belong to the narrative. Given that background, I ask you to self revert your changes. Polentarion Talk 06:32, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
The article is about the text. It deals primarily with the meaning of the narrative at the time it was written - about 500-400 BC. The authors wrote what they regarded as the best account available of how the worl came into being - as an act of God, over 6 literal days. I can find you many RS to back that up, and I doubt you can find any that say otherwise. The biblical authors were, in that sense, Creationists. They did not, however, believe, nor did they say, that God created matter itself - in their view he simply worked with what was already there, which was water, the origin of all matter. Luther and his ideas about God's creation came so much later as to have no real contact with that world - and that's what our article is about, the long-vanished world of an ANE text. PiCo (talk) 12:14, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

I honestly do not believe it was written around 400 BC as you so emphatically assert. I honestly do believe it was written around 1600 BC as my religious organization teaches. You have absolutely nothing to back up your assertion of 400 BC, no smoking gun, just the usual "accept this particular tenuous hypothesis as fact, or be censured, silenced, and ostracized from scholarship via minimalist peer pressure." I'm sorry, but I see you as the main obstacle to giving everyone a fair representation here. (talk) 13:33, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

The date is not the subject that Polentarion is addressing - please don't sidetrack the discussion. But just for the record, the idea is not that Genesis was written at that time, but that it was completed then. The usual explanation is that there were several stages, beginning in the Monarchy, continuing through the Exile, and ending up in the Persian period with a text pretty much like what we have today. You can check this in the sources given in the article.PiCo (talk) 13:45, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
The IP is partially right. The article is about an important narrative. The section in question, Creation_and_creationism, tries to insinuate, that a third century AD Christian interpretation is the ruling one ever since. That is far from dealing primarily with the meaning of the narrative at the time it was written. Compare e.g. Kalevala - the article is about a 19th century reconstructed myth, but much more detailed about its multifaceted relevance in the comparable short history ever since. The topic here deserves a similar approach. You seem to be driven by the US-specific impact of creationism. As a German, I do not have to care much about that.
Luther's interpretation is of importance for nowadays Christian non-creatonists interpretations. Take the EKD statement as an example, which is Christian, distances itself both from creationism and ID and referrs to Luther and Calvin with regard to creatio continua.
Overall, there is no indication why the article should or oven could refer to "the interpretation on the time it was written". That is a construct. There never was a single interpretation. "Modern Theology" starting from the 17. century has been aware that there have been different sources in different centuries. Not only Ratzinger in the 1960ies assumed that the biblical authors and editors were quite aware of that. As said, I ask you to revert yourself and give the topic the space it deserves. This should not be another chapter of the US controversy about creationism. Polentarion Talk 14:12, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
Creation ex nihilo is the idea that God created matter itself - that nothing existed before God began creating. Luther shared that idea. So did all Christians between the 2nd century and the present day. Our article is simply pointing out that this is not the author of Genesis meant. PiCo (talk) 02:01, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
"So did all Christians between the 2nd century and the present day." Sorry, but you base that quote on rather selective reading. Take Luther's quotation, that you attempt to delete and ignore. The claim given is based on Friedrich Schleiermacher, the father of modern historical criticism, his ex nihilo expresses the dependence on God. And the current article section fails to explain the very point you make here. Polentarion Talk 06:52, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
Read the section in the article, and read the sources on which it's based. The article is about the theology of the Genesis creation narrative, not about the theology of Friedrich Schleiermacher.PiCo (talk) 07:03, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
Done both, and Schleiermacher's historical criticism and his approach to creation is something you refer to without being aware of it ;) It reminds me of Keynes: "Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct theologian" ;) Polentarion Talk 10:17, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
You seem to be under the impression that the ideas in that section are mine. They're not, and I didn't write the section - in fact I argued against its inclusion. But since it's there, the ideas it expresses are those of biblical scholars.PiCo (talk) 10:24, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
So then it includes a rather selective choice and imho basic misinterpretation of biblical scholars (which include theologians btw). I tried to provide a more accurate view, you restored to Status quo. In so far I ask you again to revert your changes. Polentarion Talk 11:02, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
The material you want restored is a misunderstanding of what ex nihilo means. It means that God created the Universe out of nothing - that he created matter. Luther only questioned whether he did this once or continuously. The Genesis 1 picture is quite different - when God begins creating, the waters of tehom already exist, covering an earth which also already exists. God creates neither of these. You see the difference? PiCo (talk) 11:30, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
Maybe there is a misunderstanding from both sides here. I fully agree that the narrative we treat here includes some aspects of elder, babylonian cosmology. But it provides a different view as well compared to that - it introduces monotheisim. The gospel of John - the start with the logos - is much more "ex nihilo" than the creation narrative(s) in Genesis. Luther seems to have been quite aware of that already. Calling Luthers approach on creatio continua a minor difference, is a rather generic perspective. Major wars, some of them 30 years long, have been started about much smaller details. Polentarion Talk 15:07, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Proposal: BC -> BCE[edit]

Since this article concerns a myth that is essentially Jewish (albeit inspired by other sources), and only subsequently adopted by Christians, I propose that BCE be used in place of BC. This would correct some rather jarring text like: "7th or the 6th century BC (the Jahwist source)". Thanks. Isambard Kingdom (talk) 12:41, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

  • Oppose and continue existing years-long consensus for BC/AD. Wikipedia is not censored in consideration of religious sensibilities, the most infamous example of which would be our open display of images of Muhammad despite strong objections and offense from Muslims across the world. Offensiveness is inherently subjective and arbitrary anyhow; a Christian could theoretically be offended by Wikipedia's use of the terms Thur­sday for the fourth day of the week or Mars for the fourth planet from the Sun due to their pagan-derived names, and in fact Christian Quakers have already provided secular alternatives to the pagan weekdays in the same way BCE/CE were provided as alternatives to BC/AD from within a religious group due to religious objections. BCE/CE are obviously more notable than First Day, Second Day or Third Day are in referring to weekdays, but the point remains that we shouldn't allow religious sensibilities or objections dictate our use of one era or the other. Christianity doesn't "own" BC/AD and Judaism doesn't "own" BCE/CE. — Crumpled Fire contribs 13:01, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Support per nom. — JudeccaXIII (talk) 16:47, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Support as well. Wikipedia is the last place I can find the BC/AD convention used in any sort of academic context. If memory serves, even Yale is using the BCE/CE convention. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 22:13, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
What nonsense. CE has only caught on in America - and only partially there. BC remains completely normal in other forms of English. This is partly a WP:ENGVAR issue, and MOS:COMMONALITY applies. Johnbod (talk) 15:55, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
@Johnbod: Prove it. Bet you can't. Before you go around declaring "nonsense," I strongly suggest you do some research to make sure it is nonsense. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 16:05, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
Also, the BBC allows writers to use either BC/AD or BCE/CE depending on the circumstances [1]. So, not really an "American" thing per se. Isambard Kingdom (talk) 16:10, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
As the article says (and note how it has to explain BCE/CE), The Guardian, flagship of UK liberalism, mandates BC/AD, as does the British Museum, The Times etc. I've never actually heard CE used on the BBC, whose historical output I'm a heavy consumer of. Certainly when dealing with material related to non-Christian religions CE may be preferred - note that Mpant's 2nd link only applied to religious education, and I'm not sure if the changes proposed were ever implemented. To claim that "Wikipedia is the last place I can find the BC/AD convention used in any sort of academic context." certainly is nonsense. Johnbod (talk) 16:22, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
What world do you live in where The Guardian, the Times and the BBC are academic institutions? They're media outlets for crying out loud. Knock off the attitude. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 17:12, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
Oh, wait, are you so sure that the British Museum "mandates" the BC/AD convention? [2] [3] [4] [5] MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 17:16, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
And what about articles that are mostly about Jewish culture? Isambard Kingdom (talk) 16:25, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
Personally, I often use CE for topics with a non-Christian cultural background (Chinese, Islamic, Jewish, Indian etc), but BC otherwise, for example on the Ancient Near East. I think this one is rather borderline Jewish and Christian, so I haven't !voted on the issue. Johnbod (talk) 16:32, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Support It's a question of WP:NPOV, not censorship. No content is being removed from the article.--agr (talk) 22:35, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
This official 2005 proposal, classed under the NPOV subheading specifically argued that BCE/CE represented a neutral point of view while BC/AD did not, and that proposal failed. Wikipedia's NPOV policy is often misunderstood. Wikipedia definies it as "representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." BC/AD and BCE/CE are both widely used by reliable sources, at about equal proportions (BC/AD is more popular in general use, BCE/CE in academia). So allowing them both at Wikipedia is in the true spirit of NPOV. Being truly "religiously neutral" with the calendar is impossible, as using the Gregorian calendar itself as the standard is a Western bias. BCE/CE and BC/AD refer to the same thing, one just removes the inherent religious reference despite not changing the epoch that bases itself on an inherently religious event. — Crumpled Fire contribs 22:45, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
"BC/AD is more popular in general use, BCE/CE in AMERICAN academia", you mean - see above. Johnbod (talk) 15:55, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
Right, hence my proposal. Isambard Kingdom (talk) 22:47, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
It may remove the explicit religious language, but it still refers to the count to and from that inherently religious event, and IMO unnecessarily obfuscates the calendar era's nature and origin. True religiious neutrality would be to use Holocene calendar or some such alternative that doesn't date from the birth of Christ. But as is, using BC/AD is no more or less religiously biased than using the Gregorian calendar itself. I digress, I don't expect to win the argument here, but I don't believe you'd win the entire encyclopedia's agreement to ditch BC/AD as MjolnirPants has suggested, especially since Jimmy Wales seems to dislike BCE/CE himself.Crumpled Fire contribs 23:01, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
That a proposal to switch to BCE/CE for all articles except those with a clear Christian view point failed to gain consensus 12 years ago does not mean there are no PoV concerns with BC/AD use in specific articles. The vote at the time: 89-for, 103-against, tells us that many editors saw it as an issue way back then and there certainly was no consensus against using BCE/CE either. The question was left to be considered on case by case basis. As for other calendar questions, I would note that the article does not use the common names for the days of the week and saying "dry land was created on Tuesday," would sound jarring to most people. That the common era starts on a year once thought to be the birth of Jesus is a far more tenuous religious connection than appending "Year of Our Lord" to dates, and changing to a different calendar epoch would render our article unintelligible to most readers.--agr (talk) 17:57, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Support, same reasons as above.PiCo (talk) 23:01, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Support Academic usage is becoming more and more common because BCE is a neutral term. Encyclopedia Britannica also uses BCE in their article on the book of Genesis[6] - while that doesn't mean that we also have to do that, it is yet one more indication that neutral academic sources have already made that transition. First Light (talk) 05:47, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment given the (so far) snowball support here, at an article where this is likely to be contentious, If the unanimity continues, it might be appropriate to get a community discussion going as to whether we should update MOS:ERA to favor the BCE/CE format. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 13:53, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
Unless the definition of unanimity has been changed, I don't think it can continue since we don't have it. And if this current RfC discussion at Talk:1 is any indication (the end result of the 2005 proposal by the late User:Slrubenstein seems to reflect similarly), the community is generally either ambivalent about whether to use AD vs. CE, or divides almost equally for both camps. — Crumpled Fire contribs 22:34, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
  • There is already one oppose, so its not really a snowball, and I will add an oppose as our target audience is not academics, but people with a high school level of education, for whom BCE may be confusing. A foot note or link on the first use could explain that BC is the same as BCE. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:58, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
A foot note or link on the first use could explain that BC is the same as BCE. Would you support if we did that? Changed to BCE and added a footnote? MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 22:07, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
Graeme Bartlett, so on the basis of your reasoning, would you support not using BCE/CE in any article? Because (if as you suggest) high-schoolers wouldn't understand it in any article? Isambard Kingdom (talk) 22:10, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
It is generally the case that BC is the more understood than BCE, but I won't make a blanket case for all articles here. However, I can be definite in saying that Muslim or Nepali calendar dates should have the Western calendar dates included. In some other contexts I prefer Ma or Ga, but you could claim that this is too obscure for the average reader too, and just say "xxxx years ago". NPOV for BCE/BC, is not so relevant as BC is very similar to BCE for those that know what it stands for. Using CE or AD is much more a POV statement either way, and neither is neutral if spelled out. CE is much more obscure for our readers, and it is good that we hardly have to say AD or CE, as most years will be understood without the postfix. My other comment is that if "BCE" is used, it should be linked or footnoted in such a way that people can tell that it means BC. Also BC could be linked in a way so that it links to a disclaimer that says that use of BC or BCE is not an endorsement of belief in Christ. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:35, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
Okay, thank you. So, I want to understand, you would Support or Not Oppose if there is a footnote, then. Right? Isambard Kingdom (talk) 22:38, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
So I am opposing, but if the change is made I would like to see the link/footnote. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 07:47, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Support per nom and because encyclopedias are scholarly, so we should use scholarly usage. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 04:52, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Comment Aren't we not supposed to switch between the two dating systems without a really really good reason? I haven't seen an article actually make the switch, so I don't know what qualifies as a really good reason, (hence not providing a vote) but on instinct, this doesn't seem like enough.Farsight001 (talk) 23:09, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

I was just thinking about this... MOS:ERA is a bit frustrating because the current wording, "Do not change the established era style in an article unless there are reasons specific to its content", doesn't offer any help about what could be constituted as good reasons. I don't believe the argument "this article is about Judaism so use BCE" or "this article is about Christianity so use BC" really holds water, because (1) how can you quantitatively identify whether an article is more "Jewish" or "Christian" in the first place? This article is a perfect example, as it is a subject relevant to both religions. There are tons of subjects like that. And (2) we don't similarly use other calendar eras based on the article's "religious affiliation", like Anno Mundi in Jewish articles, or Anno Hijra in Islamic articles, so why do it for BCE vs. BC? The current wording of MOS:ERA just invites pointless discussions like this based only on user opinions of the validity of one era vs. the other, its alleged familiarity and/or relevance to the reading audience, or whether the article we're talking about is more linked to non-Christian religions or not. It just doesn't make sense to me. I'm considering opening an RfC at the MOS/DAN talkpage to possibly get this changed or clarified, else this will keep happening without us having any real compass on what constitutes a valid argument to change from one era to the other. The only valid criteria for changing eras that I can come up with is that the majority of article sources use one instead of the other. That still invites a potential problem: editors preferring BCE may intentionally hunt for sources that use BCE just to argue for its implementation, and vice versa. We need to strongly consider implementing a system that incorporates both Common Era and Anno Domini equally by way of a template, or specifically assigning BC/AD to certain topic categories, and BCE/CE to others. — Crumpled Fire contribs 23:33, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Two things: First, referring to something as snowballing is not the same thing as citing WP:SNOW. For those who've disagreed with me, you should look up the idiomatic use of the term "snowballing", which generally means "getting bigger as it proceeds." I know this is a quibble, but two people have taken it upon themselves to chide me for what amounts to their own mistakes. Apologies if I seem to be chiding back, I'm simply trying to clarify.
The second thing is that, honestly, the arguments I'm reading from the oppose side, specifically those from Crumpled Fire are reinforcing my view that we should change these dates, and seek a community consensus to deprecate use of the BC/AD format. This is due to the same reason that the BCE/CE format is used in academia: It is more neutral. Sure, it may have roots in a religious belief, but it has moved past them to become a secular (not to be confused with anti-religious) convention. It is akin to Halloween: a religious festival that has become a thoroughly secular one. Christians, Jews and Muslims (not all of them, of course, but many) regularly celebrate Halloween in its secular incarnation without concern for the fact that it originated as a pagan festival. Similarly, pagans, Jews, Muslims (and Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists, Taoists, Shintoists and Atheists) can all use the BCE/CE convention without worrying that it has Christian roots.
The last thing I want to say is that I think Crumpled Fire has a good idea above when they say We need to strongly consider implementing a system that incorporates both Common Era and Anno Domini equally by way of a template. I have created a template before, and I can do so, again. I'm not sure exactly how this would work off the top of my head, but I'm sure we could come up with something, as a community. My initial idea is for a template that can be used instead of the text "BC"/"BCE"/"AD"/"CE" which, by default displays the BCE/CE text, contains a tool tip explaining how this refers to the same dates as the BC/AD convention, and (if possible, I'm not sure it is, though I'm certainly willing to try) allows the user to click to change all instances on that page to the BC/AD text. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 15:48, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Quick note, if the Lua code wiki uses allows access to cookies (I'm not a Lua expert), we could possibly design the template such that clicking on it will change every instance of that template's use to the preferred format, across all of en.wp. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 15:51, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
BC/AD is standard, so I ask to keep it. And Halloween started as a true judeochristian holiday - since it starts on all saints eve. Take sabbat starting on friday eve or christmas/new year as well. The neopagan bullshit is 19th century, Frazer and so on. Polentarion Talk 18:40, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
This is the second time I've seen you say something that is so far removed from reality that I'm not sure how to address it. You are wrong. Please do some research before offering your views as facts. Oh, I'm referring to everything you said, not just your claim about Halloween having purely judeochristian origins. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 18:54, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
Right. Polentarion, please keep comments relevant to this article and this proposal. Thanks. Isambard Kingdom (talk) 19:18, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
Oppose. As said, I ask to keep BC/AD. Halloween started in Rome, in May and celtic origin is a 19th century construct and as remote as for a Queimada. Polentarion Talk 21:11, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
@MjolnirPants: I never chided you for the "snowball" use, I do agree that the discussion was snowballing in favor of BCE/CE. What I specifically referred to was the term "unanimity", which has a common definition of "everyone is in agreement". It seemed to me that the use of that term was a dismissal of the existing comments that were not in unanimous agreement. I apologize for any misunderstanding or if I did not express myself clearly enough there.
It's interesting to me that you've chosen Halloween as an example, since I would personally see that particular example as being an argument for BC/AD, not BCE/CE. Yes, Jews/Muslims/etc. all celebrate Halloween in its "secular incarnation", but the important point is that the word Halloween remains. No one has changed it to "Common Fall Holiday" or something like that to accommodate non-Christians. Yet, that's what "Common Era" is to Anno Domini. There are plenty of other examples as well; "goodbye" means "God be with ye", yet many atheists including myself, continue to use it in its "secular incarnation" without feeling the need to call it "Common Departing Phrase". Same with Hindu-Arabic numerals, we could call them "common numerals" to make it neutral but we don't. This whole argument boils down to semantics and how words originate and evolve. And the most interesting part to me is that while terms like "Halloween" and "goodbye" are used secularly in their full unaltered form, Before Christ and Anno Domini are always reduced to an acronym form—BC and AD—which is much less explicit in its connotations to any reader. Many have told me they like to think of BC as "Before Count" and AD as "After Demarcation" or something to that effect, not to mention the very common "After Death" misconception. BC/AD are much more practical, they sound different from each other, look different, and are hard for anyone to confuse with each other. AD is Latin, but so are many common phrases in modern English like "bona fide" or "et cetera". Ultimately none of this is really relevant on this talk page, and it looks like BCE/CE will win out here, but if another Wikipedia BCE/CE proposal is made I will certainly bring these arguments to the table at that time. I'm glad we agree on the idea for some sort of template system, perhaps that is something that can be fleshed out in any future official proposals put forth to the community. — Crumpled Fire contribs 21:35, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
Halloween is an interesting example here yes, scnr above. It is a Christian remnant, the lost souls are the one in purgatory, a concept lost ever since and being deemed "celtic pagan" long afterwards. BCE/CE is just a political correct neophyte, like seasonal greetings and Kwanzaa. Happy festivus ;) Polentarion Talk 22:26, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
@Crumpled Fire:Ignore the comment above this one, it has no basis in reality, and nothing to do with the subject of this thread.
I never chided you for the "snowball" use... What I specifically referred to was the term "unanimity"... I never used that word. I could only imagine you making reference to it in the context of WP:SNOW, as that is the only logical link between "snowballing" and "unanimity". If it was unanimous, it wouldn't be able to snowball, as it would have just had total support from the get-go.
but the important point is that the word Halloween remains. No, it isn't. What you're doing here is making a false analogy argument: Just being able to point out a fault in the elements of my analogy doesn't change my analogy. If you want analogies that don't use Christian words, look up a secular Western wedding ceremony, look at how many secular businesses are closed on Sundays, or look at the various secular 'church' groups popping up, or (better yet) look at a Universal Unitarian church service, which uses Christian conventions, but caters to Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Sikhs, etc, etc. There are more, many more examples of secular things with religious origins. Their origins do not make them religious or irreligious, their usage does. BCE/CE is used in a secular sense, hence it is a secular term.
terms like "Halloween" and "goodbye" are used secularly in their full unaltered form Ummm.... No, they aren't. Not even close. You yourself just described the expanded version of "goodbye", and we all know that "Halloween" is a contraction of "All Hallows Eve". Notably, neither "halloween" nor "goodbye" make direct reference to religion.
BC/AD are much more practical Most of academia (and this thread) disagree.
Many have told me they like to think of BC as "Before Count" and AD as "After Demarcation" It can't be that many, because those meanings are not well documented. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 02:36, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
@MjolnirPants: I was referring to when you'd said "If the unanimity continues", seen in this diff.
In regard to the analogy examples, my point was that the words "Halloween" and "goodbye" evolved toward those more abbreviated forms naturally and without any intervention, they weren't jettisoned and replaced with a completely separate generic term. AD is more comparable to "Halloween" and "goodbye" than CE is; it evolved in a similarly natural way: the full form was "Anno Domini nostri Iesu Christi", which then shortened to "Anno Domini", then ultimately to "AD", whose full meaning remains uncertain or misunderstood to many in the general population and whose use is generalized. AD is in effect just as secularized as "Halloween" or "goodbye", seeing that it is widely used in many secular contexts and by secular organizations and people. Of course, CE is used secularly as well, but mainly in academia and often when there are political or religious biases involved. CE is also used in a "religious" sense, seeing as it was initiated by religious Jews to whom a direct reference to "the year of Our Lord" was blasphemous, and it is most often used in contexts involving non-Christian religions. For example, Wikipedia mostly uses BCE for articles relating to Buddhism, Hinduism and Islam, but BC for secular topics on ancient historical societies like Ancient Rome, History of China, History of Japan, and Ancient Egypt. Ultimately, CE & AD both refer to the same era of the same Christian origin—only the semantics differ—and both are widely used by reliable sources, so we as an encyclopedia shouldn't say that CE is objectively better to implement than AD so long as both conventions are in common use. It's no different than WP:ENGVAR except that people tend to take religion a lot more personally than whether color should have a U or realise should have a z. — Crumpled Fire contribs 13:04, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
I was referring to when you'd said "If the unanimity continues", seen in this diff. Holy crap, I completely forgot I used the word there. My apologies, I had specifically changed that comment after previewing it to replace the word "unanimous" and I apparently missed that I've used it in a different tense a sentence later. Suffice it to say, it is not what I meant. My mistake, entirely.
As to the rest of your comment, I'm sorry, but you're just not convincing. At the end of the day, the vast majority of people consider BCE/CE to be a secular (and thus, neutral) term, and consider BC/AD to be a Christian (and thus, non-neutral) term. That's the crux of the issue. Yes, you do have some points, but none of them really change what I just said. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 13:16, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Support. Anno Domini#CE and BCE says: "The "Common/Current Era" ("CE") terminology is often preferred by those who desire a term that does not explicitly make religious references.[45][46] For example, Cunningham and Starr (1998) write that "B.C.E./C.E. …do not presuppose faith in Christ and hence are more appropriate for interfaith dialog than the conventional B.C./A.D."[47]" Keahapana (talk) 01:33, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Do not change the established era style in an article unless there are reasons specific to its content. Sensitivity to the Jews isn't a good enough reason, since by their reckoning we are in 5776. For Muslims, the year is 1437. So the dates used are according to the Christian calendar, and as such, there is no good reason to change the designation. HokieRNB 14:17, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
So the fact that this article is about a Jewish myth isn't good enough for you? Isambard Kingdom (talk) 16:40, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

8 support (including the nomination), 4 oppose. Can we close this now and make the change? Isambard Kingdom (talk) 19:50, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done Now, perhaps, we can move on to other things. Thank you. Isambard Kingdom (talk) 01:27, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

smithsonian EL[edit]

See basically done discussion here Jytdog (talk) 04:15, 22 September 2016 (UTC)