Talk:Georg von Habsburg

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He's not archduke[edit]

This man is not Archduke because the nobility titles was abolished in Austria in 1918, in addition is illegal his use. To name the article “Archduke Georg of Austria” is unreal, iundemocratic and it does not respect the Austrian people and the Republic of Austria. User:Hinzel --Hinzel 03:53, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Even in Austria afaik it is not forbidden to style anyone else an archduke. By the way, the name of Austria is actually the family name of the dynasty commonly known as Habsburg-Lothringen, seeing that Habsburg was lost in the 15th century, Lothringen was lost in the 18th century and the state (and today, the Republic) of Austria actually got its name from the family, as the state does not only include historical Austria (Lower A., Upper A. and Vienna), from which then again the family takes its name, but also Carinthia, Salzburg, Styria, Tyrol, Vorarlberg and even Burgenland. -- (talk) 10:40, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

The use of titles by non-reigning royal houses is a claim made by the family based on custom and precedent. It has no legal bearing and where laws exist otherwise such as Austria can't be used officially. In social and other unofficial settings, it can be used and frankly should be used as a sign of respect. Also, countries with a monarchy may choose to recognize a title foreign to them for use and often do so. Belgium is a good example of a country that has the practice. Republics may do the same. France will verify noble titles as a power that has been assumed by the president from the kings and emperors of France.

No, still not an Archduke, and no Crown Prices, Princesses, HI&RH, etc. either[edit]

There are no Archdukes in either Hungary, Austria, or Germany.

In Hungary:

  • in 1921 the Hungarian government passed a law which revoked Charles' (I of Austria, IV of Hungary) rights and dethroned the Habsburgs.
  • the Statute IV of 1946 regarding the abolition of certain titles and ranks, still in force,
    • declares annulment of the Hungarian aristocratic and noble ranks, such as duke [1. § (1)]
    • forbids the use of honorifics referring to ranks or titles abolished by this Statute [3. § (3)]

In Austria:

In Germany:

  • "Following the First World War, both Austria and Germany became republics, abolishing the nobility and all the privileges and titles pertaining thereto."
  • "Article 109 of the Weimar Constitution, inter alia, abolished all privileges based on birth or status and provided that marks of nobility were to be valid only as part of a surname. Pursuant to Article 123(1) of the present Constitutional Law, that provision remains applicable today."[1]
    • Privileges based on birth or social status were abolished.
    • "Noble titles form part of the name only; noble titles may not be granted any more."

In effect:

  • Both Austria and Hungary have legislations in force dethroning the Habsburgs. Germany has abolished the nobility in 1919.
-> No-one is a prince, crown or otherwise, duke, arch or otherwise, baron, earl or whatever of that sort of either Hungary, Austria or Germany.
  • Both Austria, Hungary and germany have laws abolishing hereditary aristocracy, with noble ranks and titles.
-> No-one can legally call himself/herself as such in either Hungary or Austria. The previous titles may form a part of the surname only in Germany.
-> No citizen of either Hungary or Austria can legally call another citizen of Hungary or Austria a prince, archduke or whatever of that sort.
  • Both Austria and Hungary have laws against noble honourifics.
-> No citizen of Austria or Hungary can legally be styled using ranks or titles of aristocracy and nobility.
-> There are no His/Her Imperial and Royal Highnesses (HI&RH) in either Hungary or Austria.
-> In austrian law, no citizen of Austria can have a "von" (= "of") nobiliary particle as a part of his/her name or style.

On the other hand:

As members of this family may hold multiple citizenships, German being among them,

-> it can be argued that their legal name in Germany is "X von Habsburg", given that this name is written so in their German passports.
-> it can be argued that their legal surname in Germany contains parts such as "Fürst", "Erzherzog" etc. given that the surname is written so in their German passports.

In the case of citizens of Germany, "marks of nobility were to be valid only as part of a surname".

  • In this case, as nobiliary particles do not denote legal rights and privileges, and but only may become a part of the surname of the person,
-> "von" should not be translated as "of".
-> Parts of the surname referring to noble titles pre 1919, such as "Fürst", "Erzherzog" etc. should not be translated to English.
Translating parts of the surname would be analogous to translating the names of US Presidents Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter and George W. Bush to German as Gerald Furt, Jimmy Fuhrmann and Georg W. Busch.
-> HIH/HRH etc. styles are not parts of the surname, and thus should not be used.
  1. ^ OPINION OF ADVOCATE GENERAL Sharpston delivered on 14 October 2010 (1) Case C-208/09