Talk:Georgian–Armenian War

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search


Is this the same war that is discussed on article linked here? [1]

This article is not concordant with any sources I have. All the sources I have mentions that the war happened after the Turkish invasion of Gyumri(Alxendripole), and from it Javakh was taken away from Armenia. Akhalkalak, from the sources I have was part of Armenia, and is inculsive with European maps of historic Armenia, while the article quote the place as a historic province of Georgia. Is there any non-Georgian map, or non-Georgian, non-Turkish/Azeris map that show this? In fact, the Alxendripole investigation was done in the proximities of the region, where a cite of massacre happened, and as a result Armenia lost it, when the Georgians allied with the Turks to end the war. Letter Javakh was annexed to Georgia, and Karabakh to Azerbaijan as part of this policy of destroying Armenia from the Turkish part comploting with the Soviet with false promesses of joining the federation. Those are pretty much accepted versions of events, while here in this article the position is quite different. Fadix 20:30, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Georgian-Armenian War 1918[edit]

This is the first time I have ever posted any text on any forum. The disgraceful comment made by one of "Armenian historian" has sickened me to such an extent that now I have to write down a response.

The Georgian-Armenian War was described as it truly was and two main important points have been made by an author: 1. It was provoked by Armenians by their invasion of a sovereign country; 2. The war did alter the image of South Caucasian countries to the world.

The territory itself was settled by some Armenians after Turks forced them out of Turkey's eastern provinces, apparently some in Armenian government had assumed that Javakheti was Armenian as some folk there were ethnically Armenian. After defeating the foreign invader, Georgians, unlike Turks, didn't retaliate toward their own people of an Armenian origin.

Only geographical convenience lies behind many Armenians reshaping and brutally redrawing the maps of its neighbors; otherwise the Southern California would have been long reshaped and colored the same color as Armenians use to color their country.

The best way to end such frequent biases by Armenian users of wikipedia, is by creating a search category named something like: "Armenian dreams", "Armenian chauvinism", "Armenian lies". I am absolutely positive, that this kind of category will prove one simple point - many Armenians use lies and biases as an instrument of their chauvinistic propaganda. It's just pity that their unimaginable, confusing, cowardly interferences harm the image of the region as a whole.

So, with all my respect to Armenian historians and their "maps", please, use them as a substitute to a toilet paper.

I hope this will be my last post on a forum.

Wash your mouth, you may keep such a durty language at home but here in Wikipedia we have rules. As for my "fictif" Armenian lies.
Here, this from Britannica Volume V01, Page 456 (1911)
Pop. (1897) 15,387, of whom many were Armenians, as against 15,977 in 1867. From 1579 to 1828 Akhaltsikh was the capital of Turkish Armenia.
The rest of the population were also Muslim. The Armenian population there didn't appeared after 1915. Maybe then, probably you should check the maps that you are using as toilet paper. Regards. Fad (ix) 04:20, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Uhh, I see, our "historian" gets little emotional and liked the idea of utilizing their maps more efficiently...very good, very good, I like quick learners. Very impressed with your knowledge and references! You know, I am going to quit arguing with you. My final advice - try to learn Georgian, and then you will understand what "Akhalkhikhe" and what "Akhalkalaki" means; I really can't go on and try to prove something that is as clear as their name says.

War of 1918 on Wikipedia you've decided to have remakres made on was based on pure unbisaed factual information; but our little "historian" didn't like it. So good luck to you and keep going with your pointless propaganda, but one friendly advice - throwing trash at your neighbours (and not only Georgia) is not smart... it is harming you tremendously already... and why you let things deteriorate to such an extent? and why you think that your neigbours are your enemies? I don't know, it's really your problem... I know you really wish all southern Georgia to be yours, but you do know the reality too - you need to have good relationship with Georgia as you've already managed to antagonize eastern and western neighbours... and why? Cause someone like you, didn't use those "maps" where they belong... you guessed it right - in a toilet... :)

For next post, I'll be waiting for your at least 25 references, no less! And I am waiting for amernian encyclopidea of 1932, or 1933, ok, as an exception, I'll let you use 1945 edition... but please, no maps, I mean toilet paper; they are too rough, if you know what I mean :) (Only applicable to Armenian arses)

1- I do not live in Armenia, never have set a foot there.
2- Wikipedia does not require 25 sources, you claimed Armenians appeared there in 1915, while Britanica of 1911 says otherwise.
3- The name of a region doesn't say much about its population.
And lastly, continue with this tone and it won't take much time for you to be banned, I have posted few links about Wikipedia policies on your talk page you should read them. Since you are a newbie this time I will close my eyes and pretend as if there was nothing wrong in your behavour. Regards. Fad (ix) 18:21, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

1. A didn't say all Armenians have appeared there in the 20th century; but many have 2. The "rest of muslims" you mention citing britanica, were Georgians, whose religion was muslim (later deported by Stalin) 3. It's OK for a country to have other nationalities living on it's territory, doesn't mean though those nationalities reshape historic borders of the country they live in. 4. I've never said you live in Armenia, I just said your arse is Armenian; any doubts on that? :)

How about you stop with the saucy insults? The antagonistic behavior has been from you. Fadix has provided concrete information. Try to respond with some decorum, don't allow bigotry and paranoia to get in the way. Hakob 21:58, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Arnavoudian quote[edit]

This is obviousoy taken out of context and cannot stay in the stub text. Furthermore, the quote is from an Armenian source and is POV. There are plenty of Georgian authors who would claim just opposite and describe the war as Armenia's attempt to oust the Muslim Georgian population from the region. Let's keep the text as neutral as possible. --KoberTalk 07:25, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Thats fine thanks. --Vonones 07:34, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Recent Changes[edit]

I have beefed up the article using material from Christopher Walker and Andrew Andersen. I have also added "Armenian Phyrric victory" to the result (WP:BOLD) because land that was previously under Georgian administration became joint administration. Also if you look at one of Andersens maps, they show that part of the territory that was previously Georgian administration was put under complete Armenian administration. That's this map, see Sanain and everything south of there. Pocopocopocopoco 02:59, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

After a considerable success, Armenians suffered a defeat on Dec. 14. The mutual administration was the result of the British-brokered truce, not the war. Georgia and Armenia had to fight the nascent Islamic state in SW Caucasus. Therefore, they chose to make peace and agreed to the British-proposed compromise.--KoberTalk 05:08, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
That would be a good thing to add in the article that the nascent islamic state was a motivation to end hostilities. If you have a source of course. Pocopocopocopoco 00:54, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Sadakhlo, Shulaveri and Andersen[edit]

We need a source for these recent additions as I can't find it in the website link in that section. Also, although I used Andersen myself to expand this article I have some concerns about the reliability of this source. Please see the discussion at Talk:Qazakh and the discussion at Talk:Qazakh/archive if what Mikka says is true then we might have to reconsider using Andersen throughout wikipedia. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 16:49, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

The previous version inaccurately stated that Armenians evacuated Sanahin on December 14. Georgian counteroffensive did not actually reach that village and it remained under Armenian control at the moment of Dec 31 ceasefire. The December 14 battle took place at Shulaveri and the hostilities ended at Sadakhlo. I have not actually read Andersen's article. My sources are David Marshall Lang, Christopher Walker, and Firuz Kazemzadeh. I'll try to expand the article if I have enough time and energy. --KoberTalk 16:57, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
I've got Walker and I haven't found anything about Sadakhlo and Shulaveri. It must be in the other sources you mentioned. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 17:11, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
I rechecked it and you appear to be right. Walker does not provide these details, but two other authors do. Do you have any specific reason to doubt the historicity of these battles? --KoberTalk 17:25, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
I never said I doubted it, it just needs to be sourced as it is inconsistent with what Andersen has on his site. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 17:27, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
DM Lang, History of Modern Georgia, Chapter X, p. 217. Kazemzadeh goes into further details but I don't have his book at hand right now. We can ask our Azerbaijani colleagues to fill the gap as I remember they once cited him somewhere.--KoberTalk 17:32, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008[edit]

Article reassessed and graded as start class. --dashiellx (talk) 15:27, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Armored Trains[edit]

Georgian armored trains played alongside with the artillery units an interesting role by preventing further Armenian surprise attacks in that region. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 00:15, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

background section sources[edit]

What statements in the background section are sourced from Walker book? Alæxis¿question? 10:54, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Map issues[edit]

What are the sources that the League of Nations "asserted" or "ratified" Georgian borders as shown on the map? In fact the League of Nations did not accept Georgia as its member: (this is a quote from Tbilisi University article)

Alæxis¿question? 12:37, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

It definitely shouldn't be used if it doesn't have any other countries for context. CMD (talk) 21:38, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
Alæxis вот и ваши [2] sources. This map is 80% similar to the previous map, different are only borders. So I don't understand what do You want? Frankly speaking You don't like that Georgia looks bigger, than in previous map, do You ? --Balakhadze Flag of Georgia.svg 22:01, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
Georgia can be as big as it pleases. This map should however have borders for neighbouring states (like the non-wiki example you give).
In the end, neither map is really that useful for this article; they're intended to show the difference between Georgia's 1921 borders and Georgia's present borders, which isn't the topic of this article. In the long term, a map showing the Georgian and Armenia of 1918 is what is needed. CMD (talk) 22:10, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
The maps you've given links to cannot serve as reliable sources. Apart from the fact they seem to be created in Georgia and thus might show Georgian bias, the basic problem with them is that we do not know who, where and when published them. The references should be to scholarly sources like books and articles. Ideally they should come from some neutral source (not Georgian or Armenian when we want to prove that League of Nations ratified a particular border between these countries). Alæxis¿question? 22:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
This map scanned from Georgian Historical Atlas. I have that atlas, I can even tell on which page is this map, it is on 15th. Prepared for edition by NGO Education and New Technologies and approved by the Education Ministry of Georgia --Balakhadze Flag of Georgia.svg 22:44, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
The scholarly sources contradict the claim that the borders shown on the map were ratified or in any way asserted by League of Nations. See for example a book State Building and Conflict Resolution in the Caucasus by Charlotte Mathilde Louise Hille, p. 92, where the San Remo conference is described. Georgia and Armenia both claimed the city of Batumi and the railway to it (deep within the "ratified" territory per the map in question). The League of Nations refused to make a decision and instead advised Armenians and Georgians to settle their disputes bilaterally. Again, League of Nationw rejected the Georgian membership request.
The map should not include such controversial information. Let's stick with the old map until it's established beyond doubt that the new one is more correct. Alæxis¿question? 14:28, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
It means nothing, that the League of Nations rejected the Georgian membership request, we are speaking about borders and not about membership. --Balakhadze Flag of Georgia.svg 17:37, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
What is factually wrong with the old map? If any border lines are drawn incorrectly or legend is wrong, let's change it. My point is that contentious claims should not be "inserted" into a map as a legend because then there's no easy way to change them, add references and in general put it in the correct context. Alæxis¿question? 04:41, 26 June 2013 (UTC)


I noticed some disagreement regarding the inclusion of a large amount of text, with a couple inclusions and deletions. I've taken the liberty of copy-editing and sourcing statements more clearly. I believe some of the text may be rather closely linked to the Andersen & Partskhaladze source so do feel free to edit the paraphrasing or order if you see benefit in doing so. In terms of source quality I was somewhat concerned but after doing some digging I've discovered that Andrew Andersen is an academic at the Centre for Military & Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary, so in my view the source is acceptable in principal but some editing is still needed to ensure there is no copyvio.--Labattblueboy (talk) 17:37, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

  • First crack at background sections complete. Footnotes and biblio detail inserted.--Labattblueboy (talk) 18:10, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for copyediting! Alæxis¿question? 19:22, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
  • A number of images are now inserted. If anyone knows of a repository of further images do please advise. I've also set all images to thumb, with the exception of two, which are set to 250. I've separately deleted a couple a couple images because the sourcing is incomplete and copy-right status is not at all verifiable.--Labattblueboy (talk) 18:57, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Anyone have a source for the change of town name from Uzunlar to Odzun sometime around 1967.--Labattblueboy (talk) 18:33, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Troop numbers and casualty figures[edit]

Since another edit was made without any discussion involved, this time on the strenght and casualty figures, it would be better to actualy use the information provided in the sources.

There is a reason why certain edits are made.

There are two main sources that give clear numbers and estimates on the strenght of the opposing forces: Hovannisian claims that the regular Armenian force consisted of a total of 28 companies of infantry and four squadrons of cavalry, equipped with a total of 26 machine guns and seven mountain cannons.[1] They were additionaly supported and reinforced thousands of local Armenian residents of Lori referred to him as partisans and insurgents. He further claims that the initial Armenian army forces were fewer in men, ammunition and supplies contradicting the Andersen stating the opposite as of theatre of action - thus leaving the impression the Armenians beat back a force superior in numbers, which is evidently not the case - far from it and that is mainly due to the lack of description and detail in his brief overview of events on that conflict. It's a fact acknowledged by both sources that the Georgians only managed to mobilise a force considerable enough ( around 3,500 men[2][3] ) for a general offensive not earlier than at Shulaveri. Prior to that Mazniashvili had far less men to attack the Armenians defending Shulaveri which wasn't succesfull and all earlier major counterattacks from the Georgian side were carried out with no more than a few hundred[4] or at very best a thousand men at a time.[5] The claim that the Georgians were superior in numbers factualy doesn't add up and is self-contradicting, especialy with the Armenian army being supported by the local Armenian residents. Hovannian also fails or avoids to deliver actual figures on the casualties of the Armenians throughout his work, stating only they were heavy at Sadakhlu[2] and absolutly no information on all the back and forth between the two armies - with the only exception of 200 Armenian losses during Mazniev's final assault and capture of Shulaveri and surrounding villages.[2] Ultimately he states the Armenians statisticaly had suffered fewer casualties. That may be true to some extent, especialy regarding prisoners, but the total number of a "thousand" POW is highly overbloated given the forces involved and also contradicts his earlier figures taken from single engagements that amount to a total of 790 KIA, WIA and POW on the Georgian side.[5] Again something that doesn't add up and he refs solely one other Armenian source on that = one sided. Same with the claim that supposedly hundreds of POWs taken by the Georgian side were merely people arrested after the conflict - stating also Yerevan's POV on that which is not a credible basis for providing evidence. Same with a Tiflis' based POV and opposition POV and POVs in general. Either provide the casualty figures claimed by BOTH sides and not just limited to one side or stop continuesly deleting information from a more detailed source. Andersen does state that the Georgians during the Armenian first offensive lost hundreds of POW[6] and he also refs Hovannisian on the 500 losses at Airum.[5] However the operations around Ekhatarinenfeld for instance aren't mentioned at all, whereas Andersen goes more in depth and states the Georgians lost 100 while the Armenians around 200 before it even came to the Shulaveri operation.[7] The Armenians were alos kicked out of several other villages and one of their army groups dispersed by Georgian cavalry when trying to regroup.[3], not counting unsuccesful counterattacks mentioned by both authors. The most notable one with an actual figure in the Akhalkalaki theatre where the Armenians supposedly lost 100 men KIA in a single attack.[8] With not even Andersen providing all the casualty figures and both sources have a number of dubious information and POV, it's plausible to keep the casualties "unknown" but at least use the numbers on troops provided and those of Andersen are actual numbers.[9] TheMightyGeneral (talk) 13:02, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

@TheMightyGeneral:, I've undone your edit with the casualty figure. This is not necessarily because I believe them to be incorrect, or final, but because they are not cited. I believe the cited figures should remain for the moment and the best end result is to fully disclose the spectrum of figures.--Labattblueboy (talk) 15:00, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
@Labattblueboy: Hey, I've reverted your edit but cited the figures this time. Those figures are cited in the article itself. I'm not holding back on using Hovannisian as source even though his work has some inconsistencies and partialy dubious POV or at least up to debate and better, more neutral research. Some of the figures from the two different major sources also match with one another. Only one provides more detailed information than the other and actual numbers on the troops part. TheMightyGeneral (talk) 00:52, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
@TheMightyGeneral:No issue with you reverting my edit as I notice that it now contains citations, which was the primary concern all along. I haven't read into the sources sufficiently to provide a reasonably informed position one way or the other but what is there presently seem like a reasonable and comprehensive starting point.--Labattblueboy (talk) 15:34, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
The 3,500 figure is given just for one battle, not the entire amount of Georgian troops deployed. The 1,000 Georgians isn't described as being "far less" than the Armenians. Page 13 doesn't mention 790 KIA, WIA and POW or 500. It seems you're distorting sources to suit your own narrative again. You're dead set that Hovannisian must be unreliable and biased because he's an Armenian, although he's an anti-nationalist. The fact he met the critera for a Wikipedia article makes him by far the most notable. Andersen had his article deleted because he wasn't notable, and I cannot even find any information on Partsakhaladze. --Oatitonimly (talk) 01:27, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

I am sorry Oatitonimly, but your behaviour is unreasonably POV and become increasingly desperate. There are two sources describing the events, one more briefly than the other and stating that exact number and while Hovannisian does clearly not provide detail but just general information, Andersen gives a more detailed overview on the troop strenght of both parties and actual numbers. I also explicitly wrote ""More than 3,500 National Guard and People's Guard troops during the final stages of the war."" in the strenght section, that does not only cover one battle - an actual figure that can be found in both sources - maybe read them for once. There is nothing hard to understand, nor is anything equivocal. You just bluntly delete the relevant and also cited figures, including those of Hovannisian and I am "distorting sources" .... ? how does that work Oatitonimly ? "Page 13 doesn't mention ...." that is the total number of casualties from the entire extract of the read when you simply sum them up. Basic math. I just did that to show the inconsistency and contradiction and lack of information - thus it seems a better idea to keep it generalised, what I did. I also didn't exclude Hovannisian's claims on the casualty figure as you can clearly read. So, your edit and complaint on that point has no value. Again the "where is the 500 .... ?" - bringing up the same question over and over again I am now almost 100% convinced that you have not actualy read either of the sources. I don't pull those figures out of my bottom you see, I've cited them right in the article and right here. You just keep claiming things. Read Hovannisian, "The Republic of Armenia, Vol. I: The First Year, 1918-1919" page 113. Andersen, "Armeno-Georgian War of 1918 and Armeno-Georgian Territorial Issue in the 20th Century", page 29 Why do you keep deleting those information ? Now about Hovannisian. I don't think you seem to understand. It's about vague claims and lack of information / detail and he also just provides a personal POV on the result of the war, read page 119 and sorry your argument is completly invalid. First of all it's not about him being nationalist or not, citing only one sources and from one side is just simply one-sided and needs additional sources or better sources to either validate, discuss or put the information togheter, which I did respectively in the strenght and casualty section - again making your edit invalid. Secondly you've also repeatedly deleted information provided by Lang who is another well known historian specificaly on the Caucasus who meets the "criteria for a Wikipedia article" as you like to claim, being a noted academician. Which isn't the real issue in the first place. Further just because something doesn't suite your personal view - which is POV - doesn't make other source less valuable, especialy when they cite other work and in the basis agree with one another. Read and compare. Finaly, your edits in general seem highly POV driven as you keep ignoring and deleting cited figures without valid explanation and I do not accept your POV on this general topic. How many times do I have to provide and cite information from those sources until you understand it .... ? lastly, another thing you don't seem to understand: I don't do these edits to upset you or anyone, but eliminate ambiguities and keep it neutral. TheMightyGeneral (talk) 08:28, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

  1. ^ Hovannisian 1971, p. 111.
  2. ^ a b c Hovannisian 1971, p. 118.
  3. ^ a b Andersen & Partskhaladze 2015, p. 44.
  4. ^ Andersen & Partskhaladze 2015, pp. 26, 27.
  5. ^ a b c Hovannisian 1971, p. 113.
  6. ^ Andersen & Partskhaladze 2015, p. 29.
  7. ^ Andersen & Partskhaladze 2015, p. 39.
  8. ^ Andersen & Partskhaladze 2015, p. 28.
  9. ^ Andersen & Partskhaladze 2015, pp. 27, 28, 29.