Talk:Giora Epstein

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Modern day record[edit] Erich Hartmann's all time record of 352 kills.

What is a "modern-day record?" Doesn't a record indicated it being an all-time record, by definition? If the above italicized sentence from the Flying Ace article indicates that Hartmann holds a record of 352 kills, what sense does it make to state that Epstein has a record of 17 kills? If I start the clock over from today, I can claim to hold every record imaginable, from high-jumping and the 50 meter dash to fastest breaststroke mile to, well, most planes shot down. DRosenbach (Talk | Contribs) 22:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

They distinguish aerial victories in the "jet-age" from those before. It could be argued that the nature of aerial combat became different. There a much less planes operational and in the air, covering much more area at higher speed, very short engagements etc. Therefore the maximum kills possible are less than in the prop-age. So having 17 jet-kills makes Giora Epstein a very distinguished pilot. In WW2 or WW1 this would not have been that impressive taken only the numbers. --Christian Benesch (talk) 20:47, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, "Jet-Age" includes the Messerschmidt 262. And there we have Kurt Welter with 20+ kills and others. I guess we need a more precise description, sth. like "Jet-to-Jet"-kills or "Supersonic Jet Age". (talk) 10:48, 25 July 2015 (UTC)


It should say jet age record, because getting kills with a jet is signifigantly harder than with a piston plane. For one, there were many more piston planes made during the World Wars, Tens of Thousands, right now, the United States Air Force only has 7500 planes, many non-combat, compared to the huge amount in the World Wars. So if you compare the number of planes and the quality of the planes between the two eras (Piston and Jet) the Jet age record belongs to Giora Epstein, with 17.Joeycfc 16:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Added to that is the fact that the G-stresses experienced by a jet pilot is severalfold higher than a piston/turboprop aircraft. There are several other differences which make BVR the primary "killer" as compared to dogfights; some of them being:

> The closure velocity is manyfold higher and hence the window of attack is very small. > The training of pilots is rigorous at least and therefore even an inexperienced, but well trained pilot is a formidable opponent. In contrast, many of the WW1 and WW2 pilot (actually the overwhelming majority) were inexperienced and were not trained to the extent that modern day pilots are... especially when it comes to tactics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 10:31, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Thats totaly untrue, at the beginning of WW II most of the major powers pilots were effectively trained for dogfights. Well the RAF did have some tatical deficits, but they were corrected after the Battle of Britain. The tatical ACM-Tactics were aedequat for the specific situation. Of course today, without any long running war pilots have quite more time for ACM-tactics training in exercises than in the 1930-1990s.

By the way IDF/AF-pilots couldn't complain on a lack of targets between 1967-1973.-- (talk) 09:44, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, all this arguing is academic, because the highest-scoring jet-to-jet ace was actually Nikolay Sutyagin, with 21 kills in the Korean war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 05:58, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating[edit]

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 04:01, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

airline pilot retirement age[edit]

The article on Giora Epstein says that he is currently a pilot for El Al airlines of Israel. He is now 72 or 73 years old. While El Al does allow pilots to fly a little older than some other carriers as long as they meet certain stringent medical and training requirements, they still cannot fly past 67. Because of this, someone who knows a little more about Giora Epstein and his current life, ought to update this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 17:17, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Epstein should now be 73/74 yo. And still serving as a pilot for El Al? B*llsh*t! I changed the information! — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 18:23, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

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