Talk:Giovanni Dalmata

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Untitled[edit]

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was PAGE MOVED per discussion below. -GTBacchus(talk) 08:23, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Requested Move to Giovanni Dalmata[edit]

Ivan DuknovićGiovanni Dalmata — To reflect common English usage, as required by Wikipedia's naming conventions. Examples of usage can be found below, in the "Simple tests" and "Books" sub-sections.

Please, keep in mind that, per WP:NC, for the purposes of naming this article the names used for this artist by Latin, Italian, Croatian or Chinese-speaking individuals and authors (of the past, present and future) are irrelevant. Instead, we should consider only the names commonly used in English-language reliable sources (mainly those originating in the UK, USA, Ireland, Canada, Australia, NZ, etc.) - Best regards, Evv 04:02, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey[edit]

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

Survey - Support votes[edit]

  1. Support - as nominator. Evv 04:02, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
  2. Support per nom. Appears to be original name (probably moved once before moves recorded in page history), and one who changed it clearly admitted "better known as". Gene Nygaard 02:17, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey - Oppose votes[edit]

1.Oppose- It is Croatian things, Croatiasn culture not italian! --Anto 14:25, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Simple tests[edit]

Google Print test

  • Searching for "Giovanni Dalmata": 37 books in English (7 of which are travel guides).* Searching for "Ivan Duknović" OR "Ivan Duknovic": 4 books in English (2 of which are travel guides, and another one stating the works of Ivan Duknovic, of Trogir, known by the name of Giovanni Dalmata).
  • Searching for "Giovanni di Trau": 0 books in English.
  • Searching for "Giovanni da Trau": 2 books in English, one mentioning with the Dalmatian GIOVANNI DA TRAU (also called Giovanni Dalmata), the other a travel guide.

Google Scholar test

Amazon.com test

  • Searching for "Giovanni Dalmata": 23 books in English (7 of which are travel guides).
  • Searching for "Ivan Duknovic": 3 books in English (one mentioning Dalmata, Giovanni (Ivan Duknovic), Dalmatian sculptor, and the other mentioning the Dalmatian-born Ivan Duknovic, known as Giovanni Dalmata and one Ivan Duknović).
  • Searching for "Giovanni di Trau": 0 books in English.
  • Searching for "Giovanni da Trau": 1 book in English (a travel guides).

Best regards, Evv 04:02, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Books[edit]

Some books, without including the bulk of Amazon.com's 23 results for "Giovanni Dalmata":

  • The Italian Renaissance by Peter Burke, Polity Press, Second revised edition, Cambridge, 1999, ISBN 0-7456-2138-4, p. 78 & 296 (index):
    ...not only made Giovanni Dalmata a nobleman, but...
    Dalmata, Giovanni (Ivan Duknovic), Dalmatian sculptor...
  • Toward a Geography of Art by Thomas DaCosta Kaufmann, University Of Chicago Press, 2004, ISBN 0-226-13312-5, p.196, 205, 206 & 468 (index):
    ...such major figures as Giovanni Dalmata (recte Ivan Dukhnović) in the...
    Giovanni Dalmata provides a good example. As his name implies, Dalmata, properly Ivan Dukhnović, came from Trogir (Trau)...
    Giovanni Dalmata (recte Ivan Dukhnović), fragment...
    Dalmata, Giovanni (recte Ivan Dukhnović)...
  • How Fra Angelico and Signorelli Saw the End of the World by Creighton Gilbert, Pennsylvania State University Press, 2002, ISBN 0271021403, p.ix:
    ...Giovanni Dalmata,...
  • The Aesthetics of Italian Renaissance Art: A Reconsideration of Style by Hellmut Wohl, Cambridge University Press, 1999, ISBN 0-521-57064-6, p.124 & 364 (index):
    ...of the Dalmatian born Ivan Duknovic, known as Giovanni Dalmata, who...
    Giovanni Dalmata (Ivan Duknovic)...
  • The Art of Renaissance Venice: Architecture, Sculpture, and Painting, 1460-1590 by Norbert Huse & Wolfgang Wolters, University of Chicago Press, 1993, ISBN 0-226-36109-8, p.132 & 158:
    ...the altar begun for [...] by Giovanni Dalmata...
    ...attributed to Giovanni Dalmata,...
(This book is a translation from German by Edmund Jephcott of Venedig: Die Kunst der Renaissance - Architektur, Skulptur, Malerei 1460-1590 by Norbert Huse & Wolfgang Wolters, C.H. Beck'sche Verlagsbuchhandlung, Munich, 1986)

Best regards, Evv 04:02, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

Add any additional comments:
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Name of Trogir[edit]

Quote; "Please, keep in mind that, per WP:NC, for the purposes of naming this article the names used for this artist by Latin, Italian, Croatian or Chinese-speaking individuals and authors (of the past, present and future) are irrelevant. Instead, we should consider only the names commonly used in English-language" Trogir is known in English language as Trogir, not Trau:) And that is also its historical name (on Croatian language). Ceha 18:26, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Traù was the official name of the city, until 1918, and as Traù is inserted in all the World Atlas before that year; it does not matter if English, Spanish, French or German atlas, you will always found "Traù". Historical names shall be reported in the correct way, you should never say that Constantine founded "Istanbul" (Constantinople) or that Kant was born in "Kaliningrad" (Koenisberg). Those are the wiki rules, if you like it or not. Greetings--Giovanni Giove 09:33, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Do you have any internet conformation of that?

Encyclopaedia britannica gives no sorce of that "No exact matches found for "Traù" Below are results 1 - 10 of 91 for similarly spelled words" On the other hand results for Trogir are " Britannica Concise

Trogir Britannica Concise Print Article :: Email Article :: Cite Article

Italian Trau,

port in Dalmatia in Croatia, sited on an island in the Adriatic Sea and connected by a bridge to the mainland and to the island of Ciovo. It was colonized as Tragurion by Syracusan Greeks c. 385 BC and became a part of the Eastern, or Byzantine, Empire in the 6th century AD. Croatians, Normans, Venetians, and Bosnians were among rulers of the region for the next 1,400 years, and Trogir became a part of the new Yugoslav state in 1920. Kamerlengo Castle and St. Mark's tower survive from the Venetian period. The Cathedral of St. Lawrence, Gothic in style with Renaissance additions, is regarded as among the most beautiful in Dalmatia. The town is the site of one of Croatia's major shipbuilding yards. Pop. (1981) 8,588."

No mention that city name was Trau. Just that that was its Italian name (probably the same is with other Dalmatian towns) Ceha 20:25, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Modern Britannica is meaningless for the present problem. Look here to read about 'Traù', or 'Spalato' or 'Giovanni Lucio'[1]. Anyway I'v the direct sources: I personaly old several world atlas and maps (German and others), printed before 1918. I've also several nauticals maps of the K.u.K Marine, with al the names of coastal localties wrotten in Italian, from "Fiume" until the "Bocche di Cattaro". ANd other. Do u need internet sources? No problem: just look for some old map (it's no so hard) and look at the names. Try to find an old mop with slavic names, if you can. I'm really surprise because it seems that this fact is new for you. Good luck for your search.--Giovanni Giove 20:39, 14 February 2007 (UTC)


http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/ is totally meaningless source. You can find no any city in Dalmatia with Croatian name. That says enough about neutrality and accuracy of their texts.

It writes nothing about Croatian component (majority!!) in any of the cities. Only about italophones. And about all these cities talks like cities in Austrian Empire. That would be the same nonsense like speaking about Xiang Gang like about brittish city in East Asia . And all these articles there write about Serbo-Croatian population of the cities.

And final:Duknović is Croatian name , not Italian. At least that is not problem to understand. --Anto 09:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Suggested change of first sentence[edit]

Giovanni Duknovich, called Giovanni Dalmata (also known as Giovanni di Trau and Ioannes Stephani Duknovich de Tragurio, in his birth Croatia known as Ivan Duknovic) was a Dalmatian sculptor who was mainly active in Rome, in Hungary and Dalmatia.

-There is no mention of Croatia, or Croatian (which he obviously was) in this page. Ceha 18:32, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

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