Talk:Global warming

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Featured articleGlobal warming is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on June 21, 2006.
In the news Article milestones
February 28, 2006Peer reviewReviewed
May 17, 2006Featured article candidatePromoted
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In the news A news item involving this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "In the news" column on March 5, 2004.
Current status: Featured article

Move content to "Effects of global warming"[edit]

There is a separate article on Effects of global warming but we have two sections here that deal with effects of global warming in detail. Would it be an idea to streamline things and condense what we have here about the effects of global warming and move content to the other sub-article? I can't judge yet how good the sub-article currently is. Perhaps it would be too much effort. But in an ideal world, if there is a sub-article on "effects on global warming" then this topic should not get as much detail here, in my opinion (to avoid dublication of content). EMsmile (talk) 14:32, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

In general, I support summarizing the key points and making better use of sub articles. Several of the regulars here have also expressed interest from time to time. One editor who has done good work of this sort, and whose name I haven't seen for a long while is Enescot (talk · contribs). HelllLLllOoooOo? Are you still there, Enescot? One thing I liked about his approach was he would post proposed section re-writes on the talk page, and after it seemed like any comments were resolved, then go live by posting the result to the article. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 15:00, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
I would like to come back to this. So if there are no general objections, I would slowly go ahead with this. It's not really about re-writing anything, rather about culling stuff (the culled stuff would be moved to the other article if it's not already there). I would do it very gently bit by bit and people can follow my progress and object if needed. EMsmile (talk) 03:09, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Move content about "long term effects"[edit]

I would like to remove/move this text piece on long term effects. Normally I'd want to move it to the article on long-term effects of global warming, but does it really talk about these long term effects? Doesn't seem so to me:

Stabilizing the global average temperature would require large reductions in CO2 emissions, as well as reductions in emissions of other greenhouse gases such as methane and nitrous oxide. Emissions of CO2would need to be reduced by more than 80% relative to their peak level. Even if this were achieved, global average temperatures would remain close to their highest level for many centuries. As of 2016, emissions of CO2from burning fossil fuels had stopped increasing, but The Guardian reports they need to be "reduced to have a real impact on climate change". Meanwhile, this greenhouse gas continues to accumulate in the atmosphere. In that context, the New York Times reported that scientific installations analyzing oceanic air detected the excess carbon dioxide in the atmosphere "rose at the highest rate on record in 2015 and 2016." It has been suggested that this rise in CO2 levels is the result of changing absorption patterns of the ocean and land surface in that they may have reached the limit of their ability to absorb carbon dioxide. Also, CO2 is not the only factor driving climate change. Concentrations of atmospheric methane, another greenhouse gas, rose dramatically between 2006–2016 for unknown reasons. This undermines efforts to combat global warming and there is a risk of an uncontrollable runaway greenhouse effect.

Do people agree with me moving this out of this article to the other one? EMsmile (talk) 14:25, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

I've made this move now and would like to hear reactions? If people agree then I would make more similar moves so that only a fairly short section on "Effects of global warming" remains and all the other content that is too detailed is moved to the article on effects of global warming. Would be great if people who are more into this topic, and who have worked on this suite of articles in the past, could help me with this endeavour. EMsmile (talk) 06:54, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
I've done the same type of culling now within the section on sea level rise.EMsmile (talk) 07:03, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Moved content about extreme weather events[edit]

Continuing with this: I have moved a piece of text that was in the section on "extreme weather events" to the relevant sub-article. Was going to move it to effects of global warming but it has a sub-article in itself: So I moved it to physical impacts of climate change. There is actually so much overlap and repetition between the different sub-articles. E.g. effects of global warming and physical impacts of climate change repeat much of the same content, rather than one being the overview article for the other. EMsmile (talk) 01:15, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

I am surprised that with 2000 people who are watching this page, nobody is reacting to what I am putting on the talk page... So I hope no reaction equals you're fine with the changes I am making. If so, I will bit by bit continue along the same lines. EMsmile (talk) 14:07, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Condensed content about "social systems"[edit]

I've just completed a cull & condense on the section about "social systems". Again, I am trying to convert this into an overview only; introducing key terms and topics and ensuring people know where to click to find the relevant details in the sub-articles. In general I think a topic that has it's own sub-article does not require sub-headings in the main article. Hence I remove the sub-headings that were there under "social systems" and integrated it all into the text and the bullet point list with examples. EMsmile (talk) 04:12, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Condensed content about "Environmental effects"[edit]

I've just completed a cull & condense on the section about "Environmental effects". But I think further work is still required there. I wonder if I should restructure it in a similar way to "social systems", i.e. without any subheadings and perhaps rather with bullet points. I think the section on "effects" is super important but I want people to just get an overview here and then click through to the sub-articles if they want to know more. Otherwise we risk the situation where people think the section on "effects" is complete and there is not more to it (and they don't click on the sub-articles). The one article that they should at least know exists and has all the content is effects of global warming.EMsmile (talk) 14:04, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Have done more work on the condensing here. Now we no longer have sub-headings below the environmental facts which I think is better. I have also taken out some of the overly detailed sentences. In my opinion, people coming to this overview article are looking to understand the broad concepts and need to know where they can find details in the sub-articles. If we put too many nitty gritty details already here, they will get lost. EMsmile (talk) 02:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Information about developing countries[edit]

I would like to add more information about the particular vulnerability of many developing countries towards global warming. In this context, the terms "free rider" and "forced rider" need to be explained. I am going to be using this article: A simpler version is here: . But those who are more deeply into this topic on Wikipedia: please let me know which sub-articles this would be most relevant to? In that case I could just have a couple of broad statements here and then perhaps add more details in the relevant sub-articles. Appreciate your guidance on this. I am also going to expand the information about global warming in the article on developing countries. EMsmile (talk) 03:25, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

P.S. there is this article Climate Vulnerability Monitor which might need to be linked in better. EMsmile (talk) 03:30, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
I've worked on the global warming section within developing countries. Still needs further work and more up to date reference. Does anyone want to help me? See here: EMsmile (talk) 13:14, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
I'm doubtful we want too much about "the particular vulnerability of many developing countries" here. Their major vulnerability factor is their poverty, and that belongs in an economics article William M. Connolley (talk) 14:37, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
Well we don't need much. I am thinking of just 2-3 sentences, introducing some key terms and concepts and links to sub-articles (e.g. the one on regional effects of global warming. And it's not true what you said about developing countries: think of small island states, they may be inundated and this has nothing to do with their poverty (OK if they had loads of money they could build higher dams, is that what you are saying?). EMsmile (talk) 15:09, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
I have made this edit now, added some information about regional effects with reference to developing countries. I don't want to add more because there is a separate article for it but I think it is necessary to give people some of these "big picture" or "broad concept" ideas in this kind of overview article (and then leave the details to the sub-articles, and help people to find the sub-articles). People otherwise get lost in detail and don't have an overview. EMsmile (talk) 03:24, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Reconstructed temperature plot[edit]

Could someone update the "Reconstructed temperature" plot? Its last datapoint is apparently 2004, which is getting old given the change over the last 15 years, and there must be more recent plots around though I don't immediately find a reference. Thanks in advance — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 18:31, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

On it. I started the project Wikipedia:WikiProject_Environment/Climate_change/Figures_and_art and a colleague of mine will get the most up to date data set. We're also updating other figures related to this article. Femkemilene (talk) 06:43, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I suggest to cull or delete the section on Further reading[edit]

I suggest to cull or delete the section on Further reading. I think it adds no value to the lay person reader who has come to read encyclopedic content, and who already has a huge number of publications to read as shown under citations and references (could we by the way merge this so that it's all under "references"?). The Further reading list is not really helpful, in any case it is far too long. If you think we need it, could we cull it down to the 5 most important or most recent or most influential publications? EMsmile (talk) 01:23, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm of mixed mind about this: there's already a huge number of references, but does it hurt to have even more included as "further reading"? Certainly, we'd be better off if the Further Reading items were linked to sections in the text and thus became actual references. - Parejkoj (talk) 17:07, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
I've culled the further reading list by taking out very old or very detailed/specific publications. I am now left with this list below. I suggest that we add them as in-line citations if they are important (may need to double check if they haven't been cited already anyhow): EMsmile (talk) 01:41, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Further reading (remaining five)[edit]

EMsmile (talk) 01:41, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Keep McKibben because it's a compilation that includes some of the classics such as Arrhenius and Callendar. Santer et al. is short and timely but it may be a little too technical for a general audience. No opinion on the others. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:51, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
Now that the Further Reading section is "gone", there haven't been many reactions, apart from User:Shock Brigade Harvester Boris. So maybe we can really live without it? I am not sure if we really need to put that book by McKibben back in. It is not freely available anyhow. The publication by Santer does sound very scientific, just going by the title. - Are there any other voices that think any of the five need to go back into a Further Reading section? EMsmile (talk) 13:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I would prefer to not show all levels in TOC[edit]

User:NewsAndEventsGuy you reverted my edit where I had limited the number of levels that are shown in the TOC. I think for lay persons a shorter TOC is better. I am following the Manual of Style that is used in the WikiProject Medicine which is one of the leading projects in Wikipedia. Have you got a specific reason why you think showing all levels is better? Let's hear from you and perhaps from other as well what they prefer. Wikipedia articles are not little textbooks that need all levels of the TOC shown in my opinion but should just show up to level 2. A very long TOC can be offputting in my opinion.EMsmile (talk) 02:56, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

I would say, given the length of the article, that it's much easier to find sections with the full TOC. - Parejkoj (talk) 17:13, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for your interest in the article, EMsmile. I rely on the full TOC to review edits, especially batch and structural edits such as you have been doing. If there is a setting that lets the reader expand it, I would support the default being set at lesser level. If that feature does not exist, it would be a good one to suggest at the Village pump for technical issues. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:39, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
I would like to know if any other editor, other than NewsAndEventsGuy, has an opinion about this issue with the TOC? I asked the same question for the article of climate change where I would also prefer a limit to Level 3 for a better overview. The TOC is not there for us editors to help us with our editing but it is there for the layperson readers to get a good quick overview of the content of the article (if an editor needs to review the structure, he/she can briefly remove the limit, review the structure, then put the limit back on). I've looked at a random list of featured articles form Januar of this year and none of them have TOCs that go down to Level 3. They all have higher level TOCs, see these examples: Joe Warbrick, Lawrence Wetherby, Red-backed fairywren, Three Sisters (Oregon), Illinois Centennial half dollar, Oviri. - I know it's personal preference but surely there are more people than just you and me, and it would be interesting to hear opinions from others about the TOC level of detail as well. EMsmile (talk) 01:51, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
Oh and by the way, it is no longer relevant for global warming's TOC as we anyway don't have headings anymore that are "sub-heading 2". But it's still of relevance for climate change where we do have "sub-headings 2". Therefor, I would be include to move or copy this discussion to the climate change article talk page. EMsmile (talk) 01:51, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Moving the section about "Feedback"[edit]

I'm finding the section heading "feedback" a bit strange as it's not a generic heading (things like "background", "causes", "effects" are more standard/generic headings). Would it make sense to combine it with the section about "models" into "Scientific background" or something like that? EMsmile (talk) 04:17, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Better to change "Feedback" (an admittedly vague term) to match the glossary in the back of IPCC AR5 WG1, which has an entry for "Climate feedback". Climate feedback is one of the core ideas; if you don't "get" climate feedback you don't understand the article's topic. Better to leave it as its own heading/section but tweak the heading to reduce confusion.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:47, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
I strongly think we shouldn't remove the climate feedback heading and agree with NewsAndEventsGuy. Femkemilene (talk) 06:46, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 3 June 2018[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No move. It is apparent that there's a lack of consensus for any of the suggested titles. Cúchullain t/c 17:07, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Rename Proposal Alternative A[edit]

Global warmingClimate change – In current every day language and in the media the term "climate change" is nowadays used for the content that is currently under global warming. It is possible that ten years ago when this article was created it was different. A name change has been suggested on the talk page several times in the past but never in an offical format, I think, and never with a full discussion with many editors. When you look at the suite of sub-articles belonging to this article, many of them already use the term climate change, like Physical impacts of climate change, Climate change adaptation, Climate change mitigation, climate justice. Also there are the United Nations Climate Change conference, which are not called "conferences on global warming". They are held every year and generate a lot of media attention who again use the term climate change in their reporting. The existing Wikipedia article on climate change needs to be renamed to something like "climate change (overall)" or "Climate change (all causes)" or "Climate change (geological time frames)", of maybe a disambiguation page. The section on terminology in the existing climate change article already says: "In this sense, especially in the context of environmental policy, the term climate change has become synonymous with anthropogenic global warming. Within scientific journals, global warming refers to surface temperature increases while climate change includes global warming and everything else that increasing greenhouse gas levels affect". I would say most people when they turn to Wikipedia and put "climate change" in the search field they would expect to come to the page that deals with the human-made climate change but now they have to click through to "global warming" to find what they are looking for. Also many of the wikilinks in existing articles use the word "climate change" in the sentences but the wikilink has to go to "global warming" instead of to "climate change". EMsmile (talk) 13:33, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Climate change article already exists and this article is referred to from there, Climate_change#Human_influences. Count Iblis (talk) 15:54, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose עם ישראל חי (talk) 16:05, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose.The situation isn't ideal. I'm not sure there is any 'correct' way of going around this," but giving articles longer titles with brackets isn't going to fix anything. Dmcq (talk) 16:12, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose "Climate change" in the global warming context is nothing more than a euphemism used by denialists. Wikipedia has it right - "climate change" means the changes in climate over time in totality, and "global warming" is the current human-caused warming phenomenon.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 05:03, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Support "Climate change" per overwhelming use in the best references, specifically the lede references and the expansion of IPCC. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:53, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose Global warming is the ongoing human caused alteration of the global climate, whereas ideally "climate change" is or should be, focused on the change over geologic time. Some folks want to obscure things by emphasizing the naturally changing nature of climate ... to protect their favorite fossil fuel ... or whatever. Sorry 'bout that. Vsmith (talk) 21:36, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose – global warming is a subset of climate change; the latter term is used for previous changes, for example glaciation. Human caused climate change equates to global warming, but "climate change" is broader, as discussed in the two articles. . . dave souza, talk 12:36, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
dave souza said "global warming is a subset of climate change". I agree but the current article on climate change does not reflect that sufficiently but only "in passing". Please see what I just just wrote on the talk page of climate change there:'t_we_missing_some_sections? (sorry if this might get messy but we have to discuss both articles in parallel; but I put what I found faulty with the current climate change article on that article's talk page now. Please also note that article is only rated as B class so far. This is actually pretty bad given the importance and high view rates of this topic (3000 views per day; global warming gets 7000 views per day). EMsmile (talk) 15:26, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Rename Proposal Alternative B[edit]

Instead, I suggest we move

Global warming >> Global warming (human-caused climate change) and leave Climate change alone.

Reasons are

(1) Most importantly, whoever closes this discussion please see WP:not counting heads; it is the reasoning presented, and not the number of yes/no that matters
(2) Regulars here frequently point to the major RSs to support their arguments, such as IPCC, Natl Science Academy and so on. In this tradition, the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change is not the "convention on global warming". In the text of the document (Article 1, Sec 2) the topic of this article is not defined as "global warming" but like this - “Climate change” means a change of climate which is attributed directly or indirectly to human activity that alters the composition of the global atmosphere and which is in addition to natural climate variability observed over comparable time periods."
(3) Similarly, IPCC Working Group 1 in the glossary for the Fifth (and most recent) Assessment Report has no entry for "global warming". Instead they provide the following defintion of climate change, which encompasses both natural and human causes

Climate change Climate change refers to a change in the state of the climate that can be identified (e.g., by using statistical tests) by changes in the mean and/or the variability of its properties, and that persists for an extended period, typically decades or longer. Climate change may be due to natural internal processes or external forcings such as modulations of the solar cycles , volcanic eruptions and persistent anthropogenic changes in the composition of the atmosphere or in land use . Note that the Frame - work Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) , in its Article 1, defines climate change as: ‘a change of climate which is attributed directly or indirectly to human activity that alters the composition of the global atmosphere and which is in addition to natural climate variability observed over comparable time periods’. The UNFCCC thus makes a distinction between climate change attributable to human activities altering the atmospheric composition, and climate variability attributable to natural causes. See also Climate change commitment , Detection and Attribution.

(4) In 2013 we discussed this. An ed recommended waiting to see how major media outlets handle the subject and another replied we should follow the academic literature. The google hit test is always dubious but FWIW, in Google Scholar, limited to 2018 articles, the ratio is roughly 3 climate change hits for every global warming hit.
(5) To comply with the sources in (2) and (3) above the title should include 'climate change' and on the other hand, there are plenty of sources that use global warming. What is the import of taking sides? The RSs are clear that to pick sides in this rhetorical debate really does impact the reader. For example, in [“Climate Change Versus Global Warming: Who Is Susceptible to the Framing of Climate Change?”], Daniel Benjamin, Han-Hui Por, David Budescu, Environment and Behavior , September 22, 2016 write

The terms global warming (GW) and climate change (CC) invoke disparate interpretations and call attention to different aspects of the changing global climate. A GW label induces associations with temperature increases, severe weather, greater concern, human causes, and negative affect, whereas a CC label highlights changes in general weather patterns and the possibility of natural fluctuations, and boosts recollection of non-heat-related consequences like increased precipitation (Leiserowitz et al., 2014; Schuldt, Konrath, & Schwarz, 2011; Whitmarsh, 2009). Researchers have found differences in people’s beliefs, preferences, and perceptions of the phenomenon as a function of the term used. Typically, CC leads to higher reported beliefs that climate change is happening and will have serious consequences (Akerlof & Maibach, 2011; Leiserowitz et al., 2014; Schuldt et al., 2011; Villar & Krosnick, 2011; Whitmarsh, 2009).

We need both to comply with WP:NPOVTITLE.
(6)Technical note - our article already references the significant other title "climate change" in bold in the first sentence, per WP:TITLE and WP:FIRSTSENTENCE. Also the Policy on article titles says parentheses can be used for disambiguation. If I were proposing Climate change (human-caused global warming) that would be an example of disambiguation. But I'm not proposing that. Instead, I am proposing Global warming (human-caused climate change). This seems to be an exception to the parentheses rule in WP:TITLE, and the reason for doing this is to follow the sources above, follow the trend in the academic literature, following WP:NPOVTITLE and maintain the greatest possible clarity in destinguishing this article from climate change (which is climate change from any cause, at any geologic time period, and includes both cooling in addition to warming).

(7) leaving "global warming" as the first part minimizes disruption in our extensive tree of articles and long standing familiarity with this featured article

CONCLUSION - for above reasons, this article should have both phrases in its title. A bonus is it will help call attention to fact that when readers see either phrase used in other places they probably mean the same thing. Since the sources themselves distinguish between all-causes of climate change vs that from humans specifically, so should we. Hence, Global warming (human-caused climate change.

NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 17:38, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Errm, this is a joke, yes? I certainly hope so, since it makes no sense William M. Connolley (talk) 21:01, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
Ever since I arrived here in 2011 you have defended the title, but without much reasoning. I'm far too busy to spend that much time joking, or trying to whitewash a subjective opinion. Bottom line, I meant every word. If it made no sense whatsoever my guess you likely didn't try very hard. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:40, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
Well if it wasn't a joke were you making some point about my saying "... but giving articles longer titles with brackets isn't going to fix anything"? Dmcq (talk) 21:47, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
Dmcq, that sounds like an empty rhetorical question. When you spend time with my reasoning you'll see that I believe something would indeed be fixed. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:47, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
Thanks. - Can we please have a proper friendly discussion about this. Comments such as "Please don't be so silly. No" and "Errm, this is a joke, yes? I certainly hope so, since it makes no sense" are the kinds of comments that can put someone right off being a Wikipedia editor. Just for the record: opinions may vary. The point here is to discuss them and to brainstorm. Accusing others of being silly or of joking is not at all helpful. The whole topic of climate change is heated enough (at least in the United States), so can we on Wikipedia please go about our discussion in a friendly non aggressive manner? Thanks. - I agree with many of the points made by User:NewsAndEventsGuy (although I still think the current article on "climate change" needs a different title, as most people nowadays would go there to find information about the human-induced climate change and then be surprised/lost/disappointed). I don't think it's problematic to have brackets in the title if that ends up being the best solution. The most important aspects are: where does a user land who types in "global warming" into the search field? Where does he/she end if they type "climate change" into the search field? We can use redirects if needed. Where does it link to when someone mentions climate change in another Wikipedia article and adds a wikilink (in 90% of the cases they probably mean the faster human-induced version of climate change not the general concept that may include the very long-term geological timefram options). - Another example: I put "climate change denial" into Google and get 16 million hits. I put "global warming denial" into Google search and get only 5 million hits. The ratio is 3:1. In both cases the Wikipedia article comes out on top, and how is it called? "Climate change denial"! Not "global warming denial". EMsmile (talk) 04:17, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
You proposed a move to a title that's taken. That's called a malformed RM and ought to just be summarily closed. Rethink and try again, but read the comments first. Dicklyon (talk) 05:12, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
The alternative proposal on the table does not have this problem. Thus, closing would be premature. Do you have input on the alternative idea? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 14:58, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
Article titles should only be as long as needed to identify the subject. Sometimes brackets are used for standards purposes or for disambiguation but that is the exception and the disambiguation should be short and straightforward. We should not be sticking things into the title that really belong in the lead once the title is a reasonable one for the topic. I have seen this again and again people trying to write articles in the title. That is not what a title is for. It is simply to distinguish it from other articles, iit does not have to clear all doubt. The article about the country Turkey does not have a title "Turkey (country in Asia Minor rather than a large bird)". Dmcq (talk) 10:59, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
@Dmcq:, compare
Turkey and
Turkey (bird)
Here we have the general idea of climate change of whatever time period and from whatever cause, and we have what UNFCC and IPCC call "Climate change", meaning specifically antropogenic climate change. Plus research shows a different response when reader hears the fading WP:COMMONNAME "global warming" versus the ascendant commonname "climate change". The way to handle these changing common names with minimum chaos while maintaining NPOV is
Climate change where the scope covers the general phenomena, just as we have been doing all along and
Global warming (human-caused climate change where the scope is this article just as it exists right now
This matches the top scientific sources, something you and WMC are regularly arguing in favor of doing.
NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 14:58, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
Sorry for thinking you might be joking. I really couldn't tell. My objection was mostly: can you imagine having to type "Global warming (human-caused climate change)" instead of global warming? You'd never remember it. Also, think of the zillions of redirects to be fixedup. But I also dimly felt what Dmcq has said explicitly: the article names are labels, not things in themselves. People will always complain they don't exactly match what they are, but this doesn;t matter, as long as they aren't actually deceptive, and they do describe themselves clearly at the start William M. Connolley (talk) 13:49, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
@William M. Connolley:
RE A, type "global warming" and seamlessly be redirected, problem solved
RE B, All links to global warming would seamlessly redirect through the global warming redirect, and they can be like that until a wikignome cares to change them
RE C, The sources have started a broad migration toward "climate change"... that phrase is steadily displacing "global warming" as the WP:COMMONNAME. I believe we have crossed the threshold to when it is time to change. This alternative proposal will do all that with a minumum of chaos, compared to the original proposal to rename this to climate change and rename that article to something else. Given the research on how people react differently to one label or the other, the only way to be NPOV in our title is to use both.
NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 14:58, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
Well, I wasn't joking but I do admit that my proposal is probably not yet perfect. I feel that I have identified an important problem though and have suggested one possible solution. If we do at least a few more days of brainstorming (rather than closing this in a haste as a "waste of time") with hopefully many different editors voicing their opinions then perhaps we'll come up with something smart. I wonder if people agree with me that we do have a problem? The main problem in my opinion is that the current article on climate change does not contain the content that most people would expect when they think of climate change nowadays. They expect to see the whole big topic of human-made climate change, not that information on "ever since the earth existed the climate has changed etc.". That, to me is the main problem. - Dicklyon you said that the proposed new title is already taken. Yes, sorry about that. I decided to have the discussion here first, but I could have equally started a discussion on the climate change article first as I feel that one needs changing as well. - Dmcq: I understand your concerns about brackets or long titles. It's not ideal. Maybe there is a better solution. The current setup is flawed though in my opinion. Like NewsAndEventsGuy pointed out from a summary of the same discussion in 2014: "An ed recommended waiting to see how major media outlets handle the subject and another replied we should follow the academic literature." I think it is abundantly clear by now that major media outlets and hence the general public call it climate change predominantly, not global warming. I don't have evidence but I have the feeling/suspiction that research grants are also more likely to use the words "climate change" in their titles than "global warming" and hence the peer-reviewed articles that come out of the grants are also using climate change more often in their titles (can anyone verify that?). Hence, I would redirect global warming to climate change. - I care deeply about this article, I am not a kind of "fly by commentator". I only came to this article fairly recently and I am not an expert on the topic. But I did a fair bit of work on the section on "effects of global warming" and people seem to have accepted my edits, generally speaking. If people think it is a waste of time to discuss this, then please don't feel forced to take part in the discussion. I really think a week or so of brainstorming would do no harm to anyone. It could well be that the consensus is to keep everything as it is, but I really do wonder if this is the optimal solution or if we couldn't do better, i.e. giving people the information exactly where they are looking for it. EMsmile (talk) 14:17, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
Here's another thought. Recently I did some work on the article on developing countries and I learned about so many terms that apply to climate change + developing countries which again use the term "climate change" and not "global warming". These are in particular climate justice, climate adaptation, Climate Vulnerability Monitor, climate refugee. Then there is also: Effects of climate change on humans, Climate change, industry and society, Climate change and agriculture, Climate change and gender, Economic impacts of climate change, Indigenous Peoples Climate Change Assessment Initiative. Please ask yourself: why do all these terms use the word "climate" in them, not "global warming", and yet they are all referring to the human-induced climate change? It's because climate change has become synonymous to the human-induced version of it and we should acknowledge that in Wikipedia. Our current use of "climate change" in the Wikipedia article title is outdated, I think, as it's focused on the geological scale content.EMsmile (talk) 14:27, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

@NewsAndEventsGuy:: Why would there be chaos with the original proposal? And I think your suggestion only solves part of the problem but it wouldn't solve the disappointment for people who arrive at climate change and are expecting to find out information about humanity's current huge problem but instead find information about what happened to the earth millions of years ago. This is actually the disappointment I had when I first looked up this topic on Wikipedia some months ago... I went to climate change and thought "oh? why are they talking about this geological type stuff here? That's not what I want to know?". I found it startling. I agree fully with you where you said: "The sources have started a broad migration toward "climate change"... that phrase is steadily displacing "global warming" as the WP:COMMONNAME. I believe we have crossed the threshold to when it is time to change." EMsmile (talk) 15:06, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Both terms are in use. Yes climate change is more commonly used for the current global warming but both are very common. What you're asking for basically is that the title 'climate change' be transferred to this article - but there is no really alternate decent title for what's in the current climate change article so it would need a disambiguation title with brackets. And we would just use the title 'global warming' as a redirect. The current solution is we have a line at climate change under the title saying 'For current warming of the Earth's climate system due to human activities, see Global warming'. Readers are also directed to global warming in the first paragraph of the lead. Personally I feel no great need to start messing around. As to the origin of the names they have both been there for ages but there is a funny thing in that Frank Luntz advocated Republicans use climate change instead of global warming to play it down, but Trump tweeted that people advocating action on the problem had changed the name from global warming to climate change because they found global warming wasn't working for them! Another Trumpism to support the idea there is some conspiracy I guess. Dmcq (talk) 15:24, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
@EMsmile: Chaos! Times Two! If we moved climate change so this article could have that title, then each move would usually get its own redirect, so people using the old title (and the countless wikilinks in other aticles) would go to the right place. But "climate change" can not be a redirect and an article at the same time. Just doing the move without the redirect would require mass update of all the wikilinks everywhere. Chaos... maybe times three. Just changing this articles name won't solve the common problem, as you experienced, when readers looking for "global warming" arrive at "climate change" and either don't read the hatnote or don't understand it. But it would align the title here with the dominant scientific name, ascending common name, and improve neutral impact on the reader while giving reader greater understanding of the topic (highlighting that these terms mean the same thing). Neutral reader comprehension is the overall purpose here. So although it wouldn't solve the problem that inspired you to propose change, it would improve the encyclopedia. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 15:41, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
Climate Change makes the most sense to me. It's "ascending" as others have pointed out. But there are even better reasons. A neutral information source should be moving away from risky terms that invoke bias, or perception of bias. The term "Global Warming" does just that: its has evolved such that it now suggest bias. The climate deniers of the world think "Global Warming" is dirty word. Climate Change is more neutral: temperatures going both up and down, and causes being both natural and caused by humans. The argument that the change proposed would require a lot of work isn't persuasive. We are making an adjustment based on knowing the term "global warming" has been hi-jacked. It is no longer a neutral term. Climate Change is a neutral term. I say put in the time required now, knowing that even more time is going to be required later if we don't act decisively. PlanetCare (talk) 16:34, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
Pleaes re-read the comment immediately above yours... we can not move this to an existing article, for the technical reasons associate with redirects I already described. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 16:56, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
I'm sure the "technical" problems of the name change could be solved somehow if we wanted to. Technlogy regarding redirects and wikilinks shouldn't block us. There's got to be a clever solution. Maybe it would require the use of a bot, I don't know. First we'd have to come up with a suitable new name for the current "cimate change" article. Or ponder over whether a disambiguation page for climate change would be helpful. - Interesting what Trump said (Dmcq). I wasn't aware of that. It's actually supporting my assertion and also that of PlanetCare that a shift has taken place. He's got the reason wrong: it's not because "it's not working for us", it's because that's just how the media and the public refers to the issue now. - Nobody has yet commented on my argument that all those composite terms use "climate", not "global warming", e.g. climate justice, climate vulnerability etc. I thought that's a fairly strong argument for the change? EMsmile (talk) 02:31, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
Is the proposed name change a preparation for the time when the globe stops warming? If the Piers Corbyn theory is correct, this may happen quite soon. Mock wurzel soup (talk) 10:29, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
No it's not. It's proposed for the reasons described above. Nothing "hidden" about my reasoning. - Here is another option for the new title of the current article called climate change. It could become Geological climate change. This has the advantage of brevity and no need for brackets, unlike previous proposals. EMsmile (talk) 13:15, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
That makes sense. Change Climate change to Geological climate change and change Global warming to Anthropogenic climate change. Mock wurzel soup (talk) 13:36, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
@EMsmile, (A) Suggest you read this and (B) as explained at Climate change#Causes there are many different ways climate can change. Saying "geological climate change" might mean one thing to you but to a newbie it will probably suggest causes due to geological processes and they won't realize there are other ways also.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:49, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
Who is baiting whom? Mock wurzel soup (talk) 13:59, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
Moving on to point (B), are you seriously suggesting that there are some people who have never heard of man-made climate change? Mock wurzel soup (talk) 14:37, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
Why were two articles created in the first place? I assume that one is about man-made climate change and the other is about non-man-made climate change. Have I misunderstood this? Mock wurzel soup (talk) 15:01, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
Two articles were created because there are two distinct topics. Dmcq (talk) 18:15, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Faulty premise: what's quoted at the top misses out an important qualifier: the 1992 articles of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (Article 1) gives DEFINITIONS For the purposes of this convention [bold added] In Sec 2 " 'Climate change' means a change of climate which is attributed directly or indirectly to human activity that alters the composition of the global atmosphere and which is in addition to natural climate variability observed over comparable time periods."
    Not for all time and all purposes, but for the specific purposes of the convention, they use "climate variability" for any other forcing – but that's just a redirect to climate change, and hasn't come into general usage. As the UNFCCC explains under Definitions of climate change, their usage differs from the usage in the IPCC.
    In fact the UNFCCC seem content to adopt the term global warming: in Climate Change: Impacts, Vulnerabilities and Adaptation in Developing Countries they say "The Fourth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC 2007) dispelled many uncertainties about climate change. Warming of the climate system is now unequivocal. It is now clear that global warming is mostly due to man-made emissions of greenhouse gases (mostly CO2)." . . . dave souza, talk 14:39, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
  • IPCC definition from AR5 glossary " Global warming
    Global warming refers to the gradual increase, observed or projected, in global surface temperature, as one of the consequences of radiative forcing caused by anthropogenic emissions. {WGIII}"
    – the phrase also appears elsewhere in the various reports; for example, in the SPM there are couple of references to global warming, above or with respect to pre-industrial temperatures. . . dave souza, talk 15:56, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
Thanks Dave, I had not inventoried all docs from AR5 and was not aware that some of them did define "global warming" in the glossary. That was my biggest bullet in this argument, so we're back to the subjective attitude "has the balance shifted in terms of WP:COMMONNAME. Being mostly subjective I have little expectation there will be consensus to change the names of these articles. Double gold star for being one of the few (only?) commenter to base their answer on WP:Reliable sources! NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:44, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Rename Proposal Alternative C[edit]

How about we do it like this: We don't only rename the article "global warming" to "climate change" but we rework it so that it does include a small section on the "geological time frame cliamte change". This could be at the start or at the end. We very briefly describe it in a paragraph but then we send people to the right sub-article to find out more. That means anyone who wants to know more about the geological time frame climate change has a brief information here (at "climate change") but for more they click through. The click to the sub-article then leads them to an article called Climate change in geological time frames - or in fact maybe it could simply lead to this existing one?: Paleoclimatology. To make it really clear there could even be a hatnote which says: "This article is mainly about current warming of the Earth's climate system due to human activities. For the study of past climate change, see Paleoclimatology." It would not be very hard to rework the existing climate change article by keeping a fair bit of what's there (like the section on physical evidence) and merging it with the content that would come across from global warming. - Here is another idea: could the existing climate change article be renamed to Climate change science as it is providing us with some of the basics that could apply to any type of climate change, e.g. take a look at the section on physical evidence and you'll see what I mean. Or Climate change fundamentals? Both these proposed new titles would free up the "climate change" title and the modified content coming from "global warming" could take its place. EMsmile (talk) 00:17, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Oppose the current structure is coherent and doesn't need changing William M. Connolley (talk) 06:43, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose Unfortunately Paleoclimatology covers a much longer period than the climate change article, and the climate change article icovers the Quaternary which is much more relevant to global warming. I don't believe the two articles can be properly stuck together. It would be a bit like sticking human anatomy into veterinary science. Yeah we're mammals but... Dmcq (talk) 08:00, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose (A) The existing hatnote at Global warming seems perfectly adequate; (B) Many RSs distinguish human from non-human climate change, but I have yet to see any call the latter "geological time frame climate change"; (C) "Geological time frames" are vastly longer than some of the natural climate change mechnanisms already in the current CC article, e.g., see the examples listed under Climate_change#Ocean-atmosphere_variability; (D) the current scope of climate change is independent of time. It uses examples from the past sure, but its talking about the principle in general. So the scope of the current climate change, by use of examples, does overlap with paleoclimatology but they aren't the same thing at all; (E) "climate change science" sounds like an article about how people go about doing the reserach; (F) "climate change fundamentals" implies that's the basic article and this is the detailed article, but that's not true at all. One is the general principle independent of time, and the other is the current episode of human-caused global warming/climate change. It's also not true that "Climate change" is the "For dummies" article. Its a full article at the top of an article tree on a complex subject.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 11:49, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
William M. Connolley: The current structure is not coherent. When you look at the many sub-articles, it's a complete mixture of terms used, and more likely climate change is used than global warming. See my arguments raised above. Nobody has yet come back with a decent counter argument on the numours examples I have given above that climate change is replacing global warming as the main term used for anything in relationship to the human induced climate change. I repeat one of my main points: Why do we speak of climate change adaptation and climate change mitigation and not global warming adaptation and global warming mitigation? - It seems that any proposal I make is opposed (by some) because it would change the status quo or because it would be too messy/complicated to implement. I know some of you don't think this needs changing. But could others who can see the problem that I am seeing please assist in coming up with workable solutions instead of just opposing any option that I float? NewsAndEventsGuy also made some suggestions but they were objected to because of his use of brackets and longer article title. - The article has nearly 2000 people watching it. How can it be that only about half a dozen people care to state their opinion on this? EMsmile (talk) 13:47, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
We only need one article. Climate change is climate change. It has been happening since the earth was formed and it has many causes. The human contribution is miniscule so why single it out for special treatment? Mock wurzel soup (talk) 17:30, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
This is nonsense. The current climate change is different and therefore a different subject. Only market fundamentalist crackpots disagree, and they do not count since the few among them who are climatologists are a tiny minority in the field. --Hob Gadling (talk) 18:47, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Rather than inventory participants to make sure we all meet the technical requirements of "DS awareness", I'd just like to mention that WP:ARBCC does apply here. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:29, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Are you threatening me with a topic ban? Mock wurzel soup (talk) 20:06, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
Perhaps you should try and look at WP:5P. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia. The contents of the articles are based on notable topics and should be written with a neutral point of view. There is an enormous amount of scientific research now on climate change. That you believe it is nonsense is your opinion and doesn't count. And as to the idea about the sun's influence is has been investigated and it is simply nowhere near large enough, see Solar activity and climate. Wikipedia is not a forum, see WP:NOTFORUM. Dmcq (talk) 20:25, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
Goodbye. Mock wurzel soup (talk) 20:30, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose – global warming covers the topic of this article, "climate change" is broader, and is in common use for preceding changes. These are both common terms, in use for the respective aspects of this topic. . . . dave souza, talk 12:40, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Rename Proposal Alternative D[edit]

There is a template called "Global warming and climate change" - This might be a wild idea: But could this be a suitable new article name Global warming and climate change? If we look at the template we can see what such an article would cover if it was a really high level overview article:

I see so much overlap in the two articles (global warming, climate change), e.g. with respect to causes and physical evicence, or effects. EMsmile (talk) 14:27, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

The template topics look a lot like this articles' TOC already, and since you clearly want to move [{Climate change]] but said nothing about that article, I infer this section has a partial thought, to which I am unprepared to give much a reply. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:37, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean, User:NewsAndEventsGuy? What is a "partial thought"? It occured to me that the topic "global warming" could benefit from being renamed to Global warming and climate change or to climate change and global warming, which is not so dissimilar to your suggestion above as Option B where you had proposed Global warming (human-caused climate change). My proposal is shorter and has no need for brackets. EMsmile (talk) 08:39, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
Since your Proposal A (above) is still open, maybe you could elaborate on how this new Proposal D would interact with Proposal A? Would "Climate change" article still be called "Climate Change" under Proposal D? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:42, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
My Proposal D would mean that "global warming" is changed to Climate change and global warming (or: Global warming and climate change) and the article Climate change would not be changed in title, at least not for now. You never know in which directions the discourse will develop. Perhaps in a few years the term "global warming" really is completely out, and the term climate change is 100% meant to mean our current climate change problems. That's actually my prediction but of course I could be wrong. So for now renaming to climate change and global warming (or: Global warming and climate change, and leavingt the existing climate change article title unchanged might be a good solution which others might support?
  • Opposed EMsmile says they got started on this by arriving at climate change and expecting this article. The hatnote at that article either was not noticed or not understood, but however it transpired, the experience was enough to launch us on this discussion. I'm thinking the better solution is work on the lead of the other article. I may do some of that later in the year when I will have some more time. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:51, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
NewsAndEventsGuy: does that mean you are no longer supporting your Proposal B? I would have thought you'd like my Proposal D because it is nearly identical with your Proposal B. EMsmile (talk) 01:33, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
Also I am still awaiting a response from anyone on my argument: There are all those composite terms use "climate", not "global warming", e.g. climate justice, climate vulnerability etc. I thought that's a fairly strong argument for the change? As I said above (but nobody has reacted to that so I am repeating it here): There are so many terms that apply to climate change + developing countries which again use the term "climate change" and not "global warming". These are in particular climate justice, climate adaptation, Climate Vulnerability Monitor, climate refugee. Then there is also: Effects of climate change on humans, Climate change, industry and society, Climate change and agriculture, Climate change and gender, Economic impacts of climate change, Indigenous Peoples Climate Change Assessment Initiative. Please ask yourself: why do all these terms use the word "climate" in them, not "global warming", and yet they are all referring to the human-induced climate change? It's because climate change has become synonymous to the human-induced version of it and we should acknowledge that in Wikipedia. Our current use of "climate change" in the Wikipedia article title is outdated, I think, as it's focused on the geological scale content. - It would be great if we could also hear from other editors who haven't commented yet. After all, there are 2000 people watching the page, surely some of them would have some opinions to put forward? EMsmile (talk) 01:37, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
And I agree with User:NewsAndEventsGuy that the lead of the other article needs work, but not only the lead, even the article itself (it only has a B level quality so that tells us something, too!). I think that kind of work ought to be discussed on that article's talk page though, not here. That's why I started the discussion here. EMsmile (talk) 01:56, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Piers Corbyn discussion[edit]

As stated in Wikipedia's talk page guidelines, "Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject."
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

As a matter of interest do you take what Piers Corbyn says seriously? If so what is it about what he says that tips a scale for you? Thanks. Dmcq (talk) 18:15, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

I just had a look with Google for "geological climate change" in quotes and the phrase does occur a small but reasonable number of times and seems to be used for what the climate change article covers. Titles do not have to be absolutely unambiguous so nobody can misinterpret them even though they try. They just have to be reasonably common names for the topic. Dmcq (talk) 18:15, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
To Dmcq:You would probably regard me as a climate change denier although I don't deny that climate change is happening and I don't deny that carbon dioxide contributes to it. However, I believe the contribution from man-made CO2 is negligible because it is only about 3% of the total so cutting out our 3% will make no measurable difference. I have several other objections to the CO2 theory but I am not writing an essay on this talk page. I accept that climate change is happening so, as I reject the CO2 theory, I have to look for an alternative explanation and the Piers Corbyn sunspot theory is the one I find most convincing. I do not claim to know what causes climate change - it is a combination of many factors. As a scientist, I don't know anything. I just look at the evidence and make a judgement. People who claim to know that CO2 is the main cause of climate change are taking a religious view, not a scientific one. Mock wurzel soup (talk) 19:01, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
I don't know where you get your 3% from or what it means. I know many people who claim to read the future in peoples hands actually believe they have some power rather than consciously being charlatans and I think Piers Corbyn may be like that. Dmcq (talk) 20:48, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── This line of reasoning has always struck me as hilarious, but then I can compare the mass of the human body to the amount of sarin needed to kill and see that minute amounts can indeed have major effects. For a funner example, try tequila NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:57, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm not going to continue this discussion because you are not taking it seriously. Mock wurzel soup (talk) 22:51, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
I think your view certainly does qualify as a rejection of science but I am interested in seeing how people came to views like yours, Piers Corbyn seems a pretty straightforward example of a snake oil salesman to me. I am sorry that NewsAndEventsGuy sees fit to just make fun of you. Dmcq (talk) 23:52, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
I made fun of the line of reasoning at play, and in any case there is no article improvement suggestion in this thread so it should shut down per WP:FORUM NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 02:03, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
By the way, we have Question 5 at the top of this article which addresses this, please scroll up: "Q5: Can't the increase of CO2 be from natural sources, like volcanoes or the oceans?". Dmcq: whilst I agree with you that it would be really interesting to understand how people form such views (same with "how can someone possible not believe that Neil Amrstrong landed on the moon!? See Moon landing conspiracy theories), I think your questions to User:Mock wurzel soup are not well placed on this talk page. Why don't you rather take this to a direct discussion with him or her? Perhaps on his or her talk page or even with Wikipedia e-mail? Then you kind find out directly from him or her but it wouldn't clog up this talk page which is not where it belongs. EMsmile (talk) 00:03, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
Agree, general discussion should happen at user talk, per the WP:TPG this space is only for discussion tangible ideas of article improvement. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 02:03, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Moving the terminology section to the start of the article?[edit]

Given how important terminology is, I would like to move the terminology section to the start of the article (note it is also at the start of the climate change article). If there are no major objections within a week, I'd go ahead with it. EMsmile (talk) 14:13, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

I'd rather see someone other than me remove most of the the global warming/climate change terminology discussion out of both articles and use it to create a new subarticle on that subtopic. Then put an identical sentence, at most two, (along with an RS or two) in both Climate change and global warming, with a wikilink for Main|(new article). NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:47, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
I disagree with your assessment of the importance of the T section. But anyway, oppose this kind of fiddling until the fuss over the page moves has died down William M. Connolley (talk) 21:03, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
I am inclined to think terminology is important. But I would concur with William to throttle back on some of the fiddling. Let the dust settle a bit. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:34, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
what is your definition of "fiddling" here? There are all sorts of things that could be called "fiddling". I think many wikipedia articles start off with a terminology section so I don't think it's a big deal if this article also started with terminology. And yes, the terminology section under "climate change" and that under "global warming" should probably be fairly similar. In that case, I agree with NewsAndEventsGuy that a spin-off article could be created for it (however: wouldn't it be too short for a full article?). It could be that it might exist already in the myriad of sub-articles that we have on the topic of climate change already. EMsmile (talk) 08:42, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
To me "fiddling" is a genteel way of saying when a conceptual consensus is being debated its disrespectful to try to edit your side of the debate into the text. See WP:CONSENSUS NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:49, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification which I understand. However, moving the terminology to the start is something that I would have proposed anyhow, whether we rename the article or not. It is common with Wikipedia articles that issues about terminology are dealt with at the start of the article. We from WikiProject Sanitation have this recommended in our Manual of Style, see here. I know that's only a small project but perhaps other more relevant WikiProjects are saying the same thing in their style guides? Does anyone know? EMsmile (talk) 15:33, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
Trouble is, the Terminology section is a very long-winded and rather out-of-date history of the terminology, not a concise current definition. Not sure if it justifies a separate article, but the idea of one unified history with brief summary-style sections near the start of the articles is good – or we could have and expanded History of terminology section in one article, linked from the other, and a concise section either headed Definitions or Terminology about current usage, based of course on secondary sources. . . . dave souza, talk 15:36, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with you. To move this in the right direction, I have now added a standard heading called "History". That existing section on "terminology" is currently really a history of the terminolog so it fits under history and can stay at the end of the article. But yes, having a Definitions or Terminology about current usage woud be good and that should then be at the start of the article in my opinion. For this history section that I have just created, a copied a few key sentence across from the lead of the sub-article (History of climate change science). Because I took the sentences from the lead there are no references included yet. The references must be in the main body of the article. Perhaps someone who is more deeply into the topic could quickly identify which of the sources used in History of climate change science should be copied across to this new history section (or perhaps some of the sources already cited in the article could equally well serve as sources for these statements about the historical development about global warming. Note that whilst the article is termed "History of climate change science" it is mostly about human-induced climate change, although I think it does a good job at pointing the light briefly also at the climate change prior to the 18th century. EMsmile (talk) 14:00, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Import of first paragraph with no citations from History of Climate Change Science article[edit]

In this series of edits EMsmile imported, more or less, the first paragraph of the lead from the History of climate change science. The main edit summary in the series says in part " The aim is not to expand on the history here but to give the reader a very quick "taste" and then point them to the other article." That's fine, however, see WP:LEADCITE. In the other article, the lead has to summarize the body of the article and may do so without citations though citations are recommended for anything likely to be challenged. In this case, the other article's lead lacks citations and that's OK..... in the lead of the other article. The instant you import that text to the body of some other article, WP:Verification through citation to RSs is required. At present this text you imported lacks references. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:42, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I am aware of this problem. That's exactly what I had written just above where I said this still needs to be done, and those who are more deeply into the topic could probably easily select the right references from the other article. I actually started by copying the reference by Spencer (Spencer Weart (2011). "Changing Sun, Changing Climate". The Discovery of Global Warming.) but then I realised this reference is already included but with a different year and it looks just like a website so I was wondering if it's actually a reliable source, but it's cited a few times. EMsmile (talk) 15:26, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
Spencer R. Weart is a recognised historian of science with a background as a physicist, and his Harvard University Press book The Discovery of Global Warming is online in an updated and expanded version, on the Website of the Center for History of Physics of the American Institute of Physics. Yes, it's a reliable source. . . dave souza, talk 16:37, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
Great, that's good to know. Could you help with deciding which part of that book to cite where exactly? I noticed that in History of climate change science and in global warming his book is cited in different ways, e.g. with different publishing years. Perhaps there are several editions available? Let's pick the latest edition and then cite exactly the page (?) or at least the correct chapter? I could have a stab at it but would take me ages to figure this out precisely - therefore, I am hoping that someone who is more into the topic knows exactly which part of his book to cite where (I could do the same if it was a sanitation topic but I am not from the climate change field; just an interested member of the public, really). EMsmile (talk) 07:11, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Definition clarified in lead[edit]

As discussed at length above, I've now clarified the definition in line with the AR5 glossary definition and the more recent NASA article on the alternative terms, with technical meanings which differ. Have also noted earlier periods of global warming in interglacials and the PETM, per AR5. Some tidying of references may be needed, but it's time for tea. . . dave souza, talk 20:00, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

I've reverted so we can discuss proposed alternative text on talk. We did that through multiple version during a blizzard of discussion June-July 2014. The chronology of archived threads is listed at the beginning of the last installment in the edits series. On the substance of this change, I strongly believe we should continue to use the common lay meaning of the words, so as to make an engaging and accessible article to people with next to zero science education. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:09, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
I agree that the lead is not the right place to put something with relatively complex technical wording. If anything I'd like to see more information about the "common use" of the term (which references to go with that? Would it be OK to e.g. cite some BBC news articles that use "climate change" for "global warming"?). But how about we put what dave souza had proposed into the new "terminology" or "definitions" section that should go at the start of the article? The existing terminology section is now under "history" which is where it belongs because it is mostly about the historical development of the terms. If there is anything there that talks about the current terminology then that can be moved to the new terminology section as well. EMsmile (talk) 14:13, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
Will come back to this with proposed alternatives, accept the point that it's good to make the article accessible to lay people – the IPCC is trying to do just that. Trouble with the current intro is that it's flatly misleading: Global warming isn't "also referred to as climate change", it is one specific form of climate change – see the NASA articles I cited at Talk:Climate change#“Climate change” and “global warming” have distinct meanings. Conflating the meanings or confining both to the current anthropogenic warming confuses rather than informs. Will aim to come back to this in about a week to think about the bast way forward, agree that a section on current definitions could help. . . dave souza, talk 17:06, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
Sounds good, thanks for the future effort.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:01, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Another approach, after review of the sources and drafting a couple of options. Discussion of the current context commonly equates climate change to warming of the climate system, but we should be clearer that climate change also includes earlier changes. I think it works to keep the start of the lead the same, but amend the end of the first paragraph to explain "proxy records covering" as "proxy records of climate change over...":
    Many of the observed changes since the 1950s are unprecedented in the instrumental temperature record, which extends back to the mid-19th century, and in paleoclimate proxy records of climate change over thousands of years.
    [source: SPM page=4 "evidence of climate change based on many independent scientific analyses from observations of the climate system, paleoclimate archives .... Warming of the climate system is unequivocal, and since the 1950s, many of the observed changes are unprecedented over decades to millennia.]
    @ NAEG, this keeps the June-July 2014 much discussed consensus to base the opening paragraph on common usage of the terms rather than tech usage, while concisely referring and linking to the wider usage of climate change at the end of the paragraph. I've no problem with this change being reverted if further discussion is needed. . . dave souza, talk 19:34, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Work in progress...[edit]

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── still needs work. Back in March 2017 the sentence was changed to say the "unprecedented changes" are "in" the instrumental or proxy temp records. I missed this at the time, but that's not true strictly speaking. The Instrumental Temperature Record has no data for permafrost extent, for example. I'll try to think about this when I have more time.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 16:51, 21 June 2018 (UTC)


Global warming, also referred to as climate change, is the observed century-scale rise in the average temperature of the Earth's climate system and its related effects. Multiple lines of scientific evidence show that the climate system is warming. In the instrumental temperature record at Earth's surface, recent decades are the warmest since these records began in the mid-19th century. Historical records and paleoclimate proxy records of climate change show that many of the observed changes since the 1950s are unprecedented over thousands of years.

Possible additional sentence:
In the Northern Hemisphere, recent warming has has reversed long-term cooling trends of the past 5000 years which persisted until the 19th century.
Source: AR5 Chapter 5 p. 386. Maybe a comma needed; "past 5,000 years". . dave souza, talk 08:12, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

"could" threaten?[edit]

Hi, first off thanks a million to all who have worked on this article. It is a wonderful and essential resource!

"Ocean acidification could threaten coral reefs, fisheries, protected species, and other natural resources of value to society." Shouldn't this read "Ocean acidification *threatens* coral reefs, fisheries, protected species, and other natural resources of value to society." or at least separate the potential threats from the confirmed threats (coral reefs...)? -- Phenylalanine (talk) 16:29, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the thanks! It's a good point, so I've made it "threatens damage to" which is more explicit. . dave souza, talk 16:34, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
To my ear "threatens" implies the potential for damage, not necessarily that damage is occurring. More accurate would be "is damaging" or similar wording. Details here. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 19:16, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
How about both? The RS Boris posted contains plenty of material to support both "is damaging" as well as future threats NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:27, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Question about external links[edit]

I am not a fan of long external links lists as you might end up with so many links to people's favourite youtube videos or lectures that newcomers/laypersons get completely overwhelmed. I think we really ought to just link to the main, most authorative places. To this end, I wonder if we really need this external link?: "Climate change tutorial by Prof. Myles Allen (Oxford), March 2018: Parts 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 (45 min. total); background & slide deck" I would be inclined to remove it. By the way, he doesn't talk about global warming at all but human-induced climate change. This might have been the best new title when we had the renaming discussion for this article which I "lost". EMsmile (talk) 15:23, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

AP 2018 style book terms global warming and climate change[edit]

FYI 2018 AP stylebook is out and behind a paywall. There are are various non-RS comments circulating (example) that report this version of the playbook says "global warming" and "climate change" may be used interchangeably. Does anyone have access to the real McCoy? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:00, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 June 2018[edit] (talk) 13:06, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Kpgjhpjm 13:10, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

New name for article[edit]

I propose that the name of the article "Global warming" which has political inferences, should be renamed "Anthropogenic climate change" because it is more scientifically accurate and less politically charged. "Global warming" doesn't emphasise that it is anthropogenic, i.e. caused by humans, which is the underlying cause. And "warming" discounts the extreme cold that is also experienced. In other words, the current name of the title "Global warming" is just scientifically inaccurate and sounds more like a political gimmick, distinct from any serious academic literature. I thus propose a name change! 2001:8003:6A23:2C00:4FE:8627:D23F:86B2 (talk) 20:23, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

To just prove my point, if you look at the FAQ at the top of this article, observe a simple e.g. of a Q. "A2: Consensus is not the same as unanimity, the latter of which is impractical for large groups. Roughly 97% of publishing climate scientists agree on anthropogenic climate change.[2]" What do you observe? Any time literature is being quoted, there is no reference to "global warming". It is always to "anthropogenic climate change". Wikipedia is not the Daily Mail - it is serious academic literature and as such should use the proper scientific terms 2001:8003:6A23:2C00:4FE:8627:D23F:86B2 (talk) 20:26, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
See WP:TITLE. The name of an article is preferably the common name, not some name to exactly specify the topic. It is the purpose of the start of the lead to identify the topic. We try not to write the article in the title. Dmcq (talk) 21:40, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
Please read the WP:Talk page guidelines which advise that before you start a new thread you should read the talk page to see if there already is one. In this case, we just had this debate (see thread titled Talk:Global_warming#Requested_move_3_June_2018) and you have not added any new reasoning, just a rehash of what was said before. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:33, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
mate instead of being rude and spitting out rules, if you read what OP said it was not change of name to Climate change but to Anthropogenic climate change which was not discussed in the thread that you listed (talk) 02:05, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
Maybe, but your looking at the wrapper instead of the substance . The substance is this - like the prior thread, this one is almost entirely based on an editor's opinion as to what is "scientifically accurate and less politically charged". When there are sufficient citations to reliable sources to support a name change, or compelling new logical analysis of existing ones, then we will be having a new conversation instead of an opinion-based rehash. As it happens, I don't like the title either. But I haven't been able to marshal the sources and logic to win consensus on that point. You can be rude at me (by assuming I'm commenting in bad faith) or you can try to help build consensus with logical analysis of reliable sources. I'd prefer the latter. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 11:41, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
I agree that it's technically a more accurate title but I'm on the fence about a name change. My thought is that the lay reader is not going to know what Anthropogenic climate change means without an explanation. As such I am opposed to the proposed change. Rap Chart Mike (talk) 12:29, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
While I also like "anthropogenic climate change", I have the same impression. Opposition to title change per WP:COMMONNAME is a policy-based argument, it would be difficult to convince a "discussion closer" (who assesses consensus) with other preference or technical arguments. The precedents demonstrate that starting another title change debate would be a waste of everyone's time. —PaleoNeonate – 12:40, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
How about we add, "or more technically as anthropogenic climate change"? That seems like a resonable middle ground to me. Rap Chart Mike (talk) 13:28, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
This thread is proposing a change of title, but your idea Rap Chart Mike, sounds like you might be looking at the first line of text instead of the title. Please clarify. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:42, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
I was replying to this diff which seems to have been moved. Rap Chart Mike (talk) 13:49, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
Oh right. I moved a newbie's problematic post to user talk. Sorry about breaking the context. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 15:20, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
I added it to the lead, we'll see if it sticks... —PaleoNeonate – 14:22, 13 July 2018 (UTC)