Talk:Golden Horseshoe

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Haldimand and Norfolk[edit]

Should we mention that Haldimand and Norfolk would also be considered part or potentially part of the Golden Horseshoe in common usage? Samaritan 04:23, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Origin of "Golden"[edit]

The term predates space flight. A more likely attribution for "golden" is the region's wealth and role as the economic engine of Canada. With the consent of other readers I would like to revise this.

The Canadian Oxford Dictionary attributes the "golden" to wealth. What better authority? Go ahead and change it.--BrentS 03:56, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I always thought it was called "golden" because the land was fertile for growing things... and, for example wheat grows golden coloured. could be wrong.SECProto 16:36, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
Corn is golden, and its history in Ontario dates back to 1615.[1] That said, I prefer the "economic" angle (which encompasses agricultural, industrial, and commercial). -- Robocoder (talk | contribs) 06:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Northumberland[edit]

In there latest report the Gov of Ontario added Northumberland to the Greater Golden Horseshoe so I believe it should be added to the map, etc here.Copper12 03:00, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You're absolutely right about Northumberland County being part of the Greater Golden Horseshoe in the recent February publications. Brantford/Brant County and Haldimand County are included too, but not Norfolk. Feel free to add them when you update the map. (I moved this message to maintain chronologic order) --NormanEinstein 21:06, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I've updated the map. IceKarma 14:44, 2005 Apr 10 (UTC)

objection[edit]

"pedestrian friendly, green and safe city." OK, Toronto is safe, and maybe even green, but it certainly isn't pedestrian frieldny... this reads like something city officials wrote, not encyclopedia content. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.191.58.2 (talk) 21:54, 1 February 2007 (UTC).

map?[edit]

Does anyone know why the map was deleted? If someone who made the original is reading this, can you re-upload? If not, can anyone make a new one? --qviri 05:17, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

The map was deleted on 8 October 2005 in accordance with Wikipedia image policy because it had no source information. I have no useful source information for the image either, so I've left User:Bearcat a message asking for such. If he can provide it, I'll be happy to undelete the map. IceKarma 06:54, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
The map was created originally by Earl Andrew and is apparently GFDL, so I've reuploaded it (good thing I'm a packrat, eh) and annotated it thus. IceKarma 10:35, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Earl Andrew responded that he derived the original map from a government source and uploaded it as PD-self. Bearcat's derivative work is GFDL. IceKarma 21:02, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Do we really need the (Ontario) in the name?[edit]

Seeing as Golden Horseshoe redirects here anyway, and I am not aware of any other geographical region bearing the same name, how about moving this page to just Golden Horseshoe? --Qviri 03:05, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I'd support a move back to Golden Horseshoe, but we'd need to find an admin to do it. I believe User:BrentS moved the article not because of disambiguation concerns, but because he feels all geographic article titles should include a geographic reference. --NormanEinstein 16:42, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

population rank[edit]

If using combined metropolitan areas, the population of the Golden Horseshoe is still below that of the Baltimore-Washington CSA. It might be on par with the San Francisco-San Jose CSA. It could rank anywhere between 6th and 8th. It's probably better to make rankings more fuzzy, e.g. "among the ten largest conurbations in North America". Polaron | Talk 23:22, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

The Golden Horseshoe *is* a combined metropolitan area (consists of five CMAs). If you're going to put a comparison, you should compare it to other combined metropolitan areas. Polaron | Talk 01:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

IF the golden horseshoe includes Buffalo, New York, it reaches well over 9.5 million. However I would find more sources before I write this on the article. Glad to hear thoughts about it.

I did find this one


  1. NYC
  2. Mexico City
  3. LA
  4. Chicago
  5. Washington-Baltimore (8.03 million in 2004 growing at 1.6%)
  6. San Francisco Bay Area (7.16 million in 2004 growing at 0.2%)
  7. Extended Golden Horseshoe (7.04 million in 2004 growing at 1.7%)

By 2006, the Golden Horseshoe should have overtaken the Bay Area so it would be sixth

With Buffalo: 1 NYC 2 LA (Mexico City may or may not be included) 3 Golden Horseshoe (9.7 million) 4 Wash-Balt


Population Forecasts[edit]

I removed the following text from the article:

with an estimated population of 7,400,000[citation needed] as of early 2006. Of these people, 5,857,550 (July 1, 2006 est.) live in the Greater Toronto Area.[1]

because:

  1. I couldn't find a source for the 7.4M estimate (likely some interpolation from one of the cited population growth forecasts...in which case, it might be considered original research)
  2. without support for this claim, the GTA population has no context
  3. There is disagreement on the forecasting methods used (StatsCan vs PIR vs ...)[2]

I recommend waiting until the preliminary census of the population numbers are released in early 2007. -- Robocoder (talk | contribs) 20:18, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Western New York in the Golden Horseshoe[edit]

While I appreciate that a reference was found for the claim that Buffalo is part of the Golden Horseshoe, it is but one reference. I've looked for others, and haven't found any yet. For a claim like " Some consider the Buffalo, New York region to be part of the Golden Horseshoe", there needs to be more than a solitary unpublished, unreferenced paper on the subject. Wikipedia doesn't accept original research. Since the paper was part of a presentation about a Political Economy of Scale, there's a chance that someone has cited that paper, or used it as part of further research, which would lend the definition more credence. As it stands right now, it is one person's definition, and insufficient for inclusion. I welcome comments about this, though. Mindmatrix 15:48, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I will gladly find another source like this one [2] 72.136.209.73 22:16, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Lets analyze what that source says:
  • expressways surrounding Lake Ontario have become congested, in particular, those that serve the Golden Horseshoe between Toronto and Buffalo
So, all it is saying is that the highways between Buffalo and Toronto are congested, and that these highways are in the Golden Horseshoe; this does not say that Buffalo is in the Golden Horseshoe.
  • the development of an increased level of industrial, social and cultural interaction between the economies of Southern Ontario and northwest New York state
  • improve the City's access to markets in New York and the eastern U.S. and increase opportunities for international tourism
  • Ferry service would effectively establish a new boarder crossing at the base of the City and would thereby increase our access to the business and tourism markets in upper New York state and along the eastern United States.
These say that the two regions have economic ties, but there is no mention of western New York being a part of the Golden Horseshoe.
  • that the demographic and attitudinal profile of people within the Ontario/New York travel corridor can support an automobile/passenger ferry service between the Toronto and Rochester areas as measured by current and induced demand
This just says that people in each region visit the other. So, I've covered all mentions of New York and Buffalo in that article, and not one actually states that either is part of the Golden Horseshoe. We still have only one source that makes any such claim, and it is an unreferenced source with no peer review, as I stated earlier.
Also, there are no citations for inclusion of London, or any regions near it. The province has only recently defined the Extended Greater Golden Horseshoe, which barely stretches to the KW area. You will need to provide reliable, peer-reviewed sources for this too. Mindmatrix 16:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


1. I never claimed that London is in the GH, I merely stated that the 2 were highly intersperced. 2. To say that KW is not in it is an opinion by you, not the provinces definition. 3. I can find more and more sources if that will change your decisions. By the way, it is commonly included anyway in regular discussions, but that is opinion, and I will not include that 72.136.209.73 22:03, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Another source [3] including: "While New York City and Toronto have prospered in the recent decade as part of an increasing global economy, the common border of Niagara that serves as the interface for much of the binational economic interaction has not been fully successful in that role nor shared in the new prosperity. Opportunity is evident. While the metropolitan New York City area is the largest in North American population, the "Golden Horseshoe" of the Toronto area and upstate New York, including the Erie-Niagara Region, is the third largest area and has clear global name recognition." 72.136.209.73 22:16, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Niagara is NOT part of the outer Golden Horseshoe[edit]

Niagara is not part of the Outer Golden Horseshoe (and no, Hamilton is not GTA), regardless of what McGunity and his minions in Toronto may think. To back this argument:

  • Niagara has -always- been a part of the Golden Horseshoe, even before the creation of the Extended Golden Horseshoe.
  • The urban area of the Golden Horseshoe exists from Niagara Falls to Oshawa - albeit that the 'urban' area between St. Catharines and Hamilton is very narrow and close to the QEW, it is far from rural.
  • A number of urban development centres are defined within the Niagara Region (St. Catharines brownfield, Niagara Falls-Fort Erie) along with the GTA and Hamilton portions of the inner ring.
  • Niagara's economic ties with the rest of the region are much stronger than the extended portion, to the point where the MTO lumps Niagara in as part of the GTA for transit and traffic purposes.
  • Portions of Niagara exist -within- the GTA greenbelt.

Unless someone can come up with an explanation better than a single PDF file to throw away decades of history and economic development, the current format broken into three sections should remain. Snickerdo 02:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

In the absence of other official references, if we create our own groupings, that is original research. I think to alleviate this conflict, why don't we just list all the census divisions alphabetically without grouping them into inner and outer rings? --Polaron | Talk 02:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
That is an acceptable compromise. Still, as one of my friends puts it, "If it weren't for Niagara, the Golden Horseshoe wouldn't exist." This isn't original research - it's an historical term, of which Niagara has always been at the core along with Hamilton, Toronto and Oshawa. Snickerdo 02:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you since the original Census Region did include Niagara. I'm just trying to make sure what is stated in the article is verifiable and not original research. For that, we need citations and references. In any case, I'll leave it as it is now since I actually do think Niagara should be in the inner ring. --Polaron | Talk 02:50, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

anti New York sentiment?[edit]

I dont understand the anti New York sentiment on various wikipedia articles about the GGH. Western New York is part of the GGH. It is bi national . Heres a Canadian source that says so [3]. --eLeigh33 23:43, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

NPOV and "Golden Triangle"[edit]

"It is an extremely pedestrian friendly, green and safe city."

"And the streets are always clean, and the girls are prettier than anywhere else in Canada. In fact, Toronto really is the greatest city on earth and loved by all, despite the lies people in Calgary tell you."

Seriously, some of this stuff is horribly op-ed in nature and needs to be cleaned up.

Also, should perhaps some note by made that this Golden Horseshoe is in fact one of the pillars of the so-called "Golden Triangle"? It's not as "buzz word" as it was in the late 90s, but though the term Golden Triangle may not have been known in the cities which it comprised (Toronto-Montreal-Ottawa), it was definitely a well understood term in the West, and was part of several Preston Manning speaches.

CMAs as opposed to cities[edit]

It seems that major urban centres have been left from the CMA list due to the classification of CMA. Cities like Brampton, Mississauga, Oakville, and Burlington are considered are major cities in the Golden horseshoe, so there should be a ranking of cities as opposed to cmas. (Parihav 23:32, 20 June 2007 (UTC))

I agree with your concern and have taken the liberty to change the CMA section to Municipalities and list the 16 municipalities (cities) that have populations of 100,000+. --JackHanlon 19:25, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Origin of 'Horsehoe'[edit]

I was wondering if the origin of the term 'horseshoe' is also attributed to Horseshoe Falls in Niagara Falls?

  • It has to do with the Western-end of Lake Ontario, which Hamilton, Ontario is a center of, is shaped like a horseshoe. Nhl4hamilton 04:44, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

My recent reversion[edit]

I just (tried to) reverted a series of changes made by IP 24.141.134.116. The reason I did this is that: I didn't see any referenced justification; there were a series of changes made; and the changes were made by an un-registered user. Anyone watching should check my reversion and the original edits - if I have made a mistake, I offer my apologies and thanks here! Regards. Franamax (talk) 04:32, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Other Great Lakes Urban Agglomerations[edit]

We should include Milwaukee with Chicago if we're gonna start combining cities around the Great Lakes. Unlike the cities around Lake Ontario, these metro areas are actually contiguous. Maybe we could call this new area, which will be similarly defined by locals trying to make their cities seem larger and more important than they actually are, "The Silver U", or maybe even "The Platinum Penis". I'm drafting the article as you read this. --Antigrandiose (talk) 02:14, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you inserted this section into the middle. Anyways, I'm not sure what you are referring to... The Golden Horseshoe is a political area in Ontario, and thousands of reliable sources attest to its existence. I don't think it has anything to do with having the city with the biggest penis. Also, aside from Niagara Falls, Barrie and narrow greenbelts, the GTA is contiguous from Hamilton to Oshawa and Lake Ontario to Newmarket. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 06:51, 29 March 2010 (UTC)


It was originally put after the section that had a sentence that began, "IF the golden horseshoe includes Buffalo, New York...." I thought it related to that section nicely, although it seems as if I’d committed a faux padia.

I was being facetious. My intent was to have a teaching moment by parodying the promotional tone of this article. Also, and I know I'm partially to blame for this, but let's stop talking about penises. It's just that if western Lake Ontario reminds some people of a horseshoe then, oh well, Lake Michigan reminds me of something else. But back to my main point: it's easy to combine areas and make them seem larger than they are. I could be wrong, and I'll be the first to admit if I am, but I can't seem to find any other articles that combine distinct metro areas like this one does. (Regions don't count). Just because some cat who makes dishwashers thinks that a section of a great lake is a distinct region doesn’t make it so.

Even the name has the ring of promotionalism. It makes me think of the Golden Nugget, the Golden Corral, or--and this is regionally relevant--the Golden Corridor.

If the State of California were to merge (you know, like Toronto does) Orange and San Diego Counties, it would add over three million people to the LA region. (I would propose we call it La Costa Ora, by the way). Also, as I originally stated, if you were to put everything from Michigan City, IN to Bayside, WI within the sphere of Chicago (also contiguous with a few greenbelts), it would add about two million people to my proposed Platinum Penis region. (Sorry, I slipped).--Antigrandiose (talk) 04:25, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

If those cities were in Ontario or Canada they wouldn't have nearly as many people as they do now because Canada doesn't have census metropolitan areas that are 25-35 thousand square km's in area. how many metro areas in the US cover less than the area the horseshoe area around Toronto covers ? Montreal and Vancouver would easily each add 1.5-2.5 million people to their metro populations just by adopting the generous standards south of the border. with Toronto all those cities around it are well connected to it. places like oshawa and a couple other 100 thousand population cities around it that aren't in Toronto's greater area make it more laughable that anyone would think the horseshoe area is not a better representation. Denver and houston are 2 other examples of cities with areas that legitimize Toronto's claim to the horseshoe area.
When the Detroit-Toronto-Buffalo area becomes even more integrated I'm sure it will rank near the top of lists of urban regions in North America. I think many Americans will be surprised by just how large Canadian metro cities really are due to the sizeable difference in the definitions of such areas between the two countries. In Europe many cities like Athens and Berlin would benefit from the US way of characterizing such regions.Grmike (talk) 01:34, 13 July 2010 (UTC)grmike
Those who wish to persue the context more should read Shape of the City: Understanding Toronto's Urban Sprawl by John Sewell. Amongst its interesting history of the city from 1945 to 1990 is the concept of how Toronto became the way it is today. The entire book essentially boils down things as all the cities around Toronto being sprawl of Toronto. The minor villages located in many of these places (Long Branch, Pickering Village, Port Credit, etc.) existed more or less as is up until 10 years before "the blob" (as I call it) consumed them. They swelled in size in the years leading up, and as the fringes reached them, new subdivisions were planned within each concession. All of these places serve Toronto as bedroom communities (though this is starting to change). Only Hamilton, Oshawa and Barrie have grown independently. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 02:14, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
This has little to do with the article, which needs to be based on reliable sources (WP:RS), not our own opinions -- we call that 'original research', see WP:OR. If you want to talk about new ideas, you need to find a forum and this is not a forum. Most of us make this sort of mistake when we're new here, no problem. Dougweller (talk) 10:38, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
I added the {{notaforum}} template at the top of this talk page to prevent any more discussions like this here. Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 03:37, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Subregion[edit]

Someone changed the settlement type in the infobox from "Subregion" to "Urban agglomeration". The Golden Horseshoe and especially the Greater Golden Horseshoe are absolutely not an urban agglomeration. It is not continuous and contains a lot of rural farmland between non-connected urban centres. UrbanNerd (talk) 01:38, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

  1. ^ "Ontario Populaton Projections, 2004-2031". Retrieved 2006-09-13. 
  2. ^ "Commentary on: Neptis report, "Economic Influences on Population Growth and Housing Demand in the Greater Golden Horseshoe"" (PDF). Retrieved 2006-09-13. 
  3. ^ http://geo.international.gc.ca/can-am/buffalo/rightnav/intro_goldenhorse-en.asp