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WikiProject Middle-earth (Rated B-class, High-importance)
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This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle-earth, which aims to build an encyclopedic guide to J. R. R. Tolkien, his legendarium, and related topics. Please visit the project talk page for suggestions and ideas on how you can improve this and other articles.

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(moved here from before TOC) -- Elphion (talk) 23:27, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

We need a picture: they have a good one at Encyclopedia of Arda---Ricimer


I'm almost certain that JRR Tolkien never used the phrase 'Gondorian' in the books - he would have used Gondor, Gondor's or men of Gondor where appropriate. Astrokey44 01:32, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

'Gondorian' is used occasionally by Tolkien - e.g., in 'Cirion and Eorl' ('In the days of Cirion Angrenost was still manned by a guard of Gondorians') and the preface to 'The Adventures of Tom Bombadil' (where Firiel is described as a 'Gondorian name, of High-elvish form'). Rdwperl (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 17:26, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Instead of speculating... someone just get an e-book and hit CTRL-F


Gondor was located to the south of Rohan and to the west of Mordor, on the Bay of Belfalas. Actually Rohan was part of Gondor in early TA. Bryan 14:06, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps we should say, "at the end of the Third Age, Gondor was located..." john k 17:24, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


Couldn't country also apply? It was used but replaced. Uthanc 01:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC) 'Kingdom' is the most precise term, and contains more information than 'country', 'realm', etc. (talk) 03:37, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Better map?[edit]

Any way we could get a better map, which shows the different regions of Gondor? john k 17:41, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

It would have been ideal to create such a map and add it, but as far as I know all user-created Middle-earth maps were deleted some time ago as derivative work, so now we can only use those drawn by Christopher Tolkien, and only sparcingly, under fair use. His map of "Gondor, Mordor and Rohan" accompaining The Return of the King could still be uploaded and included, I hope. Súrendil 20:29, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Derivative work, eh? If Karen Wynne Fonstad can write a whole book of derivative maps, I don't see how we can be prevented from making our own. Did she get some kind of special permission? Pay royalties to the Tolkien Estate? Also, could we add a cut down version of Christopher Tolkien's map, detailing just the Gondor part of it? As it stands, the map is mostly useless. john k 20:53, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Er, also, the map we are currently using is not, in fact, Christopher Tolkien's at all. john k 20:56, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
I do not know the intricacies, but see the discussion at Commons. Many deletions are recorded here. You can also be interested in the current discussion going on WT:Me. I'm not sure about the status of the present map, as well as a couple of others, and I fear that they also may be deleted. Sigh. Súrendil 21:20, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is really becoming a terrible source for images on many subjects. It's quite irritating. john k 21:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
En, by the way, has a different policy from commons - I'm not sure that what is forbidden on the latter would be forbidden here. john k 21:59, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
When it comes to art, just because you draw something yourself doesn't mean it's not derivative of someone else's work. All maps of Gondor are based on those originally drawn by CJRT, which in turn were based on the sketch maps developed by his father as work on the book progressed. Even if more detail is drawn in, a new map would still be based on the older work and be therefore derivative. We can therefore only use the maps under the non-free media policy, and they can't be freely licensed until LoTR itself falls into the public domain round about 2072 or so.
This is not the same situation as the Nasmith paintings. Since all maps must be at least derivative work, they're not replaceable.
Nonfree media cannot be hosted at the Commons, which is why ME maps will always be deleted from there. That doesn't prevent us from using them here. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:15, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
So, what you're saying is that there's no particular reason not to use user-created maps here? john k 00:09, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
No, there's a very good reason not to use user-created maps. To the extent they show locations not mapped in the officially published version, they're original research. And if they show no such locations, there's no good reason to use editor-created maps instead of the originals. Those published in the more elaborate editions of LoTR are of very high quality.
Despite what I said above, I think it would be rather difficult to get them past the nonfree policy anyway. This is a work of fiction. When a place is described that is not shown in the accompanying maps, then the only information we really have is a verbal description. That makes it very difficult to argue that #8 of the policy applies. It cannot be "detrimental to [the readers'] understanding" of the topic to omit a map where there never was a map to begin with, but only a verbal description. It might be possible to successfully argue along those lines, so I left the possibility open, but I wouldn't be optimistic.
You'd need to pay particular attention to licensing issues. In a derivative of a copyrighted work, the underlying work must be fair use, but alterations to it are owned by whomever made them, and these alterations must be acceptably licensed. TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:40, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Would it be OR to show places not mapped on the official maps, but which Fonstad, for instance, extrapolated from the text? I don't think this would fall under OR. But I agree that using the LOTR map would probably make more sense. The main point is that we should have a map in this article. 23:53, 28 August 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by John Kenney (talkcontribs)
Not OR then, but it would then be derivative of someone else's work instead of CJRT's. They also run into the problem of being genuinely representative of the work. In many cases they're not, or at least include a good deal of information invented by the artist that didn't exist in the book. That makes it hard to justify them as illustrations of book-based subjects rather than articles on the artist or the artist's works. TCC (talk) (contribs) 17:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, maps are more or less permissible here on Wikipedia (provided they're not direct scans from copyrighted books), but not on Commons (which has stricter standards). Unfortunately, a lot of maps were moved to Commons, where they were deleted... AnonMoos 08:16, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Where does it say that? What you're saying is certainly true of real-world maps. Since they're all ultimately based on information that's common property, a redrawn map is perfectly acceptable. We are not in the same situation with a map of a fictional landscape. TCC (talk) (contribs) 17:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Maps are not permissible on Wikipedia. The Middle-earth article states "The Tolkien Estate maintains the position that the geographical layout of Middle-earth or any other places in the imaginary universe created by J.R.R. Tolkien was the intellectual property of J.R.R. Tolkien and subsequently is that of his heirs. The Tolkien Estate has therefore restricted the publishing of maps to those authorized by the Estate and legally pursues anyone who publishes any maps, including self-made works, on the internet." That is a sentence I have added a while ago, paraphrasing an email I have received from the lawyers representing the Tolkien Estate concerning the extensive map collections on my websites in 2004. ♆ CUSH ♆ 18:34, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Articles for deletion[edit]

This article was nominated for deletion on 26 October 2007 with the outcome of speedy keep. Capitalistroadster 01:55, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I found the article on Lebennin relevant when researching the metaphorical significance of Tolkien's poem "Lebennin", and support keeping the article independent from the article on Gondor. Allisonrandal (talk) 11:00, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

A merger wouldn't affect your ability to find that information. Typing Lebennin into a search engine would still bring you to the relevant section of a Wikipedia article or list. Click on Utumno for an example. Carcharoth (talk) 14:14, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Dúnedain kingdom[edit]

Shouldn't the introduction of this article say that Gondor was a Dúnadan kingdom (singular) instead of the plural Dúnedain? I am not an active collaborator of this Wikipedia, so I don't dare change it :). Regards.-- (talk) 20:08, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe it's meant to be a kingdom of the men of the west, and as such should be plural. -- Bryan (talk|commons) 13:24, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Ah yes, and of course to say "bee-hive" is incorrect since one bee doesn't make a hive, it should be "bees-hive"...--2001:A60:150B:7301:2C3D:4A8F:260F:B2B0 (talk) 23:03, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
I believe this point is now moot. -- Elphion (talk) 23:25, 10 June 2015 (UTC)


In what way is Anfalas a promontory? Unless there is some obscure definition of the word promontory that for some reason cannot be found in any dictionary, it seems incorrect to describe Anfalas as one. Maitreya (talk) 09:06, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Good catch -- the article was incorrect. I've changed it to read "the shoreline between the rivers Lefnui and Morthond" -- Elphion (talk) 13:32, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

It sounds like someone was confusing Anfalas with Andrast. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 18:34, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Confused Regions[edit]

The section on regions has no apparent order. I propose to re-sort it alphabetically. Are there any objections? BTW, I assume cut-&-paste will not affect the "anchor" tags. (talk) 07:16, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

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