Talk:Grand Ducal Family of Luxembourg
|WikiProject Luxembourg||(Rated B-class, High-importance)|
Though they aren't in fact royal, the word is generally used in preference to 'princely' ÉÍREman 03:37 May 8, 2003 (UTC)
As a courtesy, possibly, but the precise term may matter as well. I know the issue came up repeatedly with regard to the princely houses of India, who kept trying to pull fast ones in being referred to as more than "his highness", getting more than the right number of guns in a salute, etc., not just from vanity but to entrench themselves further and better. I remember they got it right in an opening scene in Roman Holiday, but that in recent (post princely) times many rajahs have been misdescribed as "royal" in modern newspaper articles. So, while understanding the courtesy and respect suitable for ordinary conversation, isn't this an important technical protocol point with real ramifications and implications? If so, what is the official line found in such things as the Almanach de Gotha? PML.
Made some changes. This needs context. Now it's just a list of people. If I stepped on any toes with my edits please change it back. --DanielCD 22:34, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Why are some Grand Dukes listed in French (Jean and not John, Henri and not Henry) and others in English (William instead of Guillaume) ? What is the rule ? 22.214.171.124 17:59, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
- There is no good rule. But most Kings have english names in Wikipedia. --Henrygb 16:53, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I have proposed splitting the section on the Line of Succession to the article Line of succession to the Luxembourgian Throne. Since this material is only partially related to the topic, and it takes up a sizeable part of the article, it would be best if it were divided to form its own article. Furthermore, it means that people navigating by Template:Order of succession by country would go to an article dedicated to the topic, rather than one about the family of the current Grand Duke.
There may also be grounds to split off the section on the past Grand Dukes and Duchesses, but that's not nearly as pressing. Bastin 12:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- I concur. —Nightstallion (?) 06:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
What happened to "Prince of Parma"?
Why did the Grand Ducal family of Luxembourg renounce the title Prince of Parma? Tom126.96.36.199 23:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Princes of Parma are a cadet branch of the spanish royal house. When the monarchy was restored in 1975 the new constitution only recognised the current King, the King's parents, the King's sister and his descendents as member of the royal house. All other cadet branches of the royal house are not recognised as 'royals'. They were recently designated as grandees of spain entitled to the style of His/Her Excellency Don.... However, many princes of parmas who held the title before the new restriction were implemented claim they are still entitled to the style and use it. The spanish government has not taken any formal step to prevent it. This may be a reason for the Grand Ducal family discontinuing use of title of prince of parma. They did, however, continue to use the style of royal highness presumably as a royal highness'es have higher precedence than grand ducal highness'es. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 23:13, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
House of Nassau-Weilburg?
Is there a source that says that the former Grand Duke Jean and his agnatic descendents bear the House name of 'Nassau-Weilburg rather than that of Bourbon-Parma? I have seen this 'fact' bandied around on wikipedia and elsewhere, but I haven't seen a single Grand-Ducal arrete as regards the actual name of the Grand-Ducal House. Yes; I'm aware that Grand Duke Jean renounced for himself and his descendants the titles of the House of Bourbon-Parma, (although he apparently re-adopted them in 1995; the present Hereditary Grand Duke Guillaume bearing amongst his titles 'Prince of Bourbon-Parma', and the arms of Bourbon-Anjou-though oddly enough not those of Bourbom-Parma being included as an inescutcheon in the Greater Arms of Grand Duke Henri, adopted in 2000.) and yes; I'm fully aware that members of the Grand Dual family who have renounced their rights to the succession have adopted 'Nassau' as either a surname or as part of a title, and yes, I'm fully aware that the British (Windsor), Dutch (Oranje-Nassau), Austro-Hungarian (Habsburg-Lothringen) and Russian (Romanov) ruling (or former ruling) Houses bear those names via a female ancestor; but that doesn't necessarily mean that's the case with the Luxembourgeois Grand-Ducal family. Can anyone shed any more light on this one?JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 19:52, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
- Names and titles of individual members and former members of the dynasty have been specified in various acts. The grand-ducal dynasty itself is now referred to as the House of Luxembourg-Nassau. FactStraight (talk) 01:45, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
- I have seen no official answer to that question. The presumed answer, widely discussed at online royalty forums, is that the unprecedented 1981 marriage of then Hereditary Grand Duke Henri to a commoner, Maria Teresa Mestre, although dynastic in Luxembourg by the 7 November 1980 authorization of Grand Duke Jean, was not accepted as dynastic by Carlos Hugo, Duke of Parma in exile. Nonetheless, that decision was respected by Grand Duke Jean who, in solidarity with his son's wife, however, discontinued for himself and his house use of the titles and arms of the House of Bourbon-Parma, and declared 28 July 1987 that the reigning dynasty of Luxembourg was Nassau, not Bourbon-Parma. But when Jean's son, Henri, became Grand Duke and declared his eldest son by Maria Teresa, Guillaume, to be the Hereditary Grand Duke on 18 December 2000, he took the opportunity to exercise his own prerogative as a sovereign fons honorum and conferred the princely Parmesan title on Guillaume in defiance of the Bourbon duke. Presumably, now that the current Duke of the Parma is also married to a commoner, this familial breach is moot, if not healed. FactStraight (talk) 04:48, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
What is the source for the change in the name of the grand ducal House? (Not that I doubt that for one second; I just want to see a source.) So; presumably; the name has been changed a second time to Luxembourg-Nassau? I suppose the inclusion of the Bourbon arms on the greater coat of arms is simply another example of Grand Duke Henri exercising his rights as a sovereign to do whatever the heck he likes as regards matters both armorial and titular, but you must admit it is a bit odd if he doesn't regard his House as being part of the House of Bourbon, but like you said; maybe the familial breach has been healed, so to speakJWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 05:06, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
- Since the structure of the House of Bourbon is such that its head doesn't have authority over its members in regard to Bourbon (France may be another thing; it is only a genealogical designation), there is no denying that Henri and his agnatic relatives are members of that house. By definition, all legitimate male-line descendants of Louis XIV are members of that house, no exceptions. Henri is, however, free to choose the designation of his branch of the house which is sovereign over Luxembourg, wherein no other head as a say in his affairs. I think that they have actually been purposefully unclear about making a definitive proclamation on the name. It is a fact though that they are also the "House of Luxembourg" because the family actually reigns there. I have *m* idea though; it would be nice though to see them call themselves Bourbon-Nassau ;) Because they are junior members of a larger house it is no surprise that they are highlighting only what they have absolute jurisdiction over. Seven Letters 18:31, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Since the structure of the House of Bourbon is such that its head doesn't have authority over its members in regard to Bourbon
You could say exactly the same thing about the House of Wettin and the House of Lippe, and yet the Royal House of the United Kingdom (and the commonwealth realms) is the House of Windsor and the Royal House of Belgium is the House of Belgium; and Queen Beatrix is a member of the House of Orange-Nassau; as was the previous Queen; despite neither of them belonging to the House of Orange-Nassau agnatically. Moreover; what on earth do you mean 'in regard to Bourbon'?
By definition, all legitimate male-line descendants of Louis XIV are members of that house, no exceptions
-But if Grand Duke Jean renamed his House by grand ducal decree, because he's the fount of honour; the name is whatever he says it is, regardless of the fact that their agnatic descent is of the House of Bourbon, and in this instance, he renamed it to Luxembourg-Nassau, so that's exactly what it is.
wherein no other head as a say in his affairs
-Not quite as cut-and-dry as that. Most german Royal Houses had House laws, as did some other Houses throughout Europe, but that was a german concept that a head of state could certainly ignore, and at any rate due to the French origin of the House of Bourbon I don't think there have ever been any 'House Law' of the House of Bourbon.
It is a fact though that they are also the "House of Luxembourg" because the family actually reigns there.
-yes, but that's a territorial designation rather than a House name. Sort of like how the Swedish Royal Family could be described as the 'House of Sweden'; but they are actually called the House of Bernadotte.
it would be nice though to see them call themselves Bourbon-Nassau
-I would like to see this too (I'm all for Houses keeping their paternal House designation); but the grand-ducal decree states otherwise.
Because they are junior members of a larger house it is no surprise that they are highlighting only what they have absolute jurisdiction over. -Whilst he is of course harking back to the titles and arms used by his patrilineal ancestors, Grand Duke Henri; in giving the title of 'Prince of Bourbon-Parma' to his eldest son and in re-adopting the Bourbon inescutcheon in his arms is simply exercising his sovereign right as a sovereign to do whatever the hell he likes as regards these matters.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 20:59, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
- Although Elizabeth II is head of the British House of Windsor and Beatrix refers to the Dutch Royal House as Orange-Nassau they are, respectively, still members of the Houses of Wettin and Lippe. Nothing can change that. It doesn't mean they have to use the name. Regarding Bourbon, Louis Alphonse can't say who is or who isn't a Bourbon. If he were king, he may be able to say who is or who is not a prince of France. If the Luxembourgish family calls their branch Luxembourg-Nassau, that's what it is, but they are still a cadet branch of the house of Bourbon. A genealogical head (Bourbon) has no say over what name they use but an actual head (like the Duke of Parma) can say whether or not they are (Paremsan) princes of that particular line. As for territorial designation... What was Nassau? What was Bourbon? What is Luxembourg (even though they have Nassau tacked on)? The grand ducal decree does not change their membership in the larger house of Bourbon, it just defines their branch and its scope is limited only to that. Of course, they'll do what they want, nonsensical or otherwise. Seven Letters 22:04, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Elizabeth II is head of the British House of Windsor
-Not quite. That's a continental concept that isn't used in Britain, at least not as regards Royal Houses anyway. She can of course issue royal warrants as regards the House of Windsor and its membership; et cetera, but this is more due to her position as sovereign of the United Kingdom rather than a position of headship of the house that she does not in fact occupy, and at any rate; the only reason that it is of any legal significance anyway is because all the members of the House of Windsor happen to be British Citizens.
'they are, respectively, still members of the Houses of Wettin and Lippe'
If the Luxembourgish family calls their branch Luxembourg-Nassau, that's what it is, but they are still a cadet branch of the house of Bourbon
-I agree; of course, but more from a geneaological perspective than a legal one. What a House's actual agnatic descent is not neccesarily the same as what it is in law.
I don't know if you've noticed, but it seems that Houses tend to only adopt the names of their female ancestors when the original House has become extinct or the descent of the main line has become non-dynastic. (this is certainly the case as regards the Houses of Romanov, Habsburg-Lorraine, and Orange-Nassau and the Luxemborgeois grand ducal House), but it does not seem to be the case where there are plenty of living agnates of the original house still left alive. (For example, the sons of Queen Margrethe II of Denmark and their children are not members of the House of Oldenburg, because that House is not yet extinct.)JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 22:18, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
House of Luxembourg-Nassau
Seeing as its been shown that the House designation of the Luxembourgeois grand ducal House is indeed the 'House of Luxembourg-Nassau'; might it not be a good idea to rename this article accordingly?JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 21:59, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
- Since the two entirely overlap I would leave it as it is now. If, at some point, there were members of this House of Luxembourg-Nassau who were not considered members of the Grand Ducal Family then I would have two articles. Seven Letters 22:05, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
The members of the family are listed as "Bourbon-Parma" in Wikipedia. Should we tag that as "(de facto)" and add "Luxembourg-Nassau (officially)" as well? --YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII (talk) 15:19, 15 May 2015 (UTC)