Talk:Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna of Russia

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Featured article Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna of Russia is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophy This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on July 17, 2013.
Article milestones
Date Process Result
December 13, 2006 WikiProject peer review Reviewed
December 29, 2006 Good article nominee Listed
February 24, 2007 Featured article candidate Promoted
Current status: Featured article

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Assassin's Creed Chronicles: Russia Trivia?[edit]

@Bookworm857158367:, @DrKay: How is she appearing at the 2016 game Assassin's Creed Chronicles: Russia a trivia?[1] She is a playable character possessing assassin's ability.[2] She was not only a damsel in distress.Supermann (talk) 00:20, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

This is not an article that should or does include every single reference to Anastasia Nikolaevna in books, film, video game or song. It's a featured article, not a list of pop culture references. Of course, you could start a separate article -- List of references to Grand Duchess Anastasia in pop culture -- if you are so inclined. But please do not keep adding the video game reference to this article. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 02:19, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
Could she have a lot of references in films, video games though? I find that hard to believe. There is no sign of her influence in games at all. Adding mine shouldn't hurt. Movie wise, they are not award-winning and outdated. Despite its so-called feature status, the Influence on culture section was marked "needs additional citations for verification." It's time to come up with a way to remove that message and display the variety of her influence. Supermann (talk) 02:45, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
It's not appropriate in a featured article. It's one of dozens or hundreds of such references and they can't be listed. This has already been debated and the consensus is not to include them. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 03:14, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
Could you pls point me to that archived discussion on consensus? Plus, consensus could change.Supermann (talk) 03:17, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
It was when the article was up for Featured Article status and was edited accordingly. Other people tried to include video game appearances and it was edited out by consensus. Look, this is trivia and just not important enough to include. There are lots of video games or pop songs or children's books with Anastasia mentions. I'd suggest that you start a separate article that does list pop culture references to the Romanovs. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 03:52, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
Why don't you start if you have access to all that data? Pls find me the other folks who have tried and I could simply add in the 2016 one. They must know more than I know. Plus, are you suggesting a LIST article would be subject to less scrutiny? Many thanks.Supermann (talk) 03:58, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
I'm not interested in compiling the information for that article and I don't think it's important. If you do, a separate article would be the way to go about it. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 04:50, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
I saw the discussion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Grand_Duchess_Anastasia_Nikolaevna_of_Russia regarding the removal of a 2004 book. But I haven't seen discussion of games which could be far more engaging. On this particular talk page, it says, "Even so (that it's a featured article), if you can update or improve it, please do so." Now, why don't @Awadewit: and @Ceoil: chime in here and take the initiative to move forward on their original suggestions?? Do we really have a lot of references of Anastasia across books, films, games, or song that should and could have been unearthed? Supermann (talk) 18:38, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
I dont think inclusion of the video game character is useful here, although it should definitely be mentioned in the Assassins Creed article. "In culture" sections are notoriously difficult to balance, to find the correct pitch and convey the extent to which the topic has permeated a wider culture is hard; then there is the matter of which examples to choose that are significant and appropriate to the topic. I get where you are coming from Supermann - it was with heavy heart that I voted exclusion of The Pogues "Rum, Sodomy and the Lash" album cover from the The Raft of the Medusa, but in that context it fell under WP:TRIVIA; there were better egs to use. The problem is that unless inclusion is not woven to a more general presentation of the influence left behind by a life or work, you are left with a disjointed "and x also" bulleted list. Ceoil (talk) 22:24, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
@Ceoil: I appreciate the example you have given. I learn new things every day. But I don't know how to weave the game into the article without being original research and violating copyright. The tough economic reality facing journalists is real. That's why we have fewer sources to cite these days. If we don't house stuff on wikipedia, things will become more difficult to find for the ordinary folks. I don't want to go back and forth on this since my experience told me that people who cite policies, style guidelines here will be less inclined to IAR. But could you please guide me how to create a list for major Anastasia appearances so that the collection could exist somewhere? Many thanks. Supermann (talk) 00:04, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
Yeah grand. You had better read WP:COI however, and reflect on how wide and far a shoe-horning attitude might get you. If you don't mind me saying, your attitude towards Bookworm857158367 sucks, and you come across as a user, which you now above freely admit. Wont get you far here. Ceoil (talk) 00:10, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
What COI did I have here? Extremely confused. Could you pls elaborate? @Ceoil: Thanks. Supermann (talk) 01:03, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
Well, you are saying you have a single interest in this article - to put in mention of Assassin's Creed. But look at it from Bookworm's point of view; she put in the countless hours tracing sources and probably forking out for books, reading them all and then editing it all together to bring the page to where it is now. Probably you are talking in the hundreds of hours. So grand. But. Because the subject matter is widely known there are drive-by editors, like you, wanting to insert passing mentions in books, TV Series, album art covers or video games, or whatever. Some are well intentioned fans, some employed by the video game company, but in 99% of cases they are unskilled in wiki editing and could care less about the target article, so rather than contextualise the addition you get stuff like: 'Anastasia also appears for 1 second in splash screen of the Atari (I'm 103 years old) version of Wrestler Psycho Sid Vicious video game', etc etc. And this get bolted on, in disjointed sentence fragments, ad naseum, day after day, year after year. You used above the rational "She is a playable character possessing assassin's ability.[2] She was not only a damsel in distress!" - first of all you seem to be confusing actual reality with the universe of the game, second of all...who cares, except for enthusiasts of the specific game.
And there is a whole bunch of other mentions of her through pop culture - do we devote half the article to getting in as many as possible - the obv solution is that the article presents a summary view, that she has "permeated the culture" and spin out the list as a sub article that people can add to their hearths content for years to come.
I hope I'm not being too hard on you Supermann, its good that you are talking here and not edit waring; I'm just presenting how it seems for the point of view of the article writer dealing this stuff. Ceoil (talk) 07:24, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
I'm just a well-intentioned fan, after finishing the game under 15 hours. It was my first dabbling into the Assassin's Creed series after watching Michael Fassbender's movie of the same name. I started off with the Chinese episode first and then India and then moved on to Russia and eventually found out about Anastasia which harks back to the China one. I really feel like learning a lot about history in a fictional setting. And this is how new readers of the articles could get interested in figures decades old from their generation. Don't belittle games because you don't play them. Moreover, pls look at the range of my other contributions and you will know I have no COI, although I lament the fact that my earlier years weren't as active as these past two years and only most recently got educated a lot on policies and style guidelines. Of course I appreciate Bookworm's creation, but I don't like people being too territorial. I get where you guy are coming from and it has really been my observation that WP:IAR wasn't used as frequently as I had hoped. So as a gesture of compromise, if everyone agrees a cultural list could be made for Anastasia, I feel like I could at least contribute on that particular game. But I don't know enough about other works involving her, given you have just removed two other paragraphs under. So that's why I had asked if a list of more than say two items could indeed be generated without being subject to speedy deletion. I really encourage you to play the game and you could skip the India episode. Don't use 103 years old as an excuse since playing video games could only help improve your reaction time. Supermann (talk) 15:16, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
Are you only interested in this particular video game? If so, mention it in the article on the video game and link it back to the main Anastasia article. If you want to do a list of references to the Romanovs in all media, that would probably interest other people. Start a stub article, with appropriate citations, and other people who know more about other references in movies, books, songs, TV shows, video games, etc., will eventually add to it. There are a couple of other spinoff articles about the Romanovs because they don't fit in the main article. One is on Romanov impostors, one on canonization of the Romanovs, etc. I am a newspaper reporter. I am well aware of the problems facing journalists worldwide. But I doubt a video game would get a mention in anything other than a specialty magazine/blog these days, anyway. It just doesn't belong in this particular article. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 20:30, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
That particular video game is the only Anastasia encounter I have had. And Anastasia is already linked there. See Assassin's Creed Chronicles: Russia. I don't have access/knowledge of all the Romanovs appearance across all media. That's why I am hesitant to begin the list creation. But if more experienced editors take the lead, I could at least take care of that particular game. As long as the list gets mentioned in this particular article, that's good enough for me.Supermann (talk) 20:39, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
A see also could probably go at the head of the culture section in the main article. I don't have time to write that list but someone else probably could. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 21:12, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
I'd support a dedicated spin off article, prominently linked under the "influences" header on this page. Its first incarnation doesn't have to be fancy. Ceoil (talk) 10:06, 30 July 2017 (UTC)