Talk:1846 Havana hurricane

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Inaccuracies[edit]

Sigh...where do I begin? For starters, why don't we try finding some sources for the "facts" section. Jdorje 18:53, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

How about sources in general that are online? I am getting to hate that encyclopedia of hurricanes. Not all of us have that, and it hard to verify that information we (at least I) don't have. Hurricanehink 19:57, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Merge[edit]

Anyone still opposed? Hurricanehink 21:41, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Opposed to a merge? Yes, I don't think this one should be merged. By all accounts (I did a quick google print search) this was a monolithic storm, and satisfies both notability and quantity-of-info criteria. My complaint is just about the sloppy writing and research. Jdorje 22:14, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, that was meant for another article. As you can probably see based on your watchlist, I'm going through the articles and adding List of notable Atlantic hurricanes, and that was meant for another storm. You are completely right, this is an important storm based on what's written. I still, however, want some online souces... Hurricanehink 22:20, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Strongly opposed to any merge. Sure, the information isn't great but it isn't a very well-known storm anyway and information will be scarce for historic hurricanes. It is far and away article-worthy. CrazyC83 04:00, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

917 mbar[edit]

What's the source for the 917 mbar pressure? Is it from the book reference? The online reference given does not seem useful since it links to a directory of PDF files; what am I supposed to do here? I find the 917 mbar hard to reconcile with the 1900 Galveston Hurricane where a measruement of 930? mbar was considered "obviously in error" - how can these two "facts" be explained? — jdorje (talk) 02:09, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

The directory of PDF files gives the information from the article. When I added that information, I just linked that at the bottom so I wouldn't have to link every last page for every little detail. Just to let you know, the pressure link is located here. Hurricanehink 02:12, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:1846 Havana hurricane/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: TropicalAnalystwx13 (talk · contribs) 22:04, 21 January 2014 (UTC) Secret account

I'll be reviewing this since you decided to rush the lead instead of letting me do it tonight. :) TropicalAnalystwx13 (talk) 22:04, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

  • "The first indications of a the formation of a disturbance were first noted on 5 October in the Caribbean Sea, but little else was known until the storm approached Cuba on 10 October, where it brought extreme winds and the lowest known atmospheric pressure of the time – 938 mbar (27.70 inHg) – a record which remained unbroken until the development of a later cyclone in 1924." - two issues; a) "a the"? b) this sentence is incredibly long. Try splitting it up.
  • "It entered an extratropical transition while situated over the state of New York on 13 October, producing intense Category 2-force winds and unusually little precipitation." - "over the start of" is not necessary.
  • "Eventually, the gale dissipated over the Canadian Maritimes the following day as a markedly weaker storm." - why eventually? Link "gale" and "Canadian Maritimes"; people are a lot more likely to not know where those are compared to the US states you linked.
  • The latter was already linked, and the former was used in the same manner as "hurricane" and "cyclone". Cloudchased (talk) 23:46, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
  • "Information on the hurricane's impact in Cuba was sparse due to a lack of existing historical records." - isn't it still? (was to is)
  • Bleh, I wanted consistency. Whatever. :( Cloudchased (talk) 23:46, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
  • "The storm inflicted over a hundred deaths, capsized dozens of ships, ruined crops, and collapsed many structures." - "inflicted" is a word typically associated with "damage" and reads weird when referring to deaths.
  • Changed to a plain "cause". Cloudchased (talk) 23:46, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
  • "In Key West, widespread destruction was noted, with 40 deaths and many vessels destroyed." - repetition between "destruction" and "destroyed".
  • "Structural destruction was also significant, with high floodwaters lifting many buildings off of their foundations and strong gusts flattening hundreds of others." - repetition with previous sentence regarding usage of "destruction".
  • esdfdepvgidhzsngUIAEDFF7889stjew FINE I FIXED IT. >:( Cloudchased (talk) 23:46, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
  • "As it tracked along the Middle-Atlantic coast, similar effects were reported: there, the gale inundated many areas, impeded communications, destroyed railroads and canals, and flattened structures." - remove the "there" before the colon.
  • There is no "there" before the colon, and why should I remove the there /after/ it? I don't see anything wrong with that. Cloudchased (talk) 23:46, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
  • "Even though no reliable wind measurements were available at the time, a separate study also estimated that it produced Category 5-strength winds, making it the first known storm to strike Cuba at such an intensity." - "Even though" creates repetition with "even so" in the previous sentence.
  • "Sand Key, which completely disappeared during the course of the hurricane, wholly re-emerged by December of that year, albeit not in its original position; meanwhile, ecological damage remained evident for decades in Key West." - do you mean submerged? It didn't just disappear, did it? D:
  • "The hurricane's origins can be traced to the central Caribbean Sea, south of Hispaniola, on 5 October." - the central Caribbean Sea encompasses that area south of Hispaniola, so I don't think that tidbit "south of Hispaniola" is necessary.
  • "During the late evening of 10 October, winds began to increase on the island of Cuba, culminating the following morning; while the strongest winds were originally in its northeastern sector, they were later noted in its northwest." - you need to clarify after the semi-colon that you're referring to the hurricane winds. Otherwise, it reads as if Cuba had its own winds.
  • ...and I bash other people for doing the same. :( Cloudchased (talk) 23:46, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
  • "Its eye presumably passed slightly east of Havana while maintaining anatmospheric pressure of 916 mbar (27.06 inHg),[5] accompanied by Category 5-force winds on the modern-day Saffir–Simpson hurricane wind scale,[6] defined as 1-minute maximum sustained winds of at least 157 mph (252 km/h)." - split into two sentences.
  • "The remarkably low pressure reading would have ranked it as the most intense tropical cyclone in recorded history at the time. However, a 1993 analysis by weather historian Jose Fernandez-Partagás calculated a corrected sea-level pressure at 938 mbar (27.70 inHg); however, even this higher measurement maintained the record as well." → "Despite the reading, a 1993 analysis by weather historian Jose Fernandez-Partagás calculated a corrected sea-level pressure at 938 mbar (27.70 inHg); even so, the value maintained the hurricane as the strongest in recorded history" or something like that.
  • Thanks for this, I was having trouble rewording this. Cloudchased (talk) 23:46, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
  • "It arrived at Key West the following morning of 11 October, soon after its departure from Cuba with undinimished intensity." - remove "following", add a comma after Cuba. Spellcheck.
  • I'll blame YE for this. :( Cloudchased (talk) 23:46, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
  • "he storm gradually meandered toward Tampa Bay, and eventually arrived on the late afternoon of 11 October, its effects persisting through the following morning." - "the late afternoon of 11 October" → "that afternoon".
  • "Southeasterly gusts persisted as the storm continued its northerly progression west of the East Coast of the United States." - the hurricane wasn't west of the East Coast of the United States, it was tracking up it.
  • It was inland but paralleling the coast... it's hard to put into words. I tried to reword it, but I'm not sure if I succeeded. :P Cloudchased (talk) 23:46, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

The above covers the lead and meteorological history. I'll review impact at another time. TropicalAnalystwx13 (talk) 03:05, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

As this review was abandoned by TropicalAnalystwx13, and it was ok with both him and Cloudchased to take this review over. I will do so today. Secret account 17:27, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

  • "little was known about the hurricane's impact in Cuba" if it's still the case change was to is.
  • " likely killed hundreds of individuals across the island" - "across the island" is redundant as we know the casualties happened in Cuba, remove.
  • Be careful of WP:OVERLINKING, Cuba is linked at least 5 times
  • I removed one instance which appeared twice in the same section, but otherwise Cuba's only linked once per section. Cloudchased (talk) 02:13, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
  • "Its storm surge scattered debris throughout the city swept many structures afloat upon high waters." missing connector
  • where the storm was apparently the most severe since 1824. - awkward wording, link to the 1824 hurricane?
  • No link, but I think it's article-worthy, so might eventually get one. Cloudchased (talk) 02:13, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
  • "fractured canals" How can a canal be "fractured"?
  • Were the 164 deaths in the United States?
  • "reports indicated a minimum of several dozen individuals died" awkward wording, better as "reports indicated the deaths of several dozen individuals"?
  • "Hospitals bore the brunt of the storm's damage, with one's wall and infirmary torn off." How did hospitals "bore the brunt" of the storms damage when damage was wide-spread. That doesn't seem extraordinary, merge to another sentence or reword/expand.
  • "In all, the hurricane toppled or obliterated 2792 residences in the city" In Havana or Güines? Clarify
  • 1258 trees in Havana and left 2314 individuals homeless? Source? If it "obliterated" nearly 2800 homes, isn't the number of homeless be higher?
  • "14 individuals at the Key West lighthouse" - I think a quick mention of Barbara Mabrity surviving the storm while losing five of her six children is warranted.
  • "many attempted to flee to higher ground but were unsuccessful in escaping the hurricane's wrath." So they were killed, injured or what? Clarify.
  • "warehouses received damage to a certain degree as well" - Reword
  • "High waters floated a camp stable 200 ft (61 m) from its initial location, floating its horses and mules to safety." How did they "float to safety" when they were swept away. Better clarification needed if they survived or not.
  • The stable literally floated upon the storm surge and landed them elsewhere. ;) Cloudchased (talk) 02:13, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
  • "all having been tossed away from the fort." tossed > swept
  • "obliterated several houses and flattened fences, causing little other damage." Isn't houses obliterated enough damage? Remove the second part of the sentence.
  • "At Savannah, Georgia, only one fatality occurred at sea, and damage to fences, roofs, and trees was inconsequential despite high winds,[10] with debris from the remnants of chinaberry trees littering the streets of the city." - The word only is redundant, and is "inconsequential" the best wording for this? It mentions the remnants of trees through the streets of the city, yet it indicates no damage from the storm. Reword or rephrase.
  • "The vessel Mutual Safety departed Charleston in the midafternoon of 10 October,[27] but soon encountered the storm and experienced severe injury." Injury sounds like a person got injured, reword to damage, midafternoon should be mid-afternoon
  • "The western part of Tradd Street, especially near Chisolm's Mill and South Bay's sidewalk, decayed as a result of wind and water, which also fractured the South Bay and East Battery walls." Is "decayed" the proper wording for this?
  • Can you make the references in alphabetical order per WP:MOS
  • My main concern is have you found any Spanish sources that reference that storm, especially its impact in Cuba to get a more accurate picture of the storm. There should be plenty of primary sources discussing the storm. I do understand that many of those sources are located in Cuba and it's almost impossible to get without traveling there but there might be a few in library archives throughout Florida.
  • I've checked; there's a whole lot of obscure Spanish literature, and the two Spanish sources mentioned are the most comprehensive available. However, information really hasn't been extracted from them, and I think there's way more than there is. Unfortunately, I don't speak Spanish, though since you do, I think you might be able to help with that. ;) There's also lots of English information in chapter three of Winds of Change: Hurricanes & the Transformation of Nineteenth-century Cuba by Louis A. Perez; I'll try to get my hands on it via an Interlibrary Loan, but most likely it'll be a few months before I can get it immediately, so I'll ask around. I was hoping that with ref #15 there'd be page numbers, but unfortunately Hink didn't supply any... if the two books could be translated and fully referenced in Harvard-citiation format, I'd be delighted. (hint hint) Cloudchased (talk) 02:14, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
  • I'll assume good faith on citation 15, maybe you could email the document to me and I'll extract anything useful as I do speak Spanish.
  • See above comment.

Secret account 20:21, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

I've fixed everything else you mentioned, by the way – anything without a reply is fixed. Cloudchased (talk) 02:15, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Spanish info from "Huracan de 1846"[edit]

  • In Havana, the hurricane damaged churches and four convents
  • Roofs, walls, and windows were damaged at the Real Universidad
  • Office of the Real Audiencia damaged, with doors and walls wrecked
  • Governor house was damaged, including the main gate, several destroyed walls, and Aztec lighting fixtures
  • The principal theatre in Havana was also damaged, as were post offices
  • Two military barracks were damaged (Walls and windows damaged). In one, the sump overflowed, contaminating the clean water supply.
  • A mental health hospital lost a wall and an infirmary, and several other hospitals sustained similar damage
  • Castillo de San Pedro de la Roca - walls and windows damaged, as was the building directing ship traffic
  • 2792 houses were knocked over or destroyed in Havana, while most others had damage to windows or walls; about 4,000 houses damaged were damaged between Havana and its suburbs
  • Dozens of damaged ships in the harbor of Havana, which wrecked sugar, tobacco, and other items onboard
  • 1258 trees downed in the city
  • 2314 people left homeless
  • Officials took up a collection to help residents who were affected on October 13 through the 28th, raising 8094 pesos
  • In Güines, the storm wrecked large amounts of guano, as well as damaging the local church, school, and hospital.
  • The width of the heaviest damage was about 70 to 80 miles across Cuba
  • Strong winds also recorded in Bahamas

A ton of boats were damaged or destroyed, and there is a huge list of people that were injured or killed, but there is just too long of a list to go through, sorry. It goes into detail by other areas outside of Havana, but it's just too much text. Hope some of this helps! ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 20:45, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks a ton for this, Hink! Now I just have to figure out how to cite this.... >:D Cloudchased (talk) 21:15, 29 January 2014 (UTC)