Talk:Great Purge

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Historiographical debates[edit]

Should there not be some mention of the intentionalist and revisionist arguments concerning the reasons for the Purges. NMO

A question[edit]

Years and years ago, I visited Moscow and went round the Metro with a group tour. Our guide pointed out a picture of Trotsky on the murals. Someone asked about that and she said that painting out Trotsky wasn't necessary - he just had to be made not too important. I've often wondered about this so thought I'd ask here - is this a myth or was she right? Blythwood (talk) 07:16, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Article broken by somebody who knows shit[edit]

For sake of drama style of writing the article was noticeably corrupted.

Simple example: "Their children were put in orphanages to be brought up as Soviet, with no knowledge of their origins." That's bullshit. If you are puzzled, please be puzzled for a sec and then look here for a hint. I will review the whole article later. - üser:Altenmann >t 07:18, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Another remark is indiscriminate reliance on Snyder. Let me recall three mayor criticisms of Snyder

  • Snyder basically said nothing new. He just rehashed what has already been said;
  • For the sake of neat picture he arbitrarily delineated "Bloodlands" both in space and in time, thus crippling historical and territorial context
  • His choice of language was excessively dramatic rather than scholarly. For example, he repeats "killings, killings, killings". Yes there were lots of Soviet killings. By this verbiage presents a distorted picture: there was much more deaths and drama and suffering besides immediate executions, and with longer lasting consequences. - üser:Altenmann >t 07:44, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

More of blunder: "Most victims of the NKVD shootings were men with families. Their wives and children were dealt with by the NKVD Order № 00486. " -- Of 140,000 arrested Poles over 110,000 were shot. In this math, no way most shootings were "men with families".

This is what I see quite often recently when wikipedia is edited by students who got an assignment to work on wikipedia, who care only of grades rather than connecting the dots and tying the knots. I am fixing here and there, but it seems that the dam is broken, horses are out of stable, and only a handful (hundreds) of GA and FA with staunch watchers will keep the shape. But topics about Soviet Union which nobody really cares about are in huge and increasing disarray. - üser:Altenmann >t 07:59, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Great Purge. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

You may set the |checked=, on this template, to true or failed to let other editors know you reviewed the change. If you find any errors, please use the tools below to fix them or call an editor by setting |needhelp= to your help request.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

If you are unable to use these tools, you may set |needhelp=<your help request> on this template to request help from an experienced user. Please include details about your problem, to help other editors.

Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 02:06, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Governments can not murder[edit]

I noticed that the autoarchiver for the talk page on this article was set to two months. Vast numbers of persons are controlled by money, just as vast numbers of persons fear death, and so this will introduce intrinsic bias and censorship on Wikipedia for politics, economics, and religion related pages.

This article has a link to Moscow Trials and Article 58 and so it gives a good idea of what governments can and often do when they twist 'due process of law'.

Nonetheless I have one quibble with the article. It says in the opening paragraph, 'It has been estimated between 600,000 and 1.2 million people were murdered by the Soviet government'. A murder is an illegal homicide. Since governments determine what the law is, by definition they can not murder.

The 'Great Purge' was also not 'genocide' as defined by international treaties after WWII. This is because lobbying and veto power by the Soviet Union after WWII made explicitly sure that politics and economics as legal criteria for mass executions by the government were not included in the legal definition of genocide when it was created.

Therefore, the mass extermination of the Russian people by the government of the Soviet Union during the time of the 'Great Purge' was not 'murder', because it was completely legal under the laws and court procedures of the Soviet Union at the time. (talk) 10:12, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

The strict legal definition isn't the only definition of 'murder' available. See for example genocide or democide. The definition the article uses is not Wikipedia's own original definition, it is a definition already established by others, and it seems you're taking issue with that definition, not the article's use of the word "murder". --BurritoBazooka (talk) 15:15, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
If people can use shifting definitions for the meaning of words then nothing is true and nothing is false. Sometimes Wikipedia uses the term 'weasel words' to refer to unclear language, referencing an untalking animal with the term to promote the idea that using unclear language as a rhetorical device is a bad thing. People proclaiming themselves to be courts when they are not actually courts in order to issue pejoratives is also very common. As far as replacing the word with 'killing' it would at least slightly imply that the actions were unorganized or not done en masse. Using the term 'execution' might at least slightly imply a viable and due process of law in the court system. Perhaps failure to find a proper word is the result of Newspeak. (talk) 18:51, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
As definysjes nea feroare, dan elk fan ús soe noch wêze prate Frysk - or some other old European language. :) Wouldn't it be nice if English speakers could agree on some central authority? Though I agree to change the wording to something like "died at the hands of the Soviet government" because some of these deaths could possibly be described as manslaughter, as debated in one of the cited texts. --BurritoBazooka (talk) 23:38, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
Pretty sure that inventing evidence and then executing people on the most spurious of grounds counts as murder. Maybe I'm wrong though, and while we're here, let's replace all the instances of 'torture' in the article with 'enhanced interrogation'. BTW, invoking linguistic nihilism just because the Anglophone world doesn't all use the same legal definition of a word is rather melodramatic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 02:15, 7 December 2016 (UTC)